Overuse of the double-bladed saber

[Drakron]

Well first its a entire galaxy out there, even if odds are a million to 1 that would mean Earth could have at least 1000 force sensative.

 

The biggest issue is that most force sensative would never be found and of thioe who are could simply lack the potencial to be became a Jedi.

 

So we have the Sith that would glady take the rejects and use then, even if they lacked the potencial they are still useful to then, after all the Sit dont exactly care about having shinny examples of virtue as the Jedi do.

 

Force users (expecialy Jedi) sould not be automatic became commanders, they could be useful as tactical advisers but it depends on too many factors.

 

Problem with SW:KotOR was there was a "assembly line", besides a few ninor diferences (lightsaber style and clothing color) all the Sith force users were the same, they used the exact same force powers, there were a rare few that used diferent powers but they were the exception and not the rule.

 

I have no problems with force users being a generic enemy at certain areas of the game (if you are going to invade the lair of a Sith Lord he is going to have many force users as guardians) but I do when they appear to be clones and dont use combined arm tactics, SW:KotOR was too easy because there was no Sith backing troops with force powers.

[Darion]

You could have it where in order to use the double bladed saber you have to have already mastered the duel weapons feat. You could have it be a unlockable feat or something.

 

Duel weapons 1>Duel weapons 2>Duel weapons 3>Double Bladed weapons 1>Double bladed weapons 2> Double bladed weapons 3

 

Or you could just have it where you have to master the lightsaber feat before you can use them.

wouldn't be better to be able to use them after mastering Two handed weapons feat and lightsaber focus line feats???

[Darion]

I have no problems with force users being a generic enemy at certain areas of the game (if you are going to invade the lair of a Sith Lord he is going to have many force users as guardians) but I do when they appear to be clones and dont use combined arm tactics, SW:KotOR was too easy because there was no Sith backing troops with force powers.

In the Star Forge there are like 2 Sith heavi tropers for each Sith Aprentice or Dark Jedi

[Drakron]

Unfortunatly they are still clone, they dont supplement the troops with force powers and we have a "every man for itself" situation, they dont act with the troops but along with the troops.

 

The Leviatan bridge is a example of force users acting with the troops since they were throwing granades to cover the Sith "saberists" and not rush in with their weapons.

[Dereth]

I actually meant Duel Weapons as in dual wield as in 2 weapons

 

I always get duel and dual mixed up...

[Topaz Quasar]

(a) But Darth Maul was defeated, and as for what happened when Anakin tried using two lightsabers, well...

 

====================================

 

(B) Unfortunatly they are still clone, they dont supplement the troops with force powers and we have a "every man for itself" situation, they dont act with the troops but along with the troops.

a. You must realize that Count Dooku was 20 times more skilled than Anakin; he knew how to disable Anakin's second lightsaber efficiently.

 

b. Darth Malak was simply throwing every soldier & force user on the Star Forge at Revan to slow him down. They weren't trying to be even remotely tactical.

[Quiquag]

I agree with Topaz, Malik had no idea what tactics were. He was simply afraid of Revan, so he quickly tried to get everyone and anyone to kill Revan. By the time I actually fought Malik I wasn't afraid of him because I knew he feared me so much. My PC killed Malik in like 3 minutes with a series of force waves, it was sad.

[EnderAndrew]

It would be one thing if the double-saber, or double wielding was merely a stylistic point for your character.

 

But there is a sizeable difference rules-wise. The extra attacks from dual-wielding is very considerable.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Dual lightsaber requires perfect attune to The Force. That's why only most powerful force-wielders were able to use that weapon. Lightsaber in general is

elite weapon and jedi needs to practice a lot of telekinesis exercises before is able to use it correctly (as Windu mentioned in Shatterpoint) to whose who aren't

well prepared lightsaber presents danger bigger than to their opponents. Dual lightsaber is even more dangerous and in all SW sources is presented as ultra-elite weapon. What we see in KOTOR or Jedi Academy is just a commercial crap. This is just a fact: SW sources say so on dual lightsaber case and Bioware developers

shown that they aren't experts in Star Wars knowledge...

 

I agree - there is total overuse of dual lightsabers in KOTOR. People these are not toys!

[anari_quun]

amen

[nightcleaver]

I think the whole Star Forge was crappy nonsense. I'm sick of the, "throwing everything I have, but withholding just enough that he'll survive" crap. Basically, it's like the Kung-Fu tradition of ONE AT A TIME, PLEASE. It totally takes the drama out of it for the sake of more fighting, and considering that I didn't particularly care for the combat engine in that game in the first place, well...

 

I think cloning is exactly what they did. Either that, or the combat engine was so easy to master that they had to use excessive spawning to slow down the player...

 

Hmm, maybe they should just give a penalty of several hitpoints to yourself when wielding the dual lightsaber (insert laughing face)

[Fardragon]

I quite enjoyed wadeing thorough heaps of enemies abord the Star Forge. It made a change from the predicatable "a small enough group may be able to sneek into the enemy base and activate the self destruct".

 

I do think Revan was advised on stratagy by a minature giant space hamster though!

[AlanC9]

Dual lightsaber is even more dangerous and in all SW sources is presented as ultra-elite weapon. What we see in KOTOR or Jedi Academy is just a commercial crap. This is just a fact: SW sources say so on dual lightsaber case and Bioware developers

shown that they aren't experts in Star Wars knowledge...

I agree with most of your argument, but the Bio designers didn't make up the D20 dual-wielding rules. And LucasArts approved the D20 rules, so blame them.

[Drakron]

I resent that.

 

The movies does not give levels to anyone, some characters are more powerful that others but that is just narrative.

 

As I point out before a lightstaff is not a useful weapon until reaching mid range levels and requires many feats to be blown on it, as it stands its preferable to not use then until BAB start to reach a point were Defence is not going to stop hits, so its unlikely that lv 4 characters are playing around with the double weapons, its not a effective weapon for then at that point.

 

Around mid levels (8-12) its starts to be a option and guess what?

 

Lv 8 characters are powerful, people get the insane idea lv20 characters are the norm ... they are not, most of the universe population does not even reach lv10 let alone lv 20 that IS the level of characters such as Yoda, Palpatine and Marka Ragnos the legends of the universe.

 

The mechanics already made dual wield and double weapons useless for low level characters, sure you can try to use one but without the feats and BAB its not going to do anything.

 

This blind fanatism towards a impression of the universe that happens to be supported by the d20 rules as written is absurd, I pointed again and again the rules make sure any low level character to not even think about using then but that is not enough for some people who appear to only care about then being forbiden with no racional mechanical at all, expect "Maul Sacred Weapon cannot be used expect for lv263 charaters .

 

But then again this is the Internet ... I really sould not expect much ...

[Darth Jebus]

I do think Revan was advised on stratagy by a minature giant space hamster though!

[anari_quun]

This blind fanatism towards a impression of the universe that happens to be supported by the d20 rules as written is absurd, I pointed again and again the rules make sure any low level character to not even think about using then but that is not enough for some people who appear to only care about then being forbiden with no racional mechanical at all, expect "Maul Sacred Weapon cannot be used expect for lv263 charaters .

I'm all for characters wielding double bladed sabers, even if they're not Jedi. They should just lose massive hit points for cutting themselves.

 

If you're bored, do an experiment. Tape two flashlights together and twirl them around and try not to hit any part of yourself with the beam. Okay, now imagine you're trying to attack someone without hitting yourself. It's obviously something that must be controlled with the Force.

 

For me, the problem is not so much that there are a lot of double-bladed lightsabers around, but that all of the "Dark Jedi" holding them are the same, they all have the same color blade, wearing the same clothes, using the same powers, etc.

[Drakron]

If you're bored, do an experiment. Tape two flashlights together and twirl them around and try not to hit any part of yourself with the beam. Okay, now imagine you're trying to attack someone without hitting yourself. It's obviously something that must be controlled with the Force.

Do the following, get a claymore and try to hit something.

 

Point is they are trained, its not classified as "exotic weapon" for nothing, a lightsaber is a dificult weapon but Solo used it to open a tantan belly so its not so impossible to use.

 

If you want to know in the d20 you have a -4 BAB penalty when trying to use a weapon untrained, so lets take a lightstaff that without the feats would end up with a -6 to BAB (if not in error), soldiers that have the fastest BAB progression could only use one at lv6 without a BAB penalty (of course with a basic BAB of 0 they would not hit many things at that level), the fact fact there is no "self injury" table in d20 is because such tables end up being really stupid at times and its a heroic game after all, we dont see Han cut his arm off because he failed save.

 

As for you point about the Sith, I already pointed out when we start to face enemies with lightsabers we are around lv8-10 and so those Sith could use those weapons and even if they are "clones" (with they are, I seen enough of the files to do much of my eyes) its because BioWare made a powergaming RPG with rather insane leveling up and such enemies even if they are right to those levels appear stupid, its not a rules problem but a game design problem.

[anari_quun]

Do the following, get a claymore and try to hit something.

Were you referring to the sword?

 

There is something to be said about how your character wields swords and lightsabers as if they had the same weight.

[Ixion]

Um.. instead of getting into this debate I'll just post my opinion about this...

 

First and foremost KotOR1 had the glitch that you did not need the two weapon feat to be efficient with the double bladed saber, and that should be fixed.

 

Second, I think that after the lightsaber mastery feat, THEN an option should appear for DoubleBladed lightsaber mastery feat... but for dual, I don't think there should be a seperate feat, besides Two Weapon Use or something.

 

I donno, I'm confusing my damn self.

[Drakron]

Were you referring to the sword?

 

There is something to be said about how your character wields swords and lightsabers as if they had the same weight.

Yes.

 

And again we have the BAB penalty, its still -4, with serves as a example why the need to use a feat to learn how to proper use a weapon.

 

As for "as if they have the same weight", well first they are diferent weapons who have diferent weights but to save time, resources and space the animation for melee weapons is the same, I dont think there is much of a need to change animations since in the movies they are using then as they would a regualr prop sword, if you have issues with that ... well, swordfighting in movies tend to be unrealistic (from "Baseball bat" to "it weights nothing").

[Nur Ab Sal]

This blind fanatism towards a impression of the universe that happens to be supported by the d20 rules as written is absurd, I pointed again and again the rules make sure any low level character to not even think about using then but that is not enough for some people who appear to only care about then being forbiden with no racional mechanical at all, expect "Maul Sacred Weapon cannot be used expect for lv263 charaters .

I don't care about RPG rules! I was refering to EU sources, maybe you should read

posts of other people more CAREFULLY. I don't understand your RPG babble and I don't even want to understand. Books and comics are quite clear in the case of dual lightsabers and D20 is not important - and please don't use term "lighstaff", this is terrible product of WOTC clumsy editors.

[Fardragon]

I've heard "sabrestaff".

 

I agree that this weapon should be harder to use. If it was treated seperatly to the standard lightsabre so you needed their was a seperate proficency, focus and specilisation feat, and you needed the duel wielding feat to use it without penalties it would requre 6 feats to fully master, which seems about right to me.

[Opus131]

I agree that this weapon should be harder to use.

It is harder to use. You need 3 whole feats just not to get penalize by using a doubled bladed sword (or dual wielding).

 

Is anybody actually READING Drakkon posts AT ALL ?!?

[Opus131]

Books and comics are quite clear in the case of dual lightsabers

 

They are ?!?

[Fardragon]

I agree that this weapon should be harder to use.

It is harder to use. You need 3 whole feats just not to get penalize by using a doubled bladed sword (or dual wielding).

 

Is anybody actually READING Drakkon posts AT ALL ?!?

I think the argument is "are 3 feats sufficent to give this weapon it's mythic status?"