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Ranger and Paladin


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#21
EnderAndrew

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As a DM/GM/ST I feel the need to break down rules and look for exploits. As such, I constantly look for loopholes players might use, etc.

I've never played a Paladin, nor do I have any desire to do so. I like playing hero characters, but I think the Paladin class isn't balanced personally.

Nothing is really balanced in D&D.

#22
romeo_longsword

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If you're a "roleplayer" they're about equal.

If you're a "rollplayer", yes the Paladin is better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



The nature of this thread is about comparing the two titled classes in terms of what logic lead them shared the same experience chart back in 2e. Not about their role-playing value in your view. :-

Additionally, even in a role-playing environment, I would say, they are certainly not "about equal", they are indeed very different indeed :)

#23
romeo_longsword

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As a DM/GM/ST I feel the need to break down rules and look for exploits.  As such, I constantly look for loopholes players might use, etc.

I've never played a Paladin, nor do I have any desire to do so.  I like playing hero characters, but I think the Paladin class isn't balanced personally.

Nothing is really balanced in D&D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hey Ender,

I think at the end of the day, DnD is surely not balanced and its never intended to be. I think its a great social medium, so balance in terms of every class have equal power is quite out of the picture. So why does it bother you if there is loopholes or not? :-

But there must be somthing in the Ranger and the Pally class, back in the 2e days that is considered as greater than other classes, as they had a higher experience chart than other classes. At least, may be WOTC or whoever was in charge at the time thought so, may be! :)

#24
EnderAndrew

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D&D caters to party roles. I'm fine with that. I've played various editions of D&D. I'm actively playing in a D&D game these days despite not really liking the system.

I'm not vehemently against D&D. I just think there are much better systems out there that few people seem to try because D&D is so popular. It bugs me that everyone is willing to accept an inferior game when superior games get little exposure.

To boot, I'm not crazy about Wizards of the Coast, just like I wasn't crazy about TSR.

#25
Darque

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As a DM/GM/ST I feel the need to break down rules and look for exploits.  As such, I constantly look for loopholes players might use, etc.

I've never played a Paladin, nor do I have any desire to do so.  I like playing hero characters, but I think the Paladin class isn't balanced personally.

Nothing is really balanced in D&D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Paladins are balanced by their "severe" roleplaying limitations.

if you don't think "lawful good" is a limitation, you're not playing it right ;)

#26
Ginthaeriel

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Solution: Disallow anyone to take the Paladin class, and only allow them to use the Divine Champion Prestige Class or at least some sort of variant. This I believe is Sammael's house rule.

After all, it doesn't make sense that only good Gods get holy knights. Don't talk about blackguards, because I think blackguards are lame. With the whole lawful good thing pitched out, you can now make a campaign based more on dogmatic religion and opposing ideologies instead of the whole good/evil/law/chaos thing. Moral ambiguity rocks!

#27
EnderAndrew

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As a DM/GM/ST I feel the need to break down rules and look for exploits.  As such, I constantly look for loopholes players might use, etc.

I've never played a Paladin, nor do I have any desire to do so.  I like playing hero characters, but I think the Paladin class isn't balanced personally.

Nothing is really balanced in D&D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Paladins are balanced by their "severe" roleplaying limitations.

if you don't think "lawful good" is a limitation, you're not playing it right :p

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not a big fan of the alignment system. I really prefer morality path systems.

#28
romeo_longsword

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As a DM/GM/ST I feel the need to break down rules and look for exploits.  As such, I constantly look for loopholes players might use, etc.

I've never played a Paladin, nor do I have any desire to do so.  I like playing hero characters, but I think the Paladin class isn't balanced personally.

Nothing is really balanced in D&D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Paladins are balanced by their "severe" roleplaying limitations.

if you don't think "lawful good" is a limitation, you're not playing it right :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Unless you are a what they called a role-playing nazie, there is no right or wrong way to role-play. :)

#29
Darque

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Unless you are a what they called a role-playing nazie, there is no right or wrong way to role-play. :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes:

Nice generalization.... I'm guessing you're a rollplayer ;)

#30
romeo_longsword

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Unless you are a what they called a role-playing nazie, there is no right or wrong way to role-play. :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes:

Nice generalization.... I'm guessing you're a rollplayer ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


?

You seems to be pressured to name other players non-roleplayer.

Guess what you may, I am a romantic role-player, built to smite RP nazi such as yourself. :) By RP nazi I mean, one that EXPECT how others to play their characters in a certain way, or, believing naming themselves a role-player if though its some superior status. But really? I welcome everyone. :)

#31
Darque

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Now see, you're the one who started with the labeling... :rolleyes:

I just decided to run with it.

I am also really not happy with you labeling me a "nazi" in any format.

Now if assuming a person will take the disadvantages (and actually play them) that go along with the advantages of a character class makes me a "roleplaying *undefined term*" then so be it. In this case (a paladin) the character has a very specific set of limitations that go with it's advantages and model that are built into the ruleset.

If you want to be a powergaming muppet munchkin, that's fine, play as you want.

I am a romantic role-player, built to smite RP nazi such as yourself.


No, you're an annoying twit who likes to throw names around like you know what they mean without actually understanding what the people you are discussing things with are trying to say.

So based on that I only have two words for you.

Piss off.

#32
Ginthaeriel

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Wouldn't any "alignment" allow for roleplaying restrictions, then? I mean, that basically means a Chaotic Evil guy MUST always be bathat crazy, Chaotic Good people MUST resist "authority" and stick it up to the evil corporation MAN, True Neutral people MUST be totally balanced and reasonable and listen to both sides of the argument, Lawful Neutral people MUST not jaywalk, etc. etc. etc. So how is being "Lawful Good" a restriction on how powerful Paladins are?

Are you going to force the paladins to go NWN style and refuse any form of monetary reward for their good deeds in return for extra EXP? ROFLMAO.

This just goes to show how completely wtflame the alignment system is. Roleplaying should be completely defined by how the player plays his character, not through some ultra simplified symbolic morality system. I mean, what *is* good anyways? What if you were raised in a culture that believes that if you do not cannibalize your close friends, you are denying their souls to reincarnate as your children? Under that belief, not cannibalizing someone would be akin to denying them salvation and forcing them to live forever in the underworld as a damned soul, which could be seen as worse than murder. So is being a cannibal considered "good" or "evil" in that aspect?

#33
Darque

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I don't believe I ever said the alignment system was a good one, and I get the feeling some people are assuming far too much about what I post. :sorcerer:

But it is the system that's in place.

Personally I like the alignment shift system presented in the old 2nd edition Dragonlance book I saw a long time ago.

But in the case of the Paladin, alignment "is" a part of the package, as much as the bonuses it gets.

Are you going to force the paladins to go NWN style and refuse any form of monetary reward for their good deeds in return for extra EXP?


Nope. Any Paladin (or Lawful Good person for that matter) would most likely refuse the reward (if they didn't need it) accept it (if they really did) or give it to someone who really needed it more (if the person who offered it didn't need it) or even tithe it to their church (since I always see a church providing for all their paladin's needs like a Daimyo provides for their Samurai).

Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Stupid.

#34
Darque

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Roleplaying should be completely defined by how the player plays his character, not through some ultra simplified symbolic morality system.


This I agree with "except" where "morality" is a part of the character.

Like a Paladin.

I mean honestly, would you (as a mage) try to be a front line tank? No, that's not what your character is built as, the same applies to the Paladin... this class is built a particular way.

If you don't like the Lawful-Good restriction, don't whine about it, either change it for your campaign or create your own class variation.

#35
EnderAndrew

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It's another part of the reason why I don't like Paladins, and why I don't like D&D.

Heck, I'll take GURPS over D&D.

#36
Darque

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It's another part of the reason why I don't like Paladins, and why I don't like D&D.

Heck, I'll take GURPS over D&D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Ouch :sorcerer:

:)

I prefer 7th sea

But I figure you'd already see that coming :p

:D

#37
EnderAndrew

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I want to invent a new class called Pirate-Ninja.

#38
Darque

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Only if it uses dual-chainsaws :D

#39
Ginthaeriel

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First of all, rules were made to be broken. I dislike the Paladin class, and I think it really should be a prestige class.

Second of all, I'm not whining about the whole "restriction" thing. I don't like rollplaying, and I think the paladin is overpowered. But you're saying a particular type of character is restricting, and I disagree- I don't see any hindrance of being lawful good, especially when you're a paladin. So I think that the paladin is just munchkiny through-and-through. Which is why I prefer it be made into a prestige class.

I mean, what if I wanted to play a lawful good mage? Should I automatically become more powerful and get some bonus spells because I'm lawful good? According to you, anything that's lawful good would get some sort of penalty, so wouldn't it be unfair if the paladin was a powerful class because of this? Won't that mean all the lawful good mages in the world are getting jipped?

Now if the Paladin, on the other hand, got some sort of Code of Conduct that specifically forbade the paladin from doing certain things that would clearly put them at a disadvantage, then I'm okay with that. For example, let's say an honorable paladin refuses to ambush his enemies, and must face his enemies head on or else receive an XP penalty. Or maybe a protector paladin has sworn never to take a life again, and also cannot allow a life to be lost at the hands of another while he is present, Isaac Asimov style. Now that is a definite, tangible restriction.

But that can apply for any alignment. Evil paladins may have a code where they cannot allow any of their enemies to flee them- they all must die. Or else, XP Penalty. In this way the code of conduct a paladin has is more in line with his Deity, and infact a DM may create a specific code of conduct with his player before the campaign begins. It's stupid to pigeonhole everything into Good and Evil, Black and White.

See, now THAT is roleplaying.

#40
Aponez

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If you don't like the Lawful-Good restriction, don't whine about it, either change it for your campaign or create your own class variation.


In other words, if you want a tank, but you don't like a paladin do a warrior or a barbarian, but the paladin is "lawful good", and you have to accept that limitation.

I have play with the paladin and the warrior, and they aren't as powerfull as you say here, a ranger with his feats can beat them without many problems, the paladin or the warrior almost always will be melee chars, and the ranger usually is a ranged char, you can't kill what you can't hit. :sorcerer:"

First of all, rules were made to be broken. I dislike the Paladin class, and I think it really should be a prestige class


In other words if it's difficult, then cheating and ready no? <_<




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