Wizard - No Sub Class or Evoker? / SingleClass

[Shady93]

I can't decide, is it worth it to go No Subclass or Evoker for a SC Wizard?

I like to be the main damage dealer in a party, but not sure if i can deal with losing spells, i don't know. Is there a big difference between the two in dps?

Thanks in advance

[thelee]

43 minutes ago, Shady93 said:

No Subclass

hardly ever, honestly. only reason i ever use a no-subclass wizard is because sometimes i pick up aloth and he's no subclass by default.

 

43 minutes ago, Shady93 said:

Evoker for a SC Wizard?

yep!

 

43 minutes ago, Shady93 said:

I like to be the main damage dealer in a party, but not sure if i can deal with losing spells,

think of this way - you're not actually losing spells if all you ever cast are evocation spells (plus enchantment and illusion). you're losing deadweight. you're focusing! as an evoker, you'll look over at fassina summoning a staff and be like pffft who needs a staff when i just toss a bajilion fireballs into the fight. plus, it helps a lot that an evoker still retains access to almost all the unique spells in the game, so compared to a conjurer (like fassina) you actually give up very little.

 

47 minutes ago, Shady93 said:

Is there a big difference between the two in dps?

a big difference? not really. the bonus PL gives you a nice edge, and can help a lot when it means a avoiding underpenetration and/or getting an extra projectile, but it's not game-breaking. it might seem like a huge cost to pay to give up two schools completely in exchange for a little bit of extra damage with one school (and slightly longer recovery for two others), but if you were already going to cast the specialized spells a lot anyway, then the cost is almost zero and the benefit is greater than zero.

the evoker echo bonus, however, is something else altogether. again, on average it won't really make a big dent in dps, because really how it plays out is that the vast majority of times (85+%) nothing big happens, but every once and a while you'll get a tide-turning duplication. You won't really feel it too much in early levels where duplicating some magic missiles is kinda meh, but later on duplicating stuff like Ninagauth's Shadowflame, Delayed Fireball, or a tier 9 evocation spell can just determine an entire fight in one go. No joke I got a lucky duplication of an empowered missile salvo in the first oracle boss fight in forgotten sanctum, and my evoker basically single-handedly ended the fight then and there.

[Shai Hulud]

You'd lose not only conjuration but also transmutation spells with Evoker, and transmutation has some of the best spells especially early. Slicken, Chill Fog, Combusting Wounds, Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon, Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar, and Pull of Eora to name a few. 

And on conjuration side you lose *Wall of Draining*, which is arguably the best spell in the game. Also some great buffs like Arcane Veil in addition to weapons and phantoms.

Not saying don't go evoker, it could still be worth it depending how you want to use the character but just be aware of the tradeoffs.

[thelee]

17 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

You'd lose not only conjuration but also transmutation spells with Evoker, and transmutation has some of the best spells especially early. Slicken, Chill Fog, Combusting Wounds, Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon, Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar, and Pull of Eora to name a few. 

19 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

And on conjuration side you lose *Wall of Draining*, which is arguably the best spell in the game. Also some great buffs like Arcane Veil in addition to weapons and phantoms.

those are all spells you can live without comfortably. Slicken, Combusting Wounds, and Wall of Draining I would consider spells to be so good as to be busted, but there's plenty of other good build/playstyle opportunities that you don't miss out on much by not using them. (Frankly I haven't used Slicken and Wall of Draining actually in ages and don't really miss them.)

It's loss-aversion in a nutshell. There's too much focus on "oh man you lose these spells." I would challenge OP to just go with a specialist wizard and play it, in practice you'll rarely ever miss the spells you lose because you still have a lot of spells you can use to great effect (esp evoker). The only wizard specialization that feels particularly restrictive is Conjuration but I still end up using Fassina a lot to great success (and conjurers anyhow get that good familiar summon).

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

those are all spells you can live without comfortably. Slicken, Combusting Wounds, and Wall of Draining I would consider spells to be so good as to be busted, but there's plenty of other good build/playstyle opportunities that you don't miss out on much by not using them. (Frankly I haven't used Slicken and Wall of Draining actually in ages and don't really miss them.)

It's loss-aversion in a nutshell. There's too much focus on "oh man you lose these spells." I would challenge OP to just go with a specialist wizard and play it, in practice you'll rarely ever miss the spells you lose because you still have a lot of spells you can use to great effect (esp evoker). The only wizard specialization that feels particularly restrictive is Conjuration but I still end up using Fassina a lot to great success (and conjurers anyhow get that good familiar summon).

Loss aversion? I use every one of these spells regularly which is why I listed them. One can work around their absence, but why bother unless you just want a particular challenge or unique flavor? Wizard subclasses are not well-balanced in this game IMO. 

OP is free to do what they like I'm just saying some very good spells can no longer be cast (with longer recovery for even more) which makes a questionable tradeoff. 

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

why bother unless you just want a particular challenge or unique flavor?

i mean, the why bother is the +2 PL and the unique bonus (though that pretty much does not exist for transmuters).

one can certainly go around and decree that any wizard build that doesn't pick up combusting wounds or wall of draining sucks, or is a challenge build, but in my mind cheese is cheese and exists in a separate spectrum from "effective", which is a much broader tent

[Okkes]

I mean since Blood mage exists there are not much reason for not choosing it. You also get +1 power level stacks with everything(when you blood sacriface). +1 power level and %15 echo bonus not worth going evoker imo. Only downside you lose empower but quantity better than quality.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Okkes

[Shai Hulud]

14 minutes ago, thelee said:

i mean, the why bother is the +2 PL and the unique bonus (though that pretty much does not exist for transmuters).

one can certainly go around and decree that any wizard build that doesn't pick up combusting wounds or wall of draining sucks, or is a challenge build, but in my mind cheese is cheese and exists in a separate spectrum from "effective", which is a much broader tent

That isn't what I meant (or said). OP expressed concern over losing spells and I listed some of the better ones. I even said "Not saying don't go evoker, it could still be worth it depending how you want to use the character but just be aware of the tradeoffs." Don't know where cheese vs. effective distinction came in.

[thelee]

28 minutes ago, Okkes said:

I mean since Blood mage exists there are not much reason for not choosing it. You also get +1 power level stacks with everything(when you blood sacriface). +1 power level and %15 echo bonus not worth going evoker imo. Only downside you lose empower but quantity better than quality.

i'm inclined to very slightly disagree when it comes to single-class. it's undoubtable that blood mage is consistently powerful especially early game, but the game is not so difficult (that is, when talking about party mode + potd + challenges, a whole other story if you do solo or something) that you need the resource regen. In the end I've personally gotten much more bullish on empowering high-level spells + the empower passives. If the entire fight is already over as soon as it starts, you don't really need blood sacrifice  

edit - just to emphasize that this is only a consideration for single-class. multiclass don't get the really juicy high-level spells, or enough skill points to spare on all the empower passives.

Edited May 17, 2023 by thelee

[Shady93]

Thanks for the responses guys. Afterall , i think i will go with Evoker. I don't really care much about the most effective/optimal or most op way to play the game, i like to use "flashy" spells and abilities that look good and have my character kind of be the star of the show and Evoker seem to be the best option for that. Thanks for all the input 

[Hariwulf]

This thread actually helped me out as well.

I am planning an all Single-Class casters run with  Wizard MC  + Aloth + Fassina (so at least 3 dedicated pure casters) for my next run, and had a hard time deciding between Evo, Blood, or Pure for my main.

While having access to all spells available seems sooo good, I kinda see a possibly more beneficial interaction with an Evoker MC for Burst, which would leave Aloth as CC, and Fassina  in melle or on priority targets.

Last 2 slots could be a Priest or a Druid, and maybe a Cipher. I can foresee a lot of mayhem on such a team.

 

That said, I am open to hear thoughts and ideas from anyone!

Edited August 3, 2023 by Hariwulf

[dgray62]

I prefer BM over Evoker because I hate losing access to spells, especially Chillfog and Combusting Wounds, two of my favorite spells. The flexibility of being able to cast whatever you want whenever you want, plus the +1 PL from blood sacrifice and the constant regeneration, outweighs the +2 PL for evocation only and the small chance of repeat casting those spell, IMO. Also, I don't like resting, so I never empower spells unless I'm playing a chanter, so BM takes away an option I'm not inclined to use anyway. As for your party, if you're not fixed on the SC idea I'd recommend taking Fassina as a sorcerer, so you can add nice druid healing spells to your party. Then take a SC priest and SC cipher as your final two.

[Okkes]

Yeah when you get used to no rest run you don't wanna return to normal run