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Magic System Discussion


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#41
Drakron

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How about using a Fatigue gauge instead of Mana, like in Arcanum for example?

Fighters would eventually grow tired from swinging their weapons and mages would get exhausted after casting spells. It's pretty even in the end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Issues are many, you can forget fast paced dungeon crawls with the system for example.

Star Wars d20 ties force powers with vitality so the system have been done to a point (since vitality appears to be a fatigue system), the issue is that the Force system was based on the Force and not in magic, in fact the vitality system is a way to keep a check in force users.

#42
AlanC9

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So generic and dull is bad but the FR is good..... ;)

#43
Drakron

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...  Magic Missle casts a missle of Force which automatically does 1d4+1 point of damage (to a maximum of 5).  This is a spell which never misses.  No attack roll is made, nor is a Spellcraft check required.  Armor has no effect on a Magic Missle, and there is no save  Find me a Fighter who never misses.  Second, it is a Force effect, which means that it is one of the very few things that can effect Ethereal beings.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Its also something that is nullified by Magic Shield, a common lv1 spell usually in the "must have" list of spellcasters and casted before going into battle, at least it was something I keep active to protect my spellcasters from ranged attacks, be it magic missiles, arrows, bolts or bullets (from slings).

Also in my experiance the first target of a magic missile happens to be enemy spellcasters that have access to that spell.

#44
J.E. Sawyer

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Also in my experiance the first target of a magic missile happens to be enemy spellcasters that have access to that spell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, if you're prescient enough to know when you need to cast it.

#45
Drakron

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Well that depends on what my spellcaster knows, if I am a DM and my spellcaster knows the party he knows who are the magical inclined part members and target then first.

If they dont know, they "play by ear" ... wizards and sorcerors tend to be unarmored and they cast spells at some point, making it obvious they are spellcasters, its possible to confuse bards with wizards and sorcerors but they tend to use their bardic abilities to buff up the party but we can never be sure with multiclassing.

#46
Kaftan Barlast

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mana-based and slotbased magic systems are made to accomplish once thing- limit the amount of spells a magic user can cast over a timespace. A slotbased system is always inflexible and inpractical when compared to a manabased so mana = wins. slotbased systems add complexity, yes, but in the wrong way because they add nothing to the game except the possibility to engage in powergaming-esque "strategy"


to me, slotbased magic is an obsolete leftover just like those ancient RPGs that used tables for absolutely everything.

#47
CID-78

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i defently prefer a mana based system, but my biggest concern dealing with D&D system is:

1) i couldn't brows the player spell list on a easy basis from a script
2) the player learn spell out of thin air. (levelup) go back to scribe scrolls atleast so i can control what spells are available.
3) there where no way to increase spell usage.
4) i couldn't create my own spell casting classes

#48
Volourn

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I see a lot of accusations of me being stupid, and how "unbalanced" D&D magic; but have yet to see any proof of the latetr; and the former has been known for almost 3 decades so nothing new there.

Drakron has alreaydd ealt with magic missile. It's very easy to counter with another level 1 spell as well as tons of other spells. D&D magic is many things; but unbalanced; i think not.

Mana is about spmaming spells at your whim with pretty much no limit. Even Drakron's examaple of SW while tolerable is not that impressive.

D&D magic is plainly better because as a wizard you actually have to think and use your intelligence - obviously something that many abhor doing. Go figure. It's also very logical due to how the D&D magic ethos works. Magic doesn't come from someone anturally (unless you are a sorceror which is a mix of mana and D&D magic and is actually somewhat cool); but comes from studious study of magic and how it works and how to form it.

Bottom line, D&D rocks. Period.

As to the one who yelled,"You will buy it anyways!"... Guess what? I didn't recall saying I wans't going to buy DA. My name is not Hades. It's gonna take more than one dumb decision like a silly mana magic system tos top me from buying it. Please don't put words in my post.

Thank you. :(

#49
Kaftan Barlast

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Of drinking potions or sleeping every 2 minutes while in the midst of battle, which is the completely imbecillic alternative?

#50
Memengwa

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Of drinking potions or sleeping every 2 minutes while in the midst of battle, which is the completely imbecillic alternative?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Do not compare the "rest" of NWN with D&D rules.... In D&D you have to camp and pretty much do nothing. For every day where you sleep 8 hours per night, you regenerate 1 hp per level.

To get back your spells you need 8 h of sleep without any disturbance. If you get attacked by wondering monsters, the time you slept is pretty much lost. And you need to start anew.

#51
Gorth

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All magic users should be burned at the stake.

Problem solved :thumbsup:

#52
Volourn

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"sleeping every 2 minutes while in the midst of battle"

If you have to sleep every 2 minutes you arne't playing intelligently and/or your DM (and this includes the silly NWN OC rules or even other D&D PC games) didn't plan the adventure enocunters properly.

Next exuse... so I can destroy it.

Thank you, and have a nice day. :rolleyes:

#53
J.E. Sawyer

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I see a lot of accusations of me being stupid, and how "unbalanced" D&D magic; but have yet to see any proof of the latetr; and the former has been known for almost 3 decades so nothing new there.

I didn't say either of these.

Drakron has alreaydd ealt with magic missile. It's very easy to counter with another level 1 spell as well as tons of other spells.

If you have the prescience to cast it. In pen and paper games, the number of times I've seen wizards/sorcerers get off a shield spell when they need it has been low -- whether they were enemies or PCs. The spell only lasts a minute a level, so a caster is almost never just "walking around" with it up. If a wizard puts it up, opposing casters often detect that it was cast and either a) target others with their magic missiles b) target the caster with other spells or c) cast from the direction opposite their shield.

Mana is about spmaming spells at your whim with pretty much no limit. Even Drakron's examaple of SW while tolerable is not that impressive.

Mana is about having a common pool of energy from which a variety of effects are drawn. Specific implementations of mana systems don't discredit the type of system itself.

D&D magic is plainly better because as a wizard you actually have to think and use your intelligence - obviously something that many abhor doing.

A lot of times, the challenges of an adventure are unknown until they are encountered. That's why it's an "adventure" and not a plodding path through predictable encounters. A D&D wizard can plan for encounters for hours and still be caught completely unprepared by what awaits him or her in the session.

Go figure. It's also very logical due to how the D&D magic ethos works.

The system mechanics fit how the designers built the cosmology of the D&D universe. Not exactly an awesome or even difficult task.

#54
Volourn

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"I didn't say either of these."

Never said you did; but unlike us normal pukes; you are above simple name calling. :)


"If you have the prescience to cast it. In pen and paper games, the number of times I've seen wizards/sorcerers get off a shield spell when they need it has been low -- whether they were enemies or PCs. The spell only lasts a minute a level, so a caster is almost never just "walking around" with it up. If a wizard puts it up, opposing casters often detect that it was cast and either a) target others with their magic missiles b) target the caster with other spells or c) cast from the direction opposite their shield."

All true; but it still useful to have as since a magic missle spell is more dnagerous to a mage in a party than it is to a warrior. The fact you got the opposing mage to change targets is already a good thing. And, that's if he passes the spellcraft check to detemrine which spell is being cast (more than likely for any wizard worth his beans; but not an absolute given). And, like I said, there are tons of other ways to deal with magic missle. Shield is just the easiest and most absic way since it's also a 1st level spell. Remember, that unlike PC d&D games, your typical pnp D&D game is not going to have lots of battles during one day unless the campaign s REALLY, REALLY combat heavy so not being able to cast your sheild spell as soon as you wake up isn't too bad anyways.


"Mana is about having a common pool of energy from which a variety of effects are drawn. Specific implementations of mana systems don't discredit the type of system itself."

Maybe. But, everything cna look good in theory; but in practice I have yet to see personally a mana magic system that gives the versality that people brag about and still keep the spam a spell under complete control. Until then, I'll contninue to have my doubts when hearing people praise it.


"lot of times, the challenges of an adventure are unknown until they are encountered. That's why it's an "adventure" and not a plodding path through predictable encounters. A D&D wizard can plan for encounters for hours and still be caught completely unprepared by what awaits him or her in the session."

True, and false. Sure, adventiures are often unpreditcable. Afterall, in theory, that's what makes them most interesting. Of course, that's why scroll creation was invented by some know it all wizard all those eons ago. Scroll crafting is rather cheap (too cheap almost, imo) so you can use that to make sure you have at least a few copies of those odd spells that rarely come into play but when they do are very useful ( water breathing one example of this), and a few extra combat spells just in case you do run out of your spells.


"The system mechanics fit how the designers built the cosmology of the D&D universe. Not exactly an awesome or even difficult task."

Maybe so; but it is still very logical; and still gives a wizard (and other casters) a lot of freedom to play their character as they see fit without completely free reign to spam spells like mana systems do.

#55
Astatine

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A mana system doesn't allow wizards to "spam spells" if you judge the available mana quantity so that you can't cast any more magic with it than you can with a D&D style spell slot system (in fact, with a mana system the total amount of magic castable per day should be somewhat less to make up for the fact that it's more flexible and you're likely to use more of your available spells than in a spell slot system).

(Note that I refer to "amount of magic" rather than "number of spells". Clearly your average mana system will allow you to cast many more low-level spells than, say, the D&D spell slot system will; however, those many low-level spells are no more powerful than a single high-level one that costs the same amount of mana unless your ruleset is broken, so it hardly deserves the label "spamming").

What mana systems do do is seriously reduce player frustration (and therefore increase the fun factor) for most people. Having no appropriate spells to hand in many situations despite a perfectly reasonable spell selection, and having lots of wasted spells at the end of every day, is very annoying. My gaming group has played D&D with both the standard spell slot system and with the spellpoints system from Unearthed Arcana and these days we won't even consider starting a new adventure using the standard spell slot rules. And we reckon the spellpoint system in Unearthed Arcana is reasonably well balanced.

Must give the recharge magic system (as published in the same book) a go at some point, though. :)

#56
Ellester

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A mana system definitely is depressing (not many games up to this point have made a good mana system that wasnít like a Diablo). But, it really matters how they implement it.

Honestly the skills/combat/magic, etcÖ and character generation (all of it) of this new world will be a key factor if I buy Dragon age or not. If the system sucks I wonít buy it, regardless if it has a good story. If the character generation system is good, then Iíll probably buy it.

People are all excited that itís not d&d, well at least d&d has a good character development system. Same goes with special. Thatís one of the reasons why I buy d&d games because I like the system. And I could care less what people say about magic users being unstoppable. My fighter types always have the most kills in any d&d game Iíve ever played. Anyway, hopefully Bio can come up with a good system, this is a key point if DA will be good or not.

Btw, a sorc can be stretched and say its mana based. But, there are no mana potions lying around everywhere where you can cast an unlimited number of a single spell (usually your best spell) per day. If you use up all your sorcerers spells for that level during a day, then youíre out of luck. You must change tactics, which means using a different level spell. The d&d spell system makes you use tactics with a wizard especially, and slightly less with a sorcerer (many people hate this, I for one do not). Volourn said it right, magic users should not be fighters. Sword=spell. Wizards are weak characters that only become strong with much experience. If a wizard can use a magic missile type spell for every hit against a monster that a fighter gets when he uses his sword, then the wizard essentially becomes a fighter with flashy effects. I also agree people just spam their best spell when using a mana system. Why cast a crappy spell, when you have a better one you can cast an unlimited amount of times.

Also, remember this is bio. They always give out tons of healing potions etc. NWN basically gave you unlimited access to heal potions and rods of resurrection. I see no reason why I shouldnít expect them to do the same with mana potions, unless they donít implement them.

#57
Monte Carlo

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If you get attacked by wondering monsters


I'm intrigued. If you were attacked by wondering monsters, presumably you'd get a distraction bonus. Depending, of course, what they were wondering about.

For example, an orc wondering about what he was having for lunch might only attract a -1 distraction penalty on his attack roll.

OTOH, let us imagine an evil fighter henchman seriously wondering about why that ugly barbarian has been promoted above him by his evil wizard boss might get a whopping -4.

The possibilities are endless. If I were Evil Dungeon Overlord I'd put up notices to warn monsters not to wonder whilst on patrol.

Lastly, gelatinous cubes and rust monsters aren't smart enough to wonder about anything much and do not attract a distraction penalty.

Cheers
MC

#58
knightsubzero

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A mana based system is fine if you cant just refill it with a potion.

like warcraft 2's mana system (yes strategy blah blah) it simply recharged over time there is no potions to top it up therefore there is a limit to how many spells you can cast.

if done right it can work

i say lose some as many DnD restrictions as possible.

#59
Drakron

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Sawyer my point is the magic missile is not that mush powerful, it can be offset by a simple spell of the same level.

Also I seen a lot more broken spells in D&D, I remenber a druid spell that was worded in such a way it end up being a "Save and die" spell.

We cannot say D&D spells are broken, I can point out "Physical Shield" of Fable (since cRPGs were brought up) is a hell of a broken spell, having it on means no worry over being knocked out and in efect making the mana bar a second health bar.

#60
Memengwa

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If you get attacked by wondering monsters


I'm intrigued. If you were attacked by wondering monsters, presumably you'd get a distraction bonus. Depending, of course, what they were wondering about.

For example, an orc wondering about what he was having for lunch might only attract a -1 distraction penalty on his attack roll.

OTOH, let us imagine an evil fighter henchman seriously wondering about why that ugly barbarian has been promoted above him by his evil wizard boss might get a whopping -4.

The possibilities are endless. If I were Evil Dungeon Overlord I'd put up notices to warn monsters not to wonder whilst on patrol.

Lastly, gelatinous cubes and rust monsters aren't smart enough to wonder about anything much and do not attract a distraction penalty.

Cheers
MC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Now, that's funny :)

But please don't laugh over us poor outlandish people...




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