Does shot on the run do anything?

[ArnoldRimmer]

I took "shot on the run" for the first time ever for my ranger as I want him to move a lot like legolas in the films. I assumed he could then shoot faster but I really don't see the recovery bar dropping any faster when he moves around. How exactly is this ability to be used?

[NotDumbEnough]

If you DON'T have it your recovery bar drops much slower.

[ArnoldRimmer]

That is my problem, i really do not see much of a difference at the moment.

[Boeroer]

Difference between what?

Usually the recovery of ranged weapons is greatly increased while moving. If you carry a bow and run around then your recovery should be much slower/longer as if you stand still.

IIrc it's *1.5 while moving.

Shot on the Run should make the recovery while runnig as fast as the recovery time when you stand still (but not faster than that). 

So if you have the same recovery speed while running that you have while standing: it works. If your recovery while running is much slower (and basically the same as before you took the ability): it doesn't work.

You can only see a difference (without the ability) with the recovery bar over your char's head. The tooltip numbers won't show the effect of moving around. For testing you can count the seconds after a shot while standing still and then do the same when running. Or you can watch your recovery bar while standing, then move a bit (will decrease more slowly) and stnd again (will pick up speed). This is best seen with a weaon that has very long recovery, for example rod+modal. Or a warbow if you don't have the rod modal. 

I made a quick in-game test with the console - and for me it works as it should (as I described above). 

Tl;dr: without "Shot on the Run" recovery will be 1.5 times longer while moving, with Shot on the Run it will be the same as if you stand.

[Kaylon]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Shot on the Run should make the recovery while runnig as fast as the recovery time when you stand still (but not faster than that). 

No, in fact Shot on the Run makes you attack faster than normal because of the double inversion - it gives -50% recovery while moving (like Rapid Fire modal) but of course you get also the 50% penalty which will reduce a little its effectiveness.

[ArnoldRimmer]

Do abilities that let you move really fast also count to reducing recovery? Like Escape, Evasive Roll or Leap? I guess not?

I will try counting the time whilst standing still, it's difficult when moving to tell if it is reducing faster or not.

[Boeroer]

On 7/24/2022 at 6:49 AM, Kaylon said:

No, in fact Shot on the Run makes you attack faster than normal because of the double inversion - it gives -50% recovery while moving (like Rapid Fire modal) but of course you get also the 50% penalty which will reduce a little its effectiveness.

I didn't want to delve into the mechanics but make it clear that it's not intended as a speed buff compared to the normal recovery.

It may be a little faster than the normal recovery - but it's not noticable for the usual player (OP showcases this).

I personally wouldn't spend a precious ability point for it if I didn't build a kiting character.

On 7/24/2022 at 11:20 AM, ArnoldRimmer said:

Do abilities that let you move really fast also count to reducing recovery? Like Escape, Evasive Roll or Leap? I guess not?

 You are right, they do not. In fact they don't count as moving at all. Effects that happen when you move (Arterial Strike for example) or that restrict movement (Large Shield modal, stuck affliction etc.) don't apply at all. 

On 7/24/2022 at 11:20 AM, ArnoldRimmer said:

I will try counting the time whilst standing still, it's difficult when moving to tell if it is reducing faster or not.

It might be a lil' faster when you move, but the animation transition from running to shoting will take some frames, too. With rel. short recovery times (like Hunting Bows) it will be very hard to tell a difference and it's not worth trying to exploit that imo. Also you'll have to pause a ton to get the timing right which will steal no in-game time, but time in real life.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by Boeroer

[ArnoldRimmer]

So is there any point to taking this ability? Does anyone ever use it?

[Boeroer]

I don't. But if you run around a lot while shooting it is worth taking it imo. 

If you are only moving occasionally (for example to get away from enemies or get into firing range) I don't think it's worth it. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:29 PM, Boeroer said:

Yes, I was a bit imprecise but didn't want to delve into the mechanics but make it clear that it's not intended as a speed buff compared to the normal recovery.

It's indeed a little faster than the normal recovery - but it's barely noticable for the usual player (OP showcases this).

I personally wouldn't spend a precious ability point for it if I didn't build a kiting character.

I think it makes so little sense that I'm considering addressing it by mod, so the bonus exactly compensate for the penalty instead.

Since it would be a nerf to what could be considered as a mehish talent, I might consider adding extra properties to the ability.

Bonus movement speed, bonus defenses vs disengagement... or maybe simply making the No Recovery Penalty universal rather than only for ranged weapons ? It would favor Ranger Multiclass such as the Kitting Mage builds (DAoM...), or basically anything with Disengagement resistance (being able to change target freely between melee swings isn't bad, and can be exploited by Riposte Disengagement builds).

Edited July 26, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Kaylon]

24 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I think it makes so little sense that I'm considering addressing it by mod, so the bonus exactly compensate for the penalty instead.

Since it would be a nerf to what could be considered as a mehish talent, I might consider adding extra properties to the ability.

Bonus movement speed, bonus defenses vs disengagement... or maybe simply making the No Recovery Penalty universal rather than only for ranged weapons ? It would favor Ranger Multiclass such as the Kitting Mage builds (DAoM...), or basically anything with Disengagement resistance (being able to change target freely between melee swings isn't bad, and can be exploited by Riposte Disengagement builds).

What's the point of nerfing abilities? I think it's fine like it is and I always pick it for my archers. Once you know how much you have to move between shots it works like a passive recovery reduction.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Kaylon said:

What's the point of nerfing abilities? I think it's fine like it is and I always pick it for my archers. Once you know how much you have to move between shots it works like a passive recovery reduction.

Recovering faster while moving than while not moving does not make any sens and is clearly an oversight due to the devs messing with their own double inversions. Basically it is a bug IMHO.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Elric Galad

[yorname]

What about making the character able to actually shoot on the run? Like drastically reduce attack animation for ranged weapons and make recovery normal. Interrupt immunity while moving might be a small but useful addition.

Or is it technically possible to make automatic shots without a real "attack" action? Although this is also more problematic in terms of balance I guess.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, yorname said:

What about making the character able to actually shoot on the run? Like drastically reduce attack animation for ranged weapons and make recovery normal. Interrupt immunity while moving might be a small but useful addition.

Attack animation can't be drastically reduced without drastically reducing recovery too.

1 hour ago, yorname said:

Or is it technically possible to make automatic shots without a real "attack" action? Although this is also more problematic in terms of balance I guess.

I don't know a way to do that apart for Riposte attack. Consider that Evasive Fire is fluff-wise meant to do that, but implemented it in a way decorrelated from your actual weapon. I guess you can't do otherwise with the hard-code.

 

Also I don't want to do something too original (That's not BPM intent ) or too complicated to program (so potentially buggy). Current Shot on the Run isn't that far from being ok. 

[thelee]

On 7/23/2022 at 9:49 PM, Kaylon said:

No, in fact Shot on the Run makes you attack faster than normal because of the double inversion - it gives -50% recovery while moving (like Rapid Fire modal) but of course you get also the 50% penalty which will reduce a little its effectiveness.

you would be right but your numbers are mixed up between poe1 and poe2. in poe1 you have a 50% recovery penalty, in poe2 you have a 100% recovery penalty. the inversions work out just right so that in poe2 you have no penalty whatsoever with shot on the run. (+100% penalty combined wiht an inverted -50% recovery bonus)

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Recovering faster while moving than while not moving does not make any sens and is clearly an oversight due to the devs messing with their own double inversions. Basically it is a bug IMHO.

if there's a bug, it's different than what kaylon says - in poe1 shot on the run only erased half the recovery penalty, in poe2 it seems by accident it erases the entire recovery penalty. but the talent is niche enough that it's not worth addressing imo.

 

anyway, while niche, i think it's pretty handy for kiters or part-time archer/casters. once i learned that it completely cancels out the movement penalty for ranged weapons, i figure that once you have it there's no reason to not be running around in between attacks, which aids a lot in survivability and casting positioning.

 

none of this applies to reloading weapons though.
 

edit: further reading - https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/ranged-weapon-recovery

Edited July 26, 2022 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, thelee said:

you would be right but your numbers are mixed up between poe1 and poe2. in poe1 you have a 50% recovery penalty, in poe2 you have a 100% recovery penalty. the inversions work out just right so that in poe2 you have no penalty whatsoever with shot on the run. (+100% penalty combined wiht an inverted -50% recovery bonus)

if there's a bug, it's different than what kaylon says - in poe1 shot on the run only erased half the recovery penalty, in poe2 it seems by accident it erases the entire recovery penalty. but the talent is niche enough that it's not worth addressing imo.

 

anyway, while niche, i think it's pretty handy for kiters or part-time archer/casters. once i learned that it completely cancels out the movement penalty for ranged weapons, i figure that once you have it there's no reason to not be running around in between attacks, which aids a lot in survivability and casting positioning.

 

none of this applies to reloading weapons though.
 

edit: further reading - https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/ranged-weapon-recovery

OK, so, I trust you, +100% Recovery penalty and -50% Recovery should indeed completely cancel themselves.

No bug, so no need of any change. 

[Boeroer]

I thought that it was a tiny bit faster than normal while I tested it and just counted the seconds - but that just may have been my imagination. It's a bit difficult to watch the recovery bar while running around - and frankly I forgot to slow the game down but did the test at the highest game speed (which wasn't the smartest thing to do, heh).
But as I said it seemed absolutely negligible. So I think +100% -50% is correct. +50%-50% would lead to a much more visible difference I assume.   

Edited July 28, 2022 by Boeroer

[thelee]

yeah the test is very annoying, i actually recruited my wife to stand around bored so i just had a spare set of hands to start/stop the stopwatch repeatedly while i was clicking around to move.

Quote

+50%-50% would lead to a much more visible difference I assume.   

yeah, +50% -50% is equivalent to being in a chill fog (+50% recovery penalty) as a swashbuckler (-50% recovery time bonus), which is a killer and obvious speed up. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by thelee