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Ranger and Paladin


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#41
Darque

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I mean, what if I wanted to play a lawful good mage? Should I automatically become more powerful and get some bonus spells because I'm lawful good?


They are at a disadvantage, they can "only" be Lawful good, a limitation the Mage doesn't share. So your argument dies right there. To quote Volourn... you lose.

If you're going to play the ubermunchkin powerhour, it doesn't matter what restrictions are there since you'll ignore them anyway. But the Paladin's "code" is a limitations since there are a lot of things that character can.. and can't do.

If you follow the whole alignment thing.

According to you, anything that's lawful good would get some sort of penalty, so wouldn't it be unfair if the paladin was a powerful class because of this? Won't that mean all the lawful good mages in the world are getting jipped?


:sorcerer: You fail once again.

Nowhere did I say that lawful good grants any kind of bonus or penalty, it's mearly a path your character follows.

Since I apparently have to dumb this down so you won't apply wild accusations to what I post, I shall attempt to.

The Paladin has certain abilities and limitations, one of those limitations is the fact it can only have "one" alignment path.

One, singular.

That means if you roleplay that alignment and class you have a VERY strict path you can follow with very little variation on your actions.

There are certain things you can do, and a vast number of things you cannot since you're "shackled" to the Lawful good alignment.

Nowhere have I stated that an alignment causes a penalty. Being forced into a singular alignment choice "is" the penalty.

#42
EnderAndrew

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Pirate-Ninjas are restricted to *not* playing Lawful Good.

#43
Volourn

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Alignment is a tool; not a straitjacket. Do people even read the D&D sourcebooks. No one; not even paladins, are forced to play a certain way.


"shackled" to the Lawful good alignment."

Paladin characters are not shackled. It's not ahrd coded. There are paladins that mistakes,m there are paladins that fall, there are paladins thata re rude, overly aggresive, etc., etc.

Has anyone here played the module Dragon Mountain? There's a prime exmaple in that 'official' module where there's a paladin who isn't exactly a perfect beacon of light.

Anywyas, back to alignment, there's a reason why the concept of 'falling' from one's alignment exists.

The alignment one chooses (or is given as is the case of paladins) at the start of a character's career is just a guideline how a characetr has been acting and basic code of ethics. This cna change during the course of play for so many reasons and there's lots of 'wiggle room" within a single alignment.

A LG dwarf from Mithril Hall is gonna have a different outlook of life than a LG human from Amn. No doubt about it.

#44
EnderAndrew

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It doesn't change the fact the the alignment system pales greatly to a morality path system.

#45
Volourn

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Doubtful.

#46
Althernai

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Second of all, I'm not whining about the whole "restriction" thing. I don't like rollplaying, and I think the paladin is overpowered. But you're saying a particular type of character is restricting, and I disagree- I don't see any hindrance of being lawful good, especially when you're a paladin. So I think that the paladin is just munchkiny through-and-through. Which is why I prefer it be made into a prestige class.

I mean, what if I wanted to play a lawful good mage? Should I automatically become more powerful and get some bonus spells because I'm lawful good? According to you, anything that's lawful good would get some sort of penalty, so wouldn't it be unfair if the paladin was a powerful class because of this? Won't that mean all the lawful good mages in the world are getting jipped?


The limitation on the paladin is that he is sworn to be LG. Evil characters have more options; an evil character can use the means of a good character if it is the most convenient method that leads to their ends. It doesn't go the other way though -- a good character cannot use evil means and remain good. Chaotic is not quite as clear cut, but chaotic characters can still act in lawful ways when it suits them (they aren't madmen). LG is the most restricted of the alignments because you can't have a lawful character that acts chaotic when it is necessary or a good character that does evil things when it is convenient.

The difference between the LG paladin and the LG mage is that the mage still has more options. He isn't required to be LG, that's just the way he is. If there is a situation in which he desperately needs to do something chaotic or evil, he can do it -- all that will happen is that it will weigh on his conscience. On the other hand, the paladin cannot do it without breaking an oath and, depending on how significant the action is, possibly losing his ability to be a paladin.

#47
Traceroute

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A couple things about the Paladin to bring up.

The Lawful Good restriction is not a shackle. A Paladin may deviate from the Lawful Good alignment. However, if they do so, they lose their class abilities and cannot take further levels in Paladin until they have atoned.

Also, they may never multiclass. If a Paladin takes levels in another class, they may never raise in Paladin again. Per the PHB:

The path of the Paladin requires a constant heart.  If a character adopts this class, she must pursue it ot the exclusion of all other careers.  Once she has turned off the path, she may never return.

These are the most prominent class restrictions. I am not passing judgement on any part of the system, just wanted that clearly stated since it's been a point of debate for the past couple of pages.

If you'd like to play an evil Paladin, I believe there are rules for anti-Paladins in Sword and Fist, the complete warrior sourcebook, as well as rules for evil Rangers, etc.

As far as spells, spell progression is the same for Paladins as it is for the Ranger, they just have access to different spells. As far as healing in combat, the Ranger and Paladin gain Cure Light, Cure Moderate and Cure Serious at the exact same levels.

Combat - The Paladin can wear heavy armor, but by 13th level a Ranger who took Two-Weapon Fighting for his combat style has SIX attacks per round, to the Paladin's 3. The Paladin can take Two-Weapon fighting and the associated feats, but the Ranger does so without sacraficing any feats. Combined with Weapon Finesse and the high dexterity that is so useful to a Ranger, the Ranger has a pretty good chance of taking down the Paladin in melee.

At range, of course, the Ranger has the advantage since he won't be wearing heavy armor and thus will be able to use his full Dex bonus (assuming Dex is 18 or less), in addition to only having a minor armor check penalty. With the high number of skill points allotted to Rangers in 3.5e, the Ranger is a excellent at sniping from cover, and the Paladin in his heavy armor simply cannot keep up.

Is a Ranger a good line trooper? Not really; like I said it's a tank versus a Humvee. But Rangers can certainly hold their own in melee or in the city, and will always be Masters of the Wild.

#48
Darque

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The Lawful Good restriction is not a shackle.  A Paladin may deviate from the Lawful Good alignment.  However, if they do so, they lose their class abilities and cannot take further levels in Paladin until they have atoned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


ROFLMAO :) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I can't believe how many of you are trying to split hairs and have a war over symantics. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Shackle, restriction, limitation. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Geeze, some of you people are unbelievable. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

#49
Traceroute

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I brought it up because it's being looked at as an unescapeable limitation of the class, and thus a limitation of your ability as a player to role play your character.

The point is it's not, but there are penalties.

And again, I brought that up as clarification not judgement.

#50
Darque

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I apologize, I think this topic (and specifically some of the replies within) has put me on a short fuse. :)

#51
Baneblade

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Is it just me or is this topic a bit redundant....

I mean who uses 2e rule set anymore ?

#52
Darque

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How dare you use logic and make sense :wacko:

:D

#53
Baneblade

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How dare you use logic and make sense :wacko:

:D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


:ph34r:

Didn't mean to... :geek:

#54
Darque

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:wacko:

#55
Llyranor

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You're all banned, spammers.

#56
mkreku

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I still use 2E D&D.. I never quite liked anything above that.

#57
Dalmir "The Dark"

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Ever since 2nd Edition was released my D&D campaign has been a hybrid of all of the rules that I find add the most realism to the game (roleplaying-wise, not combat-wise).

Rules are made to be guidelines and need to be broken sometimes for the game to work right. This is one of the drawbacks of CRPGs - a computer cannot be accurately programmed to know when to break the rules or fudge a die roll.

#58
EnderAndrew

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D&D makes me want to cry.

#59
Volourn

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Yet, you continue to buy and play D&D games. There is no logic there. If something would make me cry - and, they're not tears of joy - I stay away. Period.

#60
EnderAndrew

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I never get to play as a player since I'm always being begged to run games for other people. Someone offered to run a D&D game for me. I conceeded.




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