The All Things Political Topic - Those who do not move, do not notice their chains

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

CRT has become one of those things that seems to mean different things to different people. I mean it is a thing and it does have an objective definition. But like most bogeymen it takes on different meanings to different folks. I tend to think of the way it addresses historical inequality as well meaning but also self defeating. Just my $.02

Personally I'm far more put off by the way they are teaching math these days. They are taking very simple operations like  multiplication and division and making them complex by using numberline construction rather than just simple memorization. It's convoluted and IMO will make more advanced concepts in algebra harder to do. 

But, that is just my opinion. I don't have kids. Never going to. And I already know how to do advanced math so I don't really care. Plus it could just me viewing it through the vanity of my own knowledge. After all if I know how to do it then the way I learned to do must be the only way right?  

The simple memorization is still an option (unless you have a bad math teacher.) But the focus is on developing complex critical thinking skills that can apply to a wide spectrum of problems instead of just memorizing 9x8=72. I do the same thing in Social Science. I don't care if you can memorize names and dates. I want you to be able to recognize trends and analyze cause and effect. 

I mean we all have calculators and phones with the entirety of human knowledge in our possession. We don't need to be able to remember basic trivia, we need to be able to think critically.

But I digress.

edit: I'm also only referring to elementary level math. I have no idea what is happening at the High School level.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Hurlsnot

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I don't know, or care, enough about it to formulate an informed opinion of CRT as a teaching program. If I had kids in school I guess I would care. Or if I actually gave a damn about the future of this society after I've shuffled off this mortal coil. 

I do absolutely think the inequalities and terrible treatment of our fellow humans both by individuals and systems of governance should be taught in full and brutal detail with no sensibilities spared. The whole "Lost Cause" alternative history of the Civil War is rooted in sparing the feelings of people alive to today by finding virtue someplace there was little to be had. People who believe it are basically good and grab onto it because they do not want to believe their ancestors were not. 

But at the same time I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them. All of these criticisms have been made of CRT. 

This is an interesting and  objective post, thanks for sharing 

[Pidesco]

12 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I don't know, or care, enough about it to formulate an informed opinion of CRT as a teaching program. If I had kids in school I guess I would care. Or if I actually gave a damn about the future of this society after I've shuffled off this mortal coil. 

I do absolutely think the inequalities and terrible treatment of our fellow humans both by individuals and systems of governance should be taught in full and brutal detail with no sensibilities spared. The whole "Lost Cause" alternative history of the Civil War is rooted in sparing the feelings of people alive to today by finding virtue someplace there was little to be had. People who believe it are basically good and grab onto it because they do not want to believe their ancestors were not. 

But at the same time I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them. All of these criticisms have been made of CRT. 

The point is that those past deeds and policies are still clearly and definitely negatively affecting people today. To ignore that not only does it not make the problems go away, but rather it keeps them around in perpetuity.

[Hurlshort]

25 minutes ago, Achilles said:

More book recommendations

I haven't read this, but I do agree with the premise. My daughter is doing functional math in her construction class and it will probably serve her much more than the what she is doing in algebra. 

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

The point is that those past deeds and policies are still clearly and definitely negatively affecting people today. To ignore that not only does it not make the problems go away, but rather it keeps them around in perpetuity.

Nah, that just sounds like the " I cannot get ahead in life because of colonialism " card 

[Pidesco]

Just now, BruceVC said:

Nah, that just sounds like the " I cannot get ahead in life because of colonialism " card 

Selective reading is indeed quite a bother.

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Achilles said:

More book recommendations

Well, sounds like something people who suck at math will eat up....

Is a shame the way they taught us math in school, looking back they really could have done stuff like linear algebra or calculus earlier, done that way you take nice small bites and nothing much to be scared of.

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Hurlsnot said:

The simple memorization is still an option (unless you have a bad math teacher.) But the focus is on developing complex critical thinking skills that can apply to a wide spectrum of problems instead of just memorizing 9x8=72. I do the same thing in Social Science. I don't care if you can memorize names and dates. I want you to be able to recognize trends and analyze cause and effect. 

I mean we all have calculators and phones with the entirety of human knowledge in our possession. We don't need to be able to remember basic trivia, we need to be able to think critically.

But I digress.

edit: I'm also only referring to elementary level math. I have no idea what is happening at the High School level.

Which is reason why classes that teach critical thinking are now more important than ever, because if you aren't able to real knowledge from falsehoods that pool of knowledge in your hand does little to help you, but instead leads you to hazardous waters of false information that has high likely hood cause damage to you and people around you.  

[Achilles]

27 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, sounds like something people who suck at math will eat up....

Is a shame the way they taught us math in school, looking back they really could have done stuff like linear algebra or calculus earlier, done that way you take nice small bites and nothing much to be scared of.

As someone who sucks at math, I needed some convincing. I think by the time I finished the book, I felt better about the argument presented.

The argument isn't that math isn't important and that we shouldn't teach it, rather let's refocus on teaching the "right" things to the "right" audiences and stop using higher level math as a gatekeeping device.

[Malcador]

12 minutes ago, Achilles said:

As someone who sucks at math, I needed some convincing. I think by the time I finished the book, I felt better about the argument presented.

The argument isn't that math isn't important and that we shouldn't teach it, rather let's refocus on teaching the "right" things to the "right" audiences and stop using higher level math as a gatekeeping device.

Well, am curious enough, (**** paying $17 for it though ).  How did he mean it's used as a gatekeeping device (other than obviously making sure engineers aren't morons that don't know derivatives) in the book ?  Also determining who to teach it to makes me think of streaming, which has its issues.

 

[Achilles]

4 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, am curious enough, (**** paying $17 for it though ).  How did he mean it's used as a gatekeeping device (other than obviously making sure engineers aren't morons that don't know derivatives) in the book ?  Also determining who to teach it to makes me think of streaming, which has its issues.

 

It's funny that you bring up engineers as an example (he does also). "Engineer" is a broad term. Do petrochemical engineers and structural engineers need the same courses? There are "engineers" walking the planet right now who had to learn a lot of math they've never used and never will use.

Do you think the average high school student would benefit more from 4 years of financial literacy (understanding taxes, budgets, compounding interest, etc) or 4 years of calculus?

[Malcador]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/coronavirus/os-ne-raul-pino-administrative-leave-20220118-urh66o22kre2voe3kockmfoz3q-story.html

Sources who spoke to the Orlando Sentinel on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss Pino’s status said he was placed on administrative leave after a Health Department employee complained about an email he sent Jan. 4 to agency staff about employee vaccination rates.

Florida is an odd place.

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, Achilles said:

It's funny that you bring up engineers as an example (he does also). "Engineer" is a broad term. Do petrochemical engineers and structural engineers need the same courses? There are "engineers" walking the planet right now who had to learn a lot of math they've never used and never will use.

Do you think the average high school student would benefit more from 4 years of financial literacy (understanding taxes, budgets, compounding interest, etc) or 4 years of calculus?

Same courses in University ? No, but from my experience in school as an engineer if you don't know calculus at a decent level (integrals mainly) you're in for a rough time (other than maybe Computer Engineering, which I've always felt didn't really warrant the title although I am one).  In their job they won't use it all that much, but is necessary to understand fundamentals - particularly as some go on to research.    But other than that, just curious how he meant it as gatekeeping, been a while but don't recall if it was a requirement for fields more removed than math.

Calculus is interesting as all it is for the most part is breaking things down into small amounts and scaling up as needed. 4 years of that and you should be well primed to understand things as comparatively simple as budgets and taxes, hah.  Guess though you have to count on the kids being a good judge or being judged well of what they want to go ahead and do in life, if you're going to tailor math teaching to them.

 

[Gromnir]

4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

I don't know, or care, enough about it to formulate an informed opinion of CRT as a teaching program. 

 

But at the same time I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them. All of these criticisms have been made of CRT. 

there you go. now even gd can see where his problem on this is, yes? indulge a trumpist "some people say" kinda response?

...

regardless, crt is not being taught to middle or high school kids anywhere, so is weird gd just kinda accepts and parrots the criticisms level'd at crt in spite o' fact they is coming from same sources telling him crt is being taught to cindy lou who at sebastian j. mcgrinch middle school in nakipoo, tennessee.

not 'bout apologies. is definite not overdramatizing. is not 'bout victimization, though am s'posing some could read that way if they read into it what they wanna... which is kinda reflexive natural anytime race is an issue. crt is an all-inclusive theory which posits racism is normal and becomes codified in laws. racism natural is extreme well entrenched in societies and w/o serious and real pressures, typical economic forces, racism continues in part 'cause is utter pervasive and self perpetuating... but do not repeat this gross oversimplification back to us 'cause again, is comical simplified.

our criticism o' crt is that a bunch o' lawyers came up with a theory focused on the laws o' nations as evidence and explanation for racism, the universe and everything. if somebody tells you they cracked the code on economics or political systems, chances are you laugh at them for their arrogance, then spend effort reading their argument, then laugh at them again 'cause they proved you correct for laughing at them the first time. 

crt is deserving to be taught to harvard lawyers, which were the original use o' the theory, in small part to get 'em to consider racism as something pervasive but normal which could be analyzed a bit more dispassionate. crt doesn't need be true to be useful from an education standpoint if it manages to promote critical thinking o' a complex issue all too often drowned in rhetoric. the effort to take the moral and emotional outta racism is maybe ironic given how much o' a kerfuffle crt has created, though again, is race, so 'course people is gonna lose their water at the mere mention. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 19, 2022 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

8 hours ago, Gromnir said:

there you go. now even gd can see where his problem on this is, yes? indulge a trumpist "some people say" kinda response?

...

 

In my case that some people is The NY Post, Brookings, The Nashville Tennessean AND the Commercial Appeal  (neither if which is "right wing") and other places of the like. The theory DOES have detractors other than angry parents, Republican politicians, and nutjobs wearing Viking helmets and painted faces running through the halls of the capital. 

Personally I do not give a f--k about it. Teach it in college. Teach it in kindergarten. Do. Not Care. When multiple informed sources I find credible (meaning not the types I listed) make the same observations I figure there is at least a grain of truth in them. 

I have less than zero interest in actually learning the details so I'll take the word of credible sources  and rephrase my comment thusly:  If the criticisms of CRT that have been reported in multiple media outlets that I personally find credible are true then I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them.

Better? I'm sure the CRT program makes for interesting reading but right now all my time is dedicated to resolving non-linear interactions caused by slit diffraction  on the cheap chinese antennas this company wasted it's capital on. 

 

[Guard Dog]

11 hours ago, Achilles said:

It's funny that you bring up engineers as an example (he does also). "Engineer" is a broad term. Do petrochemical engineers and structural engineers need the same courses? There are "engineers" walking the planet right now who had to learn a lot of math they've never used and never will use.

Do you think the average high school student would benefit more from 4 years of financial literacy (understanding taxes, budgets, compounding interest, etc) or 4 years of calculus?

In the US all engineering disciplines start with a core set of classes that everyone takes before the classes of whatever discipline they picked. Statics, Dynamics, Fluid Mechanics, Strength of Materials 1 & 2, and a programming language. For me that was Fortan so that tells you how old I am. Calculus 1 & 2 and Differential Equations are a prerequisite for all of them. And you will not get past them without that knowledge. And it only gets more in depth from there. I have a BSEE and my specialty in antenna design and RF network design. Fourier transforms are a big part of my profession and if you don't know integrals and diff eq you can not do my job.

What you said, suggesting that higher math is some kind of gatekeeper holding kids down it way off the mark IMO. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest everyone be made to take it. There is no benefit in that. especially if their career plans don't need it.  But if they do not the doors to STEM will be forever closed to them.  And they definitely should be.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

In my case that some people is The NY Post, Brookings, The Nashville Tennessean AND the Commercial Appeal  (neither if which is "right wing") and other places of the like. The theory DOES have detractors other than angry parents, Republican politicians, and nutjobs wearing Viking helmets and painted faces running through the halls of the capital. 

Personally I do not give a f--k about it. Teach it in college. Teach it in kindergarten. Do. Not Care. When multiple informed sources I find credible (meaning not the types I listed) make the same observations I figure there is at least a grain of truth in them. 

I have less than zero interest in actually learning the details so I'll take the word of credible sources  and rephrase my comment thusly:  If the criticisms of CRT that have been reported in multiple media outlets that I personally find credible are true then I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them.

Better? I'm sure the CRT program makes for interesting reading but right now all my time is dedicated to resolving non-linear interactions caused by slit diffraction  on the cheap chinese antennas this company wasted it's capital on. 

 

Good points raised, there are plenty of credible media houses and independent analysts who have raised concerns with the entire notion of CRT and what its trying to create in the US education system 

So its not just  a Conservative\Trump\Right-wing conspiracy theory despite what many people claim it to be

But the good news is its been banned in many states and hopefully will continue to be banned 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by BruceVC

[Achilles]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

In the US all engineering disciplines start with a core set of classes that everyone takes before the classes of whatever discipline they picked. Statics, Dynamics, Fluid Mechanics, Strength of Materials 1 & 2, and a programming language.

And every single flavor of engineer will need/use all of that? If not, then it sounds like gatekeeping

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Fourier transforms are a big part of my profession and if you don't know integrals and diff eq you can not do my job.

Sounds like someone who does your job should definitely take those classes then.

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

What you said, suggesting that higher math is some kind of gatekeeper holding kids down it way off the mark IMO

First, I was paraphrasing the book. Second, neither the author nor I said anything about "holding kids down". Lastly, and this is possibly apropos of nothing at this point, engineering is one example.

The argument is that some degree tracks require math that the students do not need. This in turn forces college-bound high school students to take math they do not need as part of their preparation. And so on.

Meanwhile there is probably other stuff involving numbers that students would see a greater benefit from learning.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 

Personally I do not give a f--k about it.

 

and yet here we are... again.

lord only knows why you would mention the nypost as some kinda source for credible and true news reporting. you gotta be joking. having a little joke to see if Gromnir paid attention to your laundry list?

however, we would be curious to see an actual brookings article which convinced you crt is guilty o' the following:

"I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them."

keep in mind the considerable number o' times we has heard you claim a source said something which it most certainly did not, leading us to correct you. so you throwing out names o' publications sans links or quotes is less than convincing given your track record for suspect recollections. no doubt you will come back and tell us you misremembered or thought it were brookings instead o'... whatever.

am also having no idea what a local tennessee print sources is telling you, or whether they got a noteworthy skew. perhaps forgot to mention the info were gleaned via an opinion piece or somesuch?

nypost? serious?

HA! Good Fun!

ps:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/02/why-are-states-banning-critical-race-theory/

CRT does not attribute racism to white people as individuals or even to entire groups of people. Simply put, critical race theory states that U.S. social institutions (e.g., the criminal justice system, education system, labor market, housing market, and healthcare system) are laced with racism embedded in laws, regulations, rules, and procedures that lead to differential outcomes by race.

...

Scholars and activists who discuss CRT are not arguing that white people living now are to blame for what people did in the past. They are saying that white people living now have a moral responsibility to do something about how racism still impacts all of our lives today.

...

The approach of some Republican-led state legislatures is a method for continuing to roll back racial progress regarding everything from voting rights to police reform. This is a horrible idea and does an injustice to our kids. Laws forbidding any teacher or lesson from mentioning race/racism, and even gender/sexism, would put a chilling effect on what educators are willing to discuss in the classroom and provide cover for those who are not comfortable hearing or telling the truth about the history and state of race relations in the United States. Ironically, “making laws outlawing critical race theory confirms the point that racism is embedded in the law,” as sociologist Victor Ray noted.

...

dude.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Gromnir

[Amentep]

7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

If the criticisms of CRT that have been reported in multiple media outlets that I personally find credible are true then I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them.

The problem, I think, is that what a lot of people are railing about isn't CRT.  Its stuff like the 1619 Project and other educational approaches to presenting information about historical and systemic racism.  They've been lumped together behind CRT because CRT was a easier way to refer to a group of things that some people don't like / find uncomfortable / think is skewed.  I find it notable that all of the people railing against things like the 1619 Project and other efforts to provide more context to various topics suddenly pivoted to CRT; the only reason I can think is that it was pithy, easy to refer to and had "race" in the title, so everything that anyone didn't like could easily assume CRT contained it.

 

6 hours ago, Achilles said:

And every single flavor of engineer will need/use all of that? If not, then it sounds like gatekeeping

Most education is built around the idea of giving a broad foundational knowledge.  What you consider "gatekeeping", most educators would feel is providing a large enough scope of knowledge for the student to be able to adjust to problems that may not fit entirely into one field or the other later on in their career.  Or that may be more useful from a perspective of how you relate as an employee (say writing and communication courses) vs how you accomplish the tasks assigned to you (major courses).

Its, of course, a huge area of debate in Higher Ed, as there are people who believe that getting students through school and into a job as quickly as possible is more important than continuing with the traditional rounded education (and to be fair, most Engineering schools have probably paired the non-essential course down to the barest minimum.  I know the local university trading heavily in Engineering students starts students in Calculus as no other math is as applicable to the majors).

[BruceVC]

48 minutes ago, Amentep said:

The problem, I think, is that what a lot of people are railing about isn't CRT.  Its stuff like the 1619 Project and other educational approaches to presenting information about historical and systemic racism.  They've been lumped together behind CRT because CRT was a easier way to refer to a group of things that some people don't like / find uncomfortable / think is skewed.  I find it notable that all of the people railing against things like the 1619 Project and other efforts to provide more context to various topics suddenly pivoted to CRT; the only reason I can think is that it was pithy, easy to refer to and had "race" in the title, so everything that anyone didn't like could easily assume CRT contained it.

 

 

Have you ever considered maybe many white people are tired of being told your history and ancestors contribution is only  about oppression, racism and slavery and the countries where " all these terrible white people " live are mostly first world countries and countries where millions of people are desperate to immigrate to? So we cant be that bad right ...we must have done something right?

Just a thought 

[Amentep]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Have you ever considered maybe many white people are tired of being told your history and ancestors contribution is only  about oppression, racism and slavery and the countries where " all these terrible white people " live are mostly first world countries and countries where millions of people are desperate to immigrate to? So we cant be that bad right ...we must have done something right?

Just a thought 

I dunno, I'm old and most of my life I've been told the opposite, that the history of white people in America is pretty glorious (other than the trail of tears and that civil war thing and segregation).  Being told the converse is still novel, I guess.

Seriously, though, most of these things that I've read about aren't about telling white people they're all about colonial oppression (or, at least, their ancestors were), but actually trying to teach that there was colonial oppression which was traditionally glossed over back in my day (yeah it was there if you thought about it, but it wasn't really discussed a lot).  While there may be a point to argue that its possible to over simplify (and/or that some of these approaches are over simplifying) such that you're basically recreating the same problem in the opposite direction, I think its better to try to get at a best understanding of the past than to be "America great!" or "America bad!" without any critical thought on the subject.  And anyhow arguing that white people's contribution to history is racism and oppression really isn't what CRT is (even if that's what the people who rail against CRT wants it to be) as I understand it.

[BruceVC]

19 minutes ago, Amentep said:

I dunno, I'm old and most of my life I've been told the opposite, that the history of white people in America is pretty glorious (other than the trail of tears and that civil war thing and segregation).  Being told the converse is still novel, I guess.

Seriously, though, most of these things that I've read about aren't about telling white people they're all about colonial oppression (or, at least, their ancestors were), but actually trying to teach that there was colonial oppression which was traditionally glossed over back in my day (yeah it was there if you through about it, but it wasn't really discussed a lot).  While there may be a point to argue that its possible to over simplify (and/or that some of these approaches are over simplifying) such that you're basically recreating the same problem in the opposite direction, I think its better to try to get at a best understanding of the past than to be "America great!" or "America bad!" without any critical thought on the subject.  And anyhow arguing that white people's contribution to history is racism and oppression really isn't what CRT is (even if that's what the people who rail against CRT wants it to be) as I understand it.

Good post and objective as usual

I have been engaged in debates about colonialism, and similar topics,  and what some people think white people did or didnt do historically for about 12 years. Its not just about  the US, its global in mostly first world countries ( and SA ) but its not a debate that  leads to real political changes or white people suddenly being forced to pay unreasonable  redress even though some call for it. So I dont consider it something that anyone  should be overly concerned about. But it still gets raised and topics like CRT and Project 1619 ( Im just using them as an example ) are unhelpful if you really want to address racism or inequality 

In SA for example these types of debates are only probably 3-5% of the total topics that gets discussed  in our national narrative in the media . But I do bring it up on this forum because it get raised in the US narrative but I dont want to create the impression that I consider this topic as important as the many other challengers all our societies grapple with

Its just one of them. And then  a question, you say people should know the history of the good and bad of their country and that was glossed over? There are thousands of books, websites and documentaries on the slave trade and worst aspects of history of what white people  did. Its always been available for decades. Are you saying many Americans arent aware of the history of things like slavery? Because Colonialism is not a taboo subject and gets discussed all the time in different mediums in Europe and SA 

[Amentep]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Are you saying many Americans arent aware of the history of things like slavery? 

No I'm not saying that, and I can't really speak to how its presented now (as opposed to back in the day when I was in school) or even how it was done outside of my county in my state when I was a kid.

Also, having been educated in the south, while there were cracks in the "lost cause" narrative, it hadn't completely fallen apart when I was in school.  You couldn't avoid the topic of slavery, but that didn't mean that it addressed everything about it either.

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Have you ever considered maybe many white people are tired of being told your history and ancestors contribution is only  about oppression, racism and slavery and the countries where " all these terrible white people " live are mostly first world countries and countries where millions of people are desperate to immigrate to? So we cant be that bad right ...we must have done something right?

Just a thought 

Are any actually being told that ? I always see whining about that online but never much in the way of proof other than "my friend told me his prof told him..."