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The all things Political Topic - When the sun Rises, the shadows must retreat Fleeing in fear from the Fires of dawn


Gorth

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7 hours ago, Gorth said:

Ask the Kurds in northern Syria for elaboration on the joke

Okay I get it now, its not really a joke because the Kurds were expecting something that the US cannot grant or give them

The Kurds want part of Turkey as their own independent state, Turkey will never agree to that so I am not sure why an unrealistic expectation was set and how anyone thinks the US can assist ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Generally one should not trust a superpower.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Generally one should not trust a superpower.

Or power period. About all you can (mostly) trust is shared interests.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Okay I get it now, its not really a joke because the Kurds were expecting something that the US cannot grant or give them

The Kurds want part of Turkey as their own independent state, Turkey will never agree to that so I am not sure why an unrealistic expectation was set and how anyone thinks the US can assist ?

No, the Kurds wanted north part of Iraq as an autonomous Kurdish state. Turkey Would not tolerate that because of the number of ethnic Kurds in eastern turkey freedom they were afraid down the road and autonomous Curtis homeland with annex part of turkey. Maybe it would have. Maybe not. But the one thing the US could have done is not allowed the Kurds in Syria to be killed by  the Turks after pulling out. And we didn’t. 
 

Involving ourselves in Syria was a mistake. Yes it was a humanitarian crisis. Yes people are being killed and brutalized by the thousands. There’s nothing we can do about it.

Edited by Guard Dog

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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America once won its wars. Now it just leaves them - Asia Times

The American public just doesn't seem to want war anymore, and seem far more obsessed with domestic cultural issues than anything.  The 1960's episode has really manifested itself into U.S. culture and I don't see it going away.

I do not see social conservatives winning out in the U.S.

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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6 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

America once won its wars. Now it just leaves them - Asia Times

The American public just doesn't seem to want war anymore, and seem far more obsessed with domestic cultural issues than anything.  The 1960's episode has really manifested itself into U.S. culture and I don't see it going away.

I do not see social conservatives winning out in the U.S.

What a historically dumb article.

I mean that both ways.

edit: Let me clarify. The article is a shallow tackling of a huge subject. I do take solace in the fact that the headline wasn't actually written by the Vanderbilt History Professor, but I still think it was a strange half-hearted opinion piece that doesn't really work.

Edited by Hurlsnot
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1 hour ago, rjshae said:

Unless you're a major power, outlasting the US is often the only viable strategy remaining.

Or just wait until the U.S. tears itself apart on idiotic cultural shenanigans.  Should be the winning strategy for everyone tired of the U.S. war machine.

Don't provoke the beast, just sit back, lay low, and wait until they start killing each other.  Rainbow LGBT and minority Freedom and Liberation Front vs. John Deere Good ol' Boy Buckskin slackjaws (O.K., I'm sure the battle lines will be a bit more nuanced  and complex than that but I can't help but make some comedic gestures about the Western obsession with identity lol).

Edited by ComradeYellow

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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1 hour ago, ComradeYellow said:

Or just wait until the U.S. tears itself apart on idiotic cultural shenanigans.  Should be the winning strategy for everyone tired of the U.S. war machine.

 

the strategy didn't work out so well for the soviets, eh?

you gotta point the goof gas gun the other way, boris.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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40 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

the strategy didn't work out so well for the soviets, eh?

you gotta point the goof gas gun the other way, boris.

There was no chance of Civil War in the U.S. during the Cold War, as WW2 was still fresh in the minds of the public and the country was both rich and unified*.  U.S. had the greatest economy and a functioning democracy in those days, as opposed to the U.S.S.R. which was both economically and politically ineffective**.

Things just seem...different now.  U.S. economy and political situation appears to be showing signs of decay and people are quite riddled with anxiety and uncertainty about the future

*The Consciousness Revolution of the 1960's was indeed a time of turmoil for the U.S., but the political and business class at that time was composed of the elder generations who kept the country ironclad together.  The kids at that time are now elders and in charge and now we have two camps:  One that is trying to perpetuate the gains of the 60's into the country for good and the other trying to roll it back into some kind of white supremacist pastime before that.  Hopefully the former wins, as it would fundamentally change U.S. policy for good and we would be left with a situation in which all sides on the geopolitical landscape would win.

**Largely thanks to Kruschev and his complete cutoff of the Stalin years into Soviet History.  An Ancient once said "The Best way to destroy  a country is to dismantle its history".  Deng Xiaoping may not have been all in with Mao Zedong policies, for good reason, but he he still honored Mao for what achievements he did accomplish and enshrined him in the CCP history as one of the greats.

Edited by ComradeYellow

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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19 minutes ago, ComradeYellow said:

There was no chance of Civil War in the U.S. during the Cold War

*chuckle*

the whole unstoppable october revolution bs were predicated on just such a belief.

regardless, you don't recognize you is just parroting the soviet propaganda o' the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. race riots, gas crisis, inflation, not to mention korea, vietnam and nicaragua. is always something. is the next crisis in the US will be the deciding blow.

no widespread hunger in the us. poverty, while far too high, is hardly at civil war inducing levels. sure, americans appear more willing than ever to give up on the democratic experiment than at any time since the early 1900s, but if you think that is good news for the folks in pottsylvania, you ain't learned much from your clear limited reading o' history. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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11 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

No, the Kurds wanted north part of Iraq as an autonomous Kurdish state. Turkey Would not tolerate that because of the number of ethnic Kurds in eastern turkey freedom they were afraid down the road and autonomous Curtis homeland with annex part of turkey. Maybe it would have. Maybe not. But the one thing the US could have done is not allowed the Kurds in Syria to be killed by  the Turks after pulling out. And we didn’t. 
 

Involving ourselves in Syria was a mistake. Yes it was a humanitarian crisis. Yes people are being killed and brutalized by the thousands. There’s nothing we can do about it.

https://www.cfr.org/timeline/kurds-quest-independence

Its more complicated than the Kurds just wanting an autonomous zone in Syria, they wanted an independent state in Iraq and Turkey as well 

But the point being the US doesn't control the borders of any country outside its own territory so an unrealistic expectation was set . The US cant grant any group independence unilaterally so you need to raise this with the governments of Iraq, Syria and Turkey 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Its more complicated than the Kurds just wanting an autonomous zone in Syria, they wanted an independent state in Iraq and Turkey as well

Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey. The Kurds are today one the largest "stateless nations" in the world numbering around 30 million people. Subjected to discrimination and persecution in the four nations states the Kurdish lands straddle. England and France either didn't know what they were doing or didn't care when they carved up the middle east after WWI.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

no widespread hunger in the us. poverty, while far too high, is hardly at civil war inducing levels. 

Historically, it's not poverty or hunger that starts conflicts on American soil, it's the power of an idea.  The idea that the U.S. should be a sovereign Independent nation away from Tyrant King George, the idea that their slaves might be taken away, ect.

The idea that the country could take a more left wing and transitional turn in the near future seems to causing Johnny AR-15 a quite a significant stir lately.  Even if its not in reality an earth shattering or Stalin-esque type of turn, and it's well within the confines of teh Constitution/based on American principles, the fear alone is all it would take to trigger them into action.  Americans are dumb strange like that.

Edited by ComradeYellow

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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37 minutes ago, ComradeYellow said:

Historically, it's not poverty or hunger that starts conflicts on American soil, it's the power of an idea

and as soon as you show we are anywhere close to the fight 'bout slavery and other issues dividing north and south antebellum, then am gonna admit you got a point. can't even get folks like gd, the hardcore 2nd amendment folks and so-called libertarians, to agree that throwing protesters in unmarked vans and whisking away in the dead o' night in portland was an offense worth fighting 'bout. heck, can't get enough people concerned 'bout january 6 to even have a real investigation. is indeed a group o' extreme angry americans who want to burn it all down, at least if they don't get their way. we do indeed have insurrectionists, as we did in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. you aren't gonna have a revolution unless you get enough americans to agree situation is bad enough to start another freaking civil war. apathy is our biggest problem and you see civil war as just 'round the corner.

maybe you think the cold war only took place in the mid to late 80s? were a whole lotta post ww2 conflict o' ideology in the US. you didn't think those decades o' strife were meaningful, but now you see revolution?

HA! 

so again, if the strategy is waiting for america to implode, then gonna once again observe how you are spouting the same bs as did the soviets post ww2 w/o any self awareness o' what you are doing. not only were their strategy proven to be an obvious fail, but where are they now? 

you are not learning from history.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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38 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

There's already a great amount of debates here wether we are going to accept any refugees at all, meanwhile the foreign minister intends to keep sending 120 million USD to afghanistan, because "she's sure that the Taliban won't get that money" :huh:

I feel especially bad for all the women down there..

Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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Just heard on BBC World Radio the Taliban has entered Kabul. Also they are reporting stories of mass executions in the regional capitals. The Afghan President and most of the government have fled. 
 

All those lives lost, billions of tax dollars spent rebuilding. All for nothing. But if we left 15 years ago or 15 years from now the outcome is the same. Removing the Taliban in 2002 was necessary. They were complicit in 9-11 because they protected the perpetrators. Staying was stupid. And now stupid has led us to where it always does. Failure.

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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58 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Just heard on BBC World Radio the Taliban has entered Kabul. Also they are reporting stories of mass executions in the regional capitals. The Afghan President and most of the government have fled. 
 

All those lives lost, billions of tax dollars spent rebuilding. All for nothing. But if we left 15 years ago or 15 years from now the outcome is the same. Removing the Taliban in 2002 was necessary. They were complicit in 9-11 because they protected the perpetrators. Staying was stupid. And now stupid has led us to where it always does. Failure.

https://news.yahoo.com/afghan-president-ghani-flees-country-145644024.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

I am stupefied that the official Afghan army of 350k trained people could acquiesce to the Taliban so easily....Kabul has fallen with NO resistance 

No this is not the consequence of the USA  " betraying "  their partners. At the very least Ghani could have presented  military resistance  in some way ....he had an army and airforce FFS !!!

If after 20 years of support from a foreign country you cannot even make some stand in the interest of your own country them you need to accept the consequences of this cowardice and lack of action 

Yes its  a pity so many lives were lost in the last 20 years but at least AQ was defeated in Afghanistan  and Bin Laden was killed ....so the invasion and  the  20 years of US involvement wasnt a complete waste 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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The utter collapse of the official Afghan government failing to make any stand to the Taliban should be remembered as  one of the greatest failures of any governments security forces to do their job...its egregious and an unequivocal failure of how any government should function

This should reflect negatively on how Biden handled the understandable withdrawal of US forces....especially  how Biden handled the  withdrawal after he said "Afghanistan will be fine after the US pulls out "

But one thing in credit to his decisions is when  he said " I dont want Afghanistan to become the problem of yet another US president " ....sure he delivered on that outcome but its the way he addresed it that historians will remember....

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Thread title is sort of funny given current situation in Afghanistan

  • Haha 1

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Joe Biden is a feckless idiot. And he has surrounded himself by more of the like. And since the collapse of Afghanistan was absolutely inevitable because we cannot and will not stay there forever this really is not his fault. But it happened on his watch and he will get blamed and I could not care less he’s unfairly judged. F—k him.
 

The Executive governance of the United States has gone from a corrupted would be autocrat to a doddering and feckless idiot. But we get the government we deserve. I have to say cutting the cord and going completely off grid sounds more appealing with every day. 

Edited by Guard Dog
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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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42 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Thread title is sort of funny given current situation in Afghanistan

Thats seriously terrible.....whats wrong with you, especially when  its true 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Joe Biden is a feckless idiot. And he has surrounded himself by more of the like. And since the collapse of Afghanistan was absolutely inevitable because we cannot and will not stay there forever this really is not his fault. But it happened on his watch and he will get blamed and I could not care less he’s unfairly judged. F—k him.
 

The Executive governance of the United States has gone from a corrupted would be autocrat to a doddering and feckless idiot. But we get the government we deserve. I have to say cutting the cord and going completely off grid sounds more appealing with every day. 

GD I know you are well versed at the " Summon Gromnir " spell but before you invoke this incantation are you ready for the outcome?

Gromnir will appear in the smoke...and he  wont be happy :teehee:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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