Questions about a Shifter Tank

[Manu22]

Hello everyone , I am playing solo with the Thundercat build from @Not So Clever Hound, and he is really great.

Then I had the idea to go with a Bear instead the Cat, to do a more tanky build, but until I got WoD the duration of the shift is too short, and then it’s a bit pointless to lose the cat speed buff , since I can just cast Spirit Shield and have high AR anyway.

And if I go with a Shifter? It wouldn’t be a good combination with Wizard because I can’t cast while shifted. If I use the wizards buffs before shift I think it will be a waste of the other spells.

Shifter + Rogue? Won’t be able to extend the shift, but I can pass almost entire fight using all shift forms, and have the good damage abilities from rogue

Shifter + Barbarian? Able to heal the frenzy’s self damage and good damage from barbarian too

Shifter + Paladin? I think the Goldpact buff with the shifter forms and zero recovery would be a great tank, and with all the paladin defense bonus would be a win/win I guess. Don’t know about a solo run with this anyway.

 

Please, give me your thoughts about this, and if anyother class have better synergy . Thanks 

[dgray62]

Shifter is great multi-ed with a martial class. Shifter-rogue is very good. You might consider shifter-trickster for better defences, or shifter-streetfighter for better offense. The former option seems to be pretty popular; a lot has been written on it online. As for shifter/barbarian, Jayd wrote a nice build for that. He recommends shifter/furyshaper, but shifter/berserker is viable too, as is discussed on that thread. The nice druid HoT spells, cast before shifting, can help keep you alive. Shifter/paladin would also be nice for better defences and an even higher AR. If you go this route, you might consider going with Bleak Walker for multiple lashes, or steel garrote, for even better healing, if you don't mind the "evil" dialogue options. You might consider shifter/forbidden fist monk as well.

[Manu22]

Played some hours with a shifter/monk and a shifter/Wizard, but it wasn’t like I expected.

I like the Druid offensive spells, and with the shifter I am too much melee oriented.

And I really miss the weapon and armor while shifted, I think it’s a fun part of the gane you find a good weapon that combines with your build.

[dgray62]

Yes, I wouldn't recommend a shifter/caster MC. Given the inability to cast spells while shifted, the martial MCs are best, since you can use their passives and abilities while shifted. As for spells, when I play shifter, I usually cast a HoT spell and a few DoT spells, like Relecntless Storm, Plague of Insects and Infestation of Maggots, and then shift. The nice thing about the Tempest MC is that when your DoT spells kill a target, Bloodlust and Bloodthirst boost your attack speed. As for missing out on nice weapons and armor, I share your regret. But the animal claw attacks are fast and powerful, and the spiritshift armor is great, with no recovery. So it's not a bad tradeoff.

[Boeroer]

You can use Shifter for the collection of bonus spells and just skip shifting. There's no disadvantage - like an Animist who wouldn't shift. 

Shifter gets most decay spells as bonus - so if one wants to play a decay-based caster type shifter is a good pick even though you wouldn't do anything with Spiritshift (you still could though - for example once you have cast all your spells and the fight is still going on).

[Manu22]

Well, I insisted and played a bit more with Shifter/Bloodmage. It seems an odd combination, but when the pieces are put together, he is being a blast.

I am starting fights with Nature’s Mark. Then I am using Large Shield while I buff (Spirit Shield, Fleet Feet, Vital Essence) and the enemies come closer. Then I cast Touch of Rot/Chillfog/Combusting Wounds, and finally shift. I stil can use the Druid healing spells, or if is an emergency I cancel/change form.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Manu22

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Manu22 said:

Well, I insisted and played a bit more with Shifter/Bloodmage. It seems an odd combination, but when the pieces are put together, he is being a blast.

I am starting fights with Nature’s Mark. Then I am using Large Shield while I buff (Spirit Shield, Fleet Feet, Vital Essence) and the enemies come closer. Then I cast Touch of Rot/Chillfog/Combusting Wounds, and finally shift. I stil can use the Druid healing spells, or if is an emergency I cancel/change form.

 

Shifter is better either used as a caster (no downside at doing so) or MC with a martial class.

Plot Twist : Wizards are a martial class.

[Boeroer]

What I don't like about a martial Druid/Wizard (althoug it works) is the lack of any martial attack abilities besides Taste of the Hunt (which is awesome but only 2 per encounter max and doesn't even work with Shifter). Same with all combos that basically work well as a martial build but have no attack abilities.

What I like most about martial Wizards in general is that you have a Phantom. I use that so much it's like an obsession.

As Druid/Wizard your Phantom gets claws and armor when you summon it while shifted (doesn't work as shifter obviously). It will not look like it (both items don't actually have a model but are invisible. Your spiritshift form model is all that is needed for display. But your phantom won't have that model so its items will be non-visible) but will attack with claws/tusks etc. and have natural armor. You can check the combat log.
Sadly stuff like Wildstrike or Boar DoT isn't attached to the claws/tusks themselves, so the Phantom won't have that. But for good AR the bear armor is great with 0 recovery - and for offense the cat claws are great because they have 1 sec less recovery but the same dmg as the others. Also it's kind of fun to see a naked Phantom be surprisingly sturdy and do okay damage with bare hand slaps.

As a Druid/Wizard you can even get permanent claws as equippable items (looks like you use your fists since invisibe but with other animation iirc) : you go unarmed and then shift, then you cast Concelhaut's Draining Touch and then wait till combat ends. You will end up with a permanent claw or tusk or antler (or whatever your form is) in your main hand. You can use that like any other weapon. In case of Cat claws it's a good weapon, the others are okayish imo.

Of course that's a glitch. But maybe somebody gets any fun ideas from this.  

Edited August 10, 2021 by Boeroer

[Manu22]

40 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Plot Twist : Wizards are a martial class.

Indeed, this is a great surprise.

24 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

What I like most about martial Wizards in general is that you have a Phantom. I use that so much it's like an obsession.

Things that we know @Boeroer loves:

Willbreaker

Phantom

Willbreaker+Phantom

 

 

[Elric Galad]

54 minutes ago, Manu22 said:

Indeed, this is a great surprise.

Things that we know @Boeroer loves:

Willbreaker

Phantom

Willbreaker+Phantom

 

 

And also :

Citzal Spirit Lance

Phantom

Combusting Wounds

Citzal Spirit Lance + Phantom + Combusting Wounds

Edited August 10, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Manu22 said:

Indeed, this is a great surprise.

Things that we know @Boeroer loves:

Willbreaker

Phantom

Willbreaker+Phantom

 

 

Actually I don't use Willbreaker on the Phantom because it can't use modals.

Draining Touch on the other hand... I mean the main hand...

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

And also :

Citzal Spirit Lance

Phantom

Combusting Wounds

Citzal Spirit Lance + Phantom + Combusting Wounds

I would add also:

• All things Geomancer (again... the Phantom)
• Troubadour/Psion to cast Killer Froze Stiff + Mind Wave ad nauseam
• Furyshaper wards, in particular the Blood one, with an axe and bleeding cuts
• Naked SC Wizard Slayer 
• Nomad Brigandine + disengagement shenanigans (WotEP/Tuotilo)

Now what Boeroer doesn't like:

• Scrolls that copy class-defining abilities (he'd rather have them do unique effects)
• Using other consumables
• Playing an Assassin in a party
• Grinding Megabosses

[Manu22]

Some more questions : 

If I cast Nature’s Terror, and then shift, the spell continues or is canceled?

An Assassin/Shifter can shift from stealth? I mean in a solo try.

Also talking about solo, if I want to try a monk, is the Helwalker too squishy? Even if combined with Druid HoTs and animal form?

[Not So Clever Hound]

43 minutes ago, Manu22 said:

If I cast Nature’s Terror, and then shift, the spell continues or is canceled?

An Assassin/Shifter can shift from stealth? I mean in a solo try.

Also talking about solo, if I want to try a monk, is the Helwalker too squishy? Even if combined with Druid HoTs and animal form?

My 2 cents, in order  

Yes, Nature Terror's duration as well as any of your storm spells will continue, any spell with a duration that you will have cast before shifting too. But you won't be able to cast new things in spiritshift form.

Assassin/shifter can shift from invisibility but once in combat (not from Stealth out of combat).

Helwalker/Druid solo... it depends on the difficulty setting you want to play at and how much you want to micromanage Wounds depending on your opposition/health situation (e.g. clearing them with spamming Thundering Blows instacast). The good news is that your MIG from Wounds will also benefit your healing. As Druid/Monk you don't have strong defenses buffs but you have Relentless Storm to stunlock close enemies... All in all, on PotD/Upscaled my opinion is that it will be too squishy. If you want to multi to Monk, maybe FF could be better as a shifter? The FF special ability will prolong negative effects on the enemy, and shifter naturally has a lot of nasty DoTs to cast. Then when you feel like it you can shift. EDIT: it might also increase the duration of the Boar attack DoT but I can't remember this for the life of me.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Manu22]

My problem with FF monks is that I always put lots of points in RES to lower the curse duration, and then I have to lower another atributes. In some cases I can do a balanced build, but in this case that Druids needs all atributes I don’t know how to spread them

[Faraleth]

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

All in all, on PotD/Upscaled my opinion is that it will be too squishy.

yeah, I had a shifter+helwalker melee, and it was definitely VERY squishy, and after both bear and boar form expired, it was just a meatbag on the ground . and this was not solo, so I had Edér+either Pallegina or Konstanten stand next to me. but worth mentioning, that the only time I ran out of forms were on megabosses and insane long fights, like SSS or FS fights.

[Not So Clever Hound]

26 minutes ago, Manu22 said:

My problem with FF monks is that I always put lots of points in RES to lower the curse duration, and then I have to lower another atributes. In some cases I can do a balanced build, but in this case that Druids needs all atributes I don’t know how to spread them

Yeah, that's fair. Frankly, I don't think Monk is the best synergy for a Shifter anyway, especially solo.

Have you considered Shifter/Trickster BTW? I remember having read posts about people being quite happy with that combination. Soloing higher difficulties will still be an issue due to the lack of renewable resources. But as a Rogue, you can at least play guerilla warfare and reset fights with Smoke Veil (which can fit well with a feral shadow druid kind of shifter that stalks his preys and pick them one by one).

Edited August 10, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Manu22]

True, rogue it’s a good combination. And with all the dots and afflictions, it will be very close to World of Warcraft Feral Druid.

Last question (for now): What happens if I vanish while the dots are still actives? 

[Not So Clever Hound]

3 hours ago, Manu22 said:

What happens if I vanish while the dots are still actives? 

That is a good question and a somewhat tricky one because what breaks or not invisibility is anything if consistent and easy to understand . For simplification, let's assume that you'll use Smoke Veil and not Shadowing Beyond as the latter will break with any damage regardless. EDIT: see Boeroer's post below.

For sure, Rogue DoTs won't break Smoke Veil invisibility (e.g Gouging Strike). One application/attack roll then the DoT goes on without interference.

For sure, pulsing spells will break invis (e.g. storms, wicked briars, venom bloom). Each pulse is an attack roll, so it will interfere with invis.

Where I'm a bit funky is whether Insect Swarm/Plague of Insect for instance will break Smoke Veil invis or not [IT DOESN'T]. I think I saw its DoT break Smoke Veil invisibility on an Assassin I was playing, but I tried the scroll version of the spell, not the spell itself. In theory its a legit DoT, not a pulsing effect so it should not break. But theory doesn't help much with Smoke Veil . I'll see if I can test later.

EDIT: I tested just now with a Shifter/Assassin: Insect Swarm and PoI DoTs don't break Smoke Veil.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

• Troubadour/Psion to cast Killer Froze Stiff + Mind Wave ad nauseam

Ks ks ks, it's obviously Soul Shock, not Mind Wave. Also you guys forgot Mortar Monk™ - I mean seriously...  

[Boeroer]

A good Shifter combo is Goldpact/Shifter imo.

Bear armor (+2) + Paladin AR passives (+2) + Exalted Endurance (+1) and the "refilling" Gilded Enmity (+4 - doesn't stack with Exalted Endurance though) make him very sturdy. On top you can use Lay on Hands whenever you want. On top can come stuff like Blunting Belt etc.
I would choose Bear form at the start of the fight because that's usually the part where you get attacked the most.

Eternal Devotion stacks with Wildstrike and Inspired Beacon adds an additive dmg bonus that works for everything (even if it's rel. short). Eternal Devotion even works with all direct dmg/pulsing spells like Nature's Terror and Sacred Immolation.

Stack Nature's Terror + Sacred Immolation (cast some proper healing spell like Moonwell or Nature's  first though) and go to town. Overall damage is actually pretty good. Use Lay on Hands if you must to prevent KO by immolation. 

Taste of the Hunt would be superawesome for this build, but alas...
 

[Boeroer]

57 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

EDIT: I tested just now with a Shifter/Assassin: Insect Swarm and PoI DoTs don't break Smoke Veil.

The only invisibility effects that break on DoT nowadays are Shadowing Beyond from the Priest of Skaen (not the Rogue one) and Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure. Even the potion works with DoTs. I'm not 100% sure about Slippers of the Assassin but iirc that invisibility also doesn't break on DoT. 

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

A good Shifter combo is Goldpact/Shifter imo.

 Paladin AR passives (+2) 
 

Mmm, Inspired defense is (sort of conditional) +1 and Stoic Steel is (also conditional) +3 (stacks up to 3 times). That's +4AR. So total 10+4+4+1/+4 = 19/22 AR on endgame, only minus 2 for other shapeshifts.

[Boeroer]

Yes, I kinda assumed 2 as average value.

All that with 0 recovery malus from armor which is often overlooked when talking about dmg output.  

 

[Not So Clever Hound]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Ks ks ks, it's obviously Soul Shock, not Mind Wave. Also you guys forgot Mortar Monk™ - I mean seriously...  

... and stacking 2 items with charges in your inventory to reset the charges, and hunting for items to export to other characters with an Assassin/Bleak Walker sniper with Ring of Focused Flames and Dragon's Dowry... and Sure Handed Ila on a Distracted Firearm-wielding Streetfighter... and Spearcaster with Arcane Archer too.

In fact, you like a lot of things in this game. And we like that you like those things, because then we can all talk about them.