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The All things Political Topic - The Night never knew that its end was fleet.


Amentep

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4 minutes ago, Raithe said:

Of course, does this mean that Trump will now stop going on about how he got the troops out of Afghanistan, and that nothing Biden could do would stop it, and thus Trump stopped the war?

If I were him I would STFU. He was the one that negotiated the withdrawal and put a firm date so the Taliban would know when to attack. He keeps saying he would’ve done it differently, and maybe he would have. It certainly could have and should have been done very differently. Not the least of which was not abandoning millions upon millions of dollars worth of weapons, aircraft, vehicles, and other military supplies that now make the Taliban the best armed band of terrorists in the world. The logistical failures of Biden‘s withdrawal cannot be overstated. Of course none of that means Trump would’ve done a better job.

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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10 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

I would say Eisenhower after WWII was hugely important, as it was his military experience that allowed him to reign them in. Although it is likely that someone like Patton would have gone the opposite direction. 

Yep, but the list of them that have had some includes Nixon, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Bush as well. Seems fairly Navy heavy, interesting.  

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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4 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Yep, but the list of them that have had some includes Nixon, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Bush as well. Seems fairly Navy heavy, interesting.  

Reagan, both Bushes, Truman. Not Johnson. He was too young for World War I and too old for World War II. He never served. The US military was very small during his prime years.

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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I find it bit funny, how spokesmen for Nato, USA, UK, etc. constantly repeat in media that Taliban needs to follow human rights or ..., like are they planning to go back if they don't? I don't think such empty talk helps anyone.

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2 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Reagan, both Bushes, Truman. Not Johnson. He was too young for World War I and too old for World War II. He never served. The US military was very small during his prime years.

Ah right, not sure why I forgot Bush the Elder or Truman.  But LBJ was in WW2, he was 33 or so at the time so not that old at least going off of - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson#Active_military_duty_(1941–1942)

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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14 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Kennedy in ‘63 both in SE Asia and the Cuban Missile Crisis. 

Hmm. I took a class on this a long time ago. The professor's view was that the Bay of Pigs was the real teachable moment for Kennedy, and it was that failure that led to his handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

That's why I hate this constant parade of old people we seem to have in politics. Give me candidates that are capable of growth and change.

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26 minutes ago, Elerond said:

I find it bit funny, how spokesmen for Nato, USA, UK, etc. constantly repeat in media that Taliban needs to follow human rights or ..., like are they planning to go back if they don't? I don't think such empty talk helps anyone.

 

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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21 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

Hmm. I took a class on this a long time ago. The professor's view was that the Bay of Pigs was the real teachable moment for Kennedy, and it was that failure that led to his handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

That's why I hate this constant parade of old people we seem to have in politics. Give me candidates that are capable of growth and change.

Let me know when you find some. No one in politics today wants to admit they were wrong or may have made a mistake. It’s always someone else’s fault.

or like you said they’re too old and set in their ways

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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35 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

That's why I hate this constant parade of old people we seem to have in politics. Give me candidates that are capable of growth and change.

 

 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

The best line of this entire debacle came from a man named Tom Tugendhat, a British MP:

"to see their commander in chief president Joe Biden call into question the courage of men I fought with, to claim they ran. It's shameful. Those who have never fought for the colors they fly should be careful about criticizing those who have."

mr. tugendhat is indeed worth listening to regarding afghanistan, but cherry picking is a mistake. 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2021/08/16/amanpour-tugendhat-afghanistan.cnn

we already posted and you didn't cheer tugendhat at the time. ignore what you dislike and instead see rest as nothing but fuel for they are all bad bonfire? not convincing. travel back in time silliness is exact what tugendhat has been criticizing. solutions had to be worked out based on 2020 and 2021 situation, not as a way to end a perceived twenty year mistake. if as has been stated by so many that this situation was inevitable and that the taliban is the savages they has always been, then such admissions makes those who chose to sacrifice the afghanistan people to end a twenty year mistake are complicit in what is happening, yes?

again, perhaps you thinks this were the cost. perhaps you think this inevitability coulda' been delayed. perhaps you think no amount o' chaos in afhghanistan were worth another american's life fighting to preserve continued investments o' billions o' dollars just so we could keep perpetuating a situation nobody actual considered good much less ideal. fine. just keep in mind that you and mr. tugendhat is gonna be most assured disagreeing.

you wanna focus on biden words he said or didn't say fast enough regarding afghanistan or cuba 'cause you feel like such legitimizes your they are all bad pov. we can review the posts. you were in favor o' getting out o' afghanistan and getting out now. US intelligence worst case scenario envisioned weeks before afghanistan collapsed, not days. *shrug* yeah, no doubt as soon as trump negotiated for a may 2021 withdrawal, local afghanistan military commanders were similar negotiating with the taliban and planning their exit strategies just as were the afghanistan political leaders. this too were nothing new and shoulda' been known... and likely were known but vast underappreciated. regardless, given the charlie fox situation am thinking is safe to say folks in charge didn't know or weren't made aware until too late... and watching in real time in june what were happening were indeed too late.

you foresaw august 2021, or claim to, and nevertheless supported when the last two Presidents gave hard deadlines for a US withdrawal. as such, pretend like the great tragedy is US military equipment left behind and biden's disrespect o' afghanistan military is less than convincing. your cheering o' mr. turgedhat is also not convincing. got what you wanted and now are using to fuel your they are all bad ?

truth is it were folks like turgenhadt and not gd who were predicting that a return to taliban rule following trump's misguided and shotgun negotiations were gonna lead to tragedy. forseeing just this tragedy is exact why they saw continued investment in afghanistan were worth the cost. fact biden didn't put a stop to trump's plan but only delayed don't make him better than trump, but am gonna suggest gd is just playing his familiar role as the scorpion in yet another tragedy. 

Scorpion-and-frof-from-Coast-Breeze-News 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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2 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

That's why I hate this constant parade of old people we seem to have in politics. Give me candidates that are capable of growth and change.

Would require a brand new outlook on global affairs, and Americans don't seem quite ready for that yet.  Case in point:

Asian Americans reported being targeted at least 4,500 times this year (msn.com)

Asiatic commie filth are still painted targets in the eyes of Americans.  Nevermind the fact that the U.S. has the best universities and medical facilities in the world and people would rather move here than China, the idea that a Communist government could have the worlds largest economy and the West could be the primary benefactor from their produced goods and services, the U.S. appears obsessed with being #1 at everything, always.

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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Posted for the cheap laughs. Maybe I should have stuck it in the funnythings thread....

 

Edited by Raithe
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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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16 minutes ago, Raithe said:
Posted for the cheap laughs. Maybe I should have stuck it in the funnythings thread....
 

 

having watched fox coverage o' january 6, we wouldn't be shocked if at least a couple o' the talking heads were suggesting that floyd ray rosberry could be/might be antifa and trying to make trump look bad.

as an aside, this is not getting enough coverage.

“Imagining a judge enjoining a police department from a policy of using their resources to target bank robbers,” Colorado-based immigration attorney Aaron Hall mused via Twitter.

“Imagine a judge wanted to review all paperwork from every decision in [the] U.S. not to prosecute the maximum chargeable crime, and to have the names and addresses of every person not currently in jail awaiting trial,” tweeted Pa.-based immigration attorney Joe Gordon. “Now imagine that this person is in favor of limited government.”

magine being a biglaw [Federalist Society] guy that Trump made a judge one year ago, waking up one morning and deciding to make yourself the emperor of United States immigration policy,” added Third Circuit-focused appellate attorney Matthew Stiegler.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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3 hours ago, Malcador said:

Ah right, not sure why I forgot Bush the Elder or Truman.  But LBJ was in WW2, he was 33 or so at the time so not that old at least going off of - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson#Active_military_duty_(1941–1942)

You are right, he did serve. He wasn’t drafted. That was where I remembered from, it was a list of presidents who served after draft. LBJ volunteered. My mistake. 

Edited by Guard Dog
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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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sorta a ps

keep in mind biden's choices were actual worse than many is presenting. given the turd sandwich trump left behind with afghanistan, the immediate options were all kinda unpalatable. recall that the trump administration had arrived at a may 2021 deadline for withdrawal, a deadline established w/o the input o' the afghanistan government. trump had negotiated the release o' various taliban leaders from prison as a initial step in his "peace" process and no doubt if biden had chosen to ignore the trump deal, those terrorists woulda' simple shrugged and looked for other work. (<- sarcasm) as such, biden's choice were not simple to take the trump deal or to keep things as is in afghanistan. short-term, biden were gonna need send some significant number o' troops back to afghanistan if he did not honor trump's deal. 

@Amentep thanks. is what we get for not double-checking. we could fix, but you already have so...

HA! Good Fun!

 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

I believe he was referring to the Afghan military. Biden said they wouldn’t fight. They did fight and have been fighting and losing for a while now. But then it turns out half of their leader ship was already Taliban and the other half packed up a bunch of US dollars and fled.

Rank and file ANA was pretty well infiltrated by the Taliban too- that's always been a problem; if you have a nominal strength of ~350k and it's 'really' about half that if some random turns up you're not quite sure whether it's one of those ghost soldiers actually turning up or not. Certainly the top end of the ANA- the Commandos- fought very hard and was high quality, but it was a very top heavy workload for them. Near exact same thing happened with the US trained/ supported Iraqi response to ISIS in Iraq (ie not the PMU/ Hashd militia but their formal army) where the exact equivalent Golden Division did a massively disproportionate amount of the fighting, and suffered pretty ludicrous losses (~40% in the Battle of Mosul alone), while the rest of the army had plenty willing to fight but they mainly ended up actually doing the fighting with the PMUs because the formal army was... awful, as an army.

Indeed, if there's one thing that shows that the US/ NATO didn't learn the lesson from ISIS in Iraq* it was that the exact same mistakes made with the western trained army there existed and were repeated with the ANA, including only having one formation capable of genuine offensive actions. The main difference being the religious divide that meant that ISIS had no attraction to or ability to infiltrate shia areas, and that the Afghans never got time to properly organise a PMU equivalent when their formal army fell apart.

*Or Syria; while not western trained the situation in Syria was similar prior to 2015. They only had one formation capable of significant offensive acts ('Tiger Forces') and while they had plenty of people willing to fight the army as a whole was unreliable, leading to a lot of informal loyalist militia doing the actual fighting while army units were badly led and tended to fall apart if anything went wrong. As much as Russian intervention made a difference the development of 3 or 4 formations that could reliably launch attacks to take the strain off was at least as large a factor since it meant the Tiger Forces weren't constantly being moved from crisis to crisis

4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

If I were him I would STFU. He was the one that negotiated the withdrawal and put a firm date so the Taliban would know when to attack.

In the end Trump's set date did nothing, since Biden ignored it. Arguably Biden's set date did nothing either since the whole thing fell apart 4 weeks before it passed.

3 hours ago, Elerond said:

I find it bit funny, how spokesmen for Nato, USA, UK, etc. constantly repeat in media that Taliban needs to follow human rights or ..., like are they planning to go back if they don't? I don't think such empty talk helps anyone.

I've always found that sort of thing disproportionately annoying. It's the diplomatic equivalent of #StopKony2012.

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Mike Lindell Hiding Pro-Trump election worker in a safe house

what does  is it tell you when the most entertaining public figure in America today is a pillow salesman! When you stop taking this guy seriously (if you ever were dumb enough to do that) he is funny as hell.

Edited by Guard Dog

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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If I was hiding someone from the feds, I would simply not publicly declare it to a major media outlet. 

"To be fair, if I was married to Milla Jovovich, I would also be happy just making movies that show off her butt." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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On 8/20/2021 at 9:10 AM, Guard Dog said:

If I were him I would STFU.

Well that's Trump in a nutshell.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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‎Honestly with Bari Weiss: How We Failed Afghanistan (And Ourselves) with HR McMaster on Apple Podcasts

doubt most/any will listen in the entirety. nevertheless, many concerns discussed on these boards related to afghanistan is addressed in the podcast. got a US army general and former US national security advisor discussing issues o' the day.

HA! Good Fun!

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Ultimate insult? Taliban fighters mock iconic Iwo Jima flag-raising photo, posing in seized US military gear

Taliban mocks WW2 American G.I.s in Iwo Jima by raising the Taliban flag in Afghanistan clad in stolen American uniforms.

Not entirely sure pissing off the U.S. is wise right now considering that their long term goal should be to gain international recognition and formulating a more moderate Taliban and regional stability, not that the the U.S. centric media would cut them slack anyway anytime in the near future but still, working towards proving them somewhat wrong should be a priority methinks.

And just to get it out of the way, China appears amused by this whilst Russia appears more perplexed/skeptical.

_________________

Estimated amount of U.S. military equipment lost to the Taliban:

2,000 Humvees

As many as 40 aircraft, including Black Hawks, scout attack helicopters, and drones

600,000 M16 Assault rifles

162,000 pieces of communication equipment

16,000 night vision goggles.

^Some pretty good loot, if those numbers are even reasonably accurate.

Edited by ComradeYellow

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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1 hour ago, ComradeYellow said:

And just to get it out of the way, China appears amused by this whilst Russia appears more perplexed/skeptical.

Just guesswork on my part... China doesn't seem to understand the consequences of a zealous Muslim theocracy not that far from Uyghur lands, whereas Moscow probably still remember the war(s) in Chechnya and the threat posed by extremism in the Caucasus region.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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5 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Just guesswork on my part... China doesn't seem to understand the consequences of a zealous Muslim theocracy not that far from Uyghur lands, whereas Moscow probably still remember the war(s) in Chechnya and the threat posed by extremism in the Caucasus region.

Whoops, I meant the "Iwo Jima" picture, not the whole situation.

Both Beijing and Moscow showed signs of anxiety for the U.S. withdrawal, which is why they quickly sent in their diplomats in an effort to curtail the situation as best as possible.  Neither government has recognized the new government yet but early signs show that the Taliban and China-Russia have initially come to some level of successful dialogue, as the Taliban has so far been pretty lenient and even promised some quite surprising reforms (by Islamist standards of course!).  You won't hear that in Western media though, they're still stuck in "worst case scenario doom/gloom" mode.

If you know Eastern methods, the way the Taliban are now talking seems clearly inspired by it.

Signs suggest this isn’t the Taliban of old - Asia Times

Even the U.K. seems to agree that China-Russia can probably "moderate" the situation and is probably the best we can hope for at this point.

UK says Russia, China needed for 'moderating influence' over Taliban (msn.com)

Nobody knows how it'll play out yet but so far it's off to a good start, for a bad situation, that is ;)

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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