The Dark Side

[Paladin]

I know the developers have said they are going to make the dark side less thuglike, like it was first game (a real disappointment in it), and I have a suggestion about how to portray the dark side. The dark side should be more Machiavellian. A dark sider does not believe in good or evil, just power. He does not do evil acts just because they are evil, but because they are often the easiest way to get what he wants done. A true dark sider would have no problem doing something good if it were easier way. The Machiavellian dark sider who sees no good or evil, just power, is a much more effective and scary (think fascism) view of the dark side and it fits better with the movies and books.

[Indalecio]

I know the developers have said they are going to make the dark side less thuglike, like it was first game (a real disappointment in it), and I have a suggestion about how to portray the dark side. The dark side should be more Machiavellian. A dark sider does not believe in good or evil, just power. He does not do evil acts just because they are evil, but because they are often the easiest way to get what he wants done. A true dark sider would have no problem doing something good if it were easier way. The Machiavellian dark sider who sees no good or evil, just power, is a much more effective and scary (think fascism) view of the dark side and it fits better with the movies and books.

Well thats all well and good. But from what I see, being tainted by Dark Side, is like being addicted to drugs. Just like the addict does everything he can to get the next hit, so the Dark Sider will do as much as he can to get the next hit of the Dark Side's power. If there is choice where a matter could be resolved peacefully, or violently, and peacefully would be better, the Dark Sider will often choose violently, because it is then he feels the Dark Side of the Force.

 

The best of the Sith are the ones who can best control their addiction. The only one who seems to do this really well is Palpatine, but thats maybe because he's been doing it for so long.

[nightcleaver]

Palpatine is harsher on his underlings than vader, though, and Vader's pretty harsh. When vader pointed that out, as well, he was sparing someone. Not exactly as you said.

[Indalecio]

Palpatine is harsher on his underlings than vader, though, and Vader's pretty harsh. When vader pointed that out, as well, he was sparing someone. Not exactly as you said.

Yes, but we only have Vader's words to go by. He was implying to the Death Star's commander that there were far worse penalties for than what he could inflict himself. IOW, he was playing good cop, of good cop/bad cop.

 

From what I see, the Emperor did very little -direct- evil, but he toyed with his underlings, played them off against each other, but all the while keeping his hands clean.

[nightcleaver]

Vader still spared the man, and he threatened.

 

You could argue that someone who's inexperienced with anger in real life treats anger like a drug - they give in whenever they can, but after a while their anger is more controlled and thought ahead. It isn't any less horrible, though, if you consider the pain Palpatine made.

[EnderAndrew]

I think Vader's only flaw was to kill when someone made one mistake.

 

People who are terrified of making mistakes are bound to make them. People can not operate at their best when they believe they are not allowed to make a single mistake.

 

Discipline and fear can be used properly to motivate, but not on the scale Vader used. I think he was a good villian, but not the greatest villian in the world.

[ShinIchiro]

That's one reason Thrawn was seen as more reasonable, better, and in his own way scarier than Vader. He was always compotent and incontrol.

[EnderAndrew]

I would have to agree. In my opinion, Thrawn was a better villian. He didn't need the Force.

[ShinIchiro]

Vader was a good classic style villan. Thrawn was a unique work of genius.

[guns1inger]

While I liked Thrawn, nothing compares to Vader for me. It's a combination of the look, voice, and overall terror that Vader struck into the heart of all he encountered that makes him the greatest villan ever. IMO of course!!!

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

Vader... :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

[Paladin]

I would like to see a classier, more calculating dark side enemy more like the emperor in the game, rather than the mindlessly brutal enemy type that seems to be in many star wars games.

[EnderAndrew]

Vader had the look and the voice.

 

But in the long run, I'll go with a Hanibal Lechter, or Thrawn villian.

 

Now, if James Earl Jone's voice were applied to a Thrawn style villian, watch out!

[CastleBravo]

I think there is more than one way to get to the darkside.

 

The "bully" type (over-used ALOT on Korriban in KOTOR), who wants more power so they can feel superior and dominate others,

 

The sadistic type, who flat-out enjoys inflicting pain for its own sake, but can still be very smart and cunning (Hannibal Lecter-ish)

 

A more rational, methodical tyrant type of character (like the Emperor, who seems to be thinking 12 steps ahead of everyone else)

 

The addicted type, who started down the dark side for maybe a "legitimate" reason like revenge, only to be consumed by their craving for it (like Yuthura in KOTOR).

[JediMasterRevan]

So you want the Sith to be communists? Machiavelli was the person who Karl Marx got most of his ideas from.

[ShinIchiro]

Htere was far more to machiavelli than that. He made nefariouis schemes to take over power in a variety of ways. He was all about manipulation and power. Not purely communism (I hadn't herad that marx and his british friend were influenced by machivelli, but I won't argue it).

[Nur Ab Sal]

So you want the Sith to be communists?  Machiavelli was the person who Karl Marx got most of his ideas from.

What? Where you were learning philosophy? Marx took his ideas from Babeuf and

Saint-Simon! What are you babbling! Machiavelli has nothing common with communism. Well you should come back to school...

 

Eh Americans...always bad-educated.

[ShinIchiro]

So you want the Sith to be communists?

[Nur Ab Sal]

Of course! I had to read this interesting book where I was in college. Besides Machiavelli was a Renaissance thinker and a servant of the Medici House (scheming bourgeois) so there's no room for communism - he was an enthusiast of private ownership and capitalism...like all people of the XVIth century.

[ShinIchiro]

Yay, my assumptions based on athe implications of teachers have been correct. I just have trouble argueing about this stuff as many people here have had more education than I. I've just finished freshmen year of high school. I have had a good education for my age, but I have only taken 3 college courses so I can't really trust my own knowledge in comparison with your guys's

[Nur Ab Sal]

Don't decrease your person. This is unnecessary. And if you have doubts you can always check them on the internet...there's a whole stuff you may need, man.

[CastleBravo]

So you want the Sith to be communists? Machiavelli was the person who Karl Marx got most of his ideas from.

Um, NO. Try knowing what you are talking about next time.

 

For those that don't know, Machiavelli is best known for a book called "The Prince," where he describes what a prince (in the context of his times, really a petty tyrant/dictator) should do to gain and maintain political power.

 

You can read a summary of it here:

 

http://www.the-prince-by-machiavelli.com/s...achiavelli.html

 

And the full text here:

 

http://www.the-prince-by-machiavelli.com/t...ince/title.html

 

Some quotes from "The Prince":

 

"Hence it is necessary for a prince wishing to hold his own to know how to do wrong, and to make use of it or not according to necessity."

 

"[it] is necessary to take such measures that, when they believe no longer, it may be possible to make them believe by force. "

 

"For injuries ought to be done all at one time, so that, being tasted less, they offend less; benefits ought to be given little by little, so that the flavour of them may last longer."

 

Basically, the book suggested that if you wanted to rule, you needed to be a hard-assed, devious son of a bitch.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Such are laws of politics...remember what Obi-Wan said about politicians?

[Indalecio]

Such are laws of politics...remember what Obi-Wan said about politicians?

"You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy"?

[DesertHawk]

Hmm. While it's true that the antics of the sith/villans was annoying and childish in KOTOR one, it still seems "unrealistic" (realism doesn't matter, it's just a game...) to have masterminds at every corner.

Most of the people in the world that could be compared to villans in SW are thugs. Maybe because of the lack of brainpower. Most people in the world aren't overly smart, and are in it for there own "well-being". Not the stealing candy from babies level of KOTOR, but the stealing money from little old ladies level. It's just the way most people that are nasty are.

 

I, personally, would find it interesting to see the line between dark side and light side played on. What if you did something bad to further the greater good? What if you did a good thing so you could earn more? How about viewpoints? You see yourself as a hero, Joe over there sees you as a villian?

 

But anyway. . .A Sith Commie would be interesting to see. Who cares about realism, anyway?