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The all things Political Topic - For who in this dark, dream-haunted Land dares Resist the righteous flame of Wrath And Doom themselves to despair and death?


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12 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Sorry @BruceVC, I very strictly stay away from any and all political discussions anywhere online, and especially so on highly charged topics. It is a very sad reality today that far too many people are incapable of or outright do not want to have civil discourse with anyone who even mildly disagrees with them.

Also, what email?

Sorry I meant post, not email :lol:

I understand your view on not debating certain topics, their are also some topics I dont debate 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

ISIS has killed more Muslims in the ME than any other group

ISIS has killed more muslims than any other group, via terrorism. Of western aligned nations the US definitely, and Saudi probably (via Yemen) have killed more muslims under 'normal' circumstances (Syria too, but it isn't western aligned).

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So how can any member of the US congress who is suppose to represent the citizens of the US question 9/11 or compare the US army to the brutal and barbaric Taliban

Pretty easily, really, if the Australian SAS is any gauge. The Australian government initially swore blind it was all a media beat up by the unpatriotic and arrested ABC journalists for reporting it then we got stuff like:

"we have 7 prisoners" "sorry cobber, only room for 6 on the heli" *bang* "we have 6 prisoners..." or them killing 12 civilians to cover up murdering one civilian. If anyone thinks that was a uniquely Australian problem, well, they're wrong (New Zealand's minute Afghan contingent very likely killed civilians too, but not judicially provable because they weren't moronic enough to keep explicit photos; they and the commanders just systematically lied for some random reason totally unrelated to war crimes). Easy to have very low civilian death totals when you just call everyone you kill an enemy combatant and no politician wants to question that.

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6 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Sorry @BruceVC, I very strictly stay away from any and all political discussions anywhere online, and especially so on highly charged topics. It is a very sad reality today that far too many people are incapable of or outright do not want to have civil discourse with anyone who even mildly disagrees with them.

Also, what email?

China will overtake the U.S. economy in a few years and the Republican Party will collapse or become marginalized in a few years.

I say I say, come at me bros 😛

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“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

ISIS has killed more muslims than any other group, via terrorism. Of western aligned nations the US definitely, and Saudi probably (via Yemen) have killed more muslims under 'normal' circumstances (Syria too, but it isn't western aligned).

 

Good catch Zora and I did frame my point incorrectly. In fact what I wanted to say was " ISIS has killed more Muslims than they have killed Christians, Jews , "Westerners " and other ethnic and  religious  groups in the  ME" . I can see how my post could easily be misconstrued and I appreciate the chance to correct it 

So when you find anyone but particularly a Muslim, like Omar, feeding false narratives or  conspiracy theories about terrorist groups like ISIS, The Taliban or AQ what they must realize is these groups kill more Muslims than Westerners. So you would end up ostensibly defending the likes of ISIS when you peddle conspiracy theories 

For example believing and repeating " ISIS was created by the CIA to destroy the ME " and similar things. And we also experienced numerous Trump linked conspiracy theories like " ISIS is going to invade the USA through Mexico " 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/isis-myths-debunked_n_5875050

I have heard this in SA occasionally even now when around certain global developments and terrorist attacks with some people phoning in on talk shows and denying ISIS is real and claiming its an American plot to control oil supply in the ME 

Yes its based on complete misinformation and lack of interest in confirming what you say in public is even remotely true but that doesnt make it less irritating and frustrating because it spreads misinformation 

So with Omar I am surprised she has such a lack of real interest in Islamic extremism and its insidious influence in parts of the world. She originally comes from Somalia and was born in 1982 but left in 1995 to immigrate to the USA, I would have assumed she would know about Al-Shabaab and how it  has devastated Somalia. And like Boko Haram they aligned themselves ideology with ISIS

But it seems its easier to  compare the US  military to Islamic extremist groups like ISIS than to call them out despite all the real carnage they have created in Somalia, and other African countries,  and still do

 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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22 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

For example believing and repeating " ISIS was created by the CIA to destroy the ME " and similar things.

You could argue, that ISIS wasn't created by the CIA as much as the Bush administration and that only inadvertently due to the Iraq war and no plans for what to do after Saddam was removed. The sectarian violence that followed in the power vacuum led to the creation of ISIS and all it's spin offs from Africa to the Philippines. Killing heretic Shia Muslims is their priority. Killing heathen westerners wherever they find them is a bonus.

 

Edit: Since the spin off and splinter groups have run all out of heretics to kill, they just make heathens their priority instead. Nothing like rampant poverty and inequality to keep the fire burning all over the world.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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3 minutes ago, Gorth said:

You could argue, that ISIS wasn't created by the CIA as much as the Bush administration and that only inadvertently due to the Iraq war and no plans for what to do after Saddam was removed. The sectarian violence that followed in the power vacuum led to the creation of ISIS and all it's spin offs from Africa to the Philippines. Killing heretic Shia Muslims is their priority. Killing heathen westerners wherever they find them is a bonus.

You could argue that but its a tenuous and difficult point to make a convincing argument  around because of all the moving parts with the creation of ISIS and how to connect them so that the Bush Administration takes most responsibility 

For example the Arab spring also contributed towards the creation of ISIS with different Sunni militia groups coming together in conflicts like Syria. The Syrian conflict was a  result of the Arab Spring and not the invasion of Iraq that created that  vacuum you mentioned that I agree definitely contributed towards ISIS

But the more important point  now in the ME is that no one argues about its creation or debates these things. ISIS is the most hated group and everyone is against them....all countries in the ME  that could contribute resources to the final assault on the Caliphate in 2018 did so. It was quite an amazing development for me to see, I have never seen the countries of the ME work together like that and I was very impressed with their commitment because it was a hard and brutal series of battles. Thousands of soldiers from ME countries died in the final days of the end of the Caliphate 

The conspiracy theories become meaningless when you are dealing with the actual reality on the ground

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

For example the Arab spring also contributed towards the creation of ISIS with different Sunni militia groups coming together in conflicts like Syria. The Syrian conflict was a  result of the Arab Spring and not the invasion of Iraq that created that  vacuum you mentioned that I agree definitely contributed towards ISIS

The Arab Spring dates back to 2010, so it can't really have been a "root cause". Did it contribute to its manpower? Sure.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/timeline-the-rise-spread-and-fall-the-islamic-state

But ISIS can trace its roots back to the creation of Al Qaeda in 2004. Major supporters of AQ being first and foremost Saudi Arabia and to a lesser degree Turkey. The latter because they have a religious nutcase in the form of Erdogan who came to power in 2003

Timeline from the link:

2004-2012

2004: Abu Musab al Zarqawi establishes al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI).

June 7, 2006: Zarqawi is killed in a U.S. strike. Abu Ayyub al Masri takes his place.

Oct. 15, 2006: al Masri announces the establishment of the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI), with Abu Omar al Baghdadi as its leader.

2007: Following the surge of U.S. troops in Iraq, ISI is driven from Baghdad into Diyala, Salahideen, and Mosul. The organization retains only a fraction of its leaders, cells, and capabilities, which are concentrated in Mosul.

2008: ISI membership is strongly diminished. By early 2008, 2,400 ISI members had been killed and 8,800 were captured, out of a previous membership of 15,000. The flow of foreign fighters into Iraq decreases from 120 per month to five or six per month by 2009.

2009: Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki targets Sunni leaders, increasing sectarian tensions. Support for ISI begins to increase in Sunni tribal areas, and ISI claims responsibility for suicide attacks that killed hundreds in Baghdad.

April 2010: Abu Bakr al Baghdadi becomes the leader of ISI after a joint U.S.-Iraqi operations kills Abu Omar al Baghdadi and Abu Ayyub al Masri.

July 2011: Abu Bakr al Baghdadi sends operatives to Syria. One of them, Abu Muhammad al Julani, becomes the leader of the Nusra Front in January 2012.

July 2012-July 2013: ISI launches its “Breaking the Walls” campaign. It carries out 24 bombings and eight prison breaks, freeing jihadists who had participated in AQI attacks in 2006 and 2007.

2013

March 4: Raqqa falls to the Syrian opposition, and secular opposition groups, the Nusra Front, and ISI are all operating in Raqqa. ISI begins moving military assets to consolidate control and break into new battle fronts in Syria.

April 11: Baghdadi moves from Iraq to Syria, and claims that the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI) merged with the Nusra Front in Syria to become “The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.” But Julani rejects the alliance and declares allegiance to al Qaeda.

July 21: ISIS launches the “Soldier’s Harvest” campaign to diminish Iraqi security forces and capture territory.

August: ISIS begins attacking rebel groups including Liwa al Tawhid, Ahrar al Sham, and the Nusra Front in Raqqa and Aleppo.

Dec. 30: ISIS militants in Iraq take control of Fallujah and parts of Ramadi.

 

So yes, if looking entirely at its current name, ISIS has existed since 2013, but I still believe it's foundations were laid with the formation of Al Qaeda (2004) and later ISI in 2006 (Islamic State in Iraq), in the mess that was Iraq.

One of those things we may just have to agree to disagree on, I do hold the Bush administration entirely responsible for its existence ;)

 

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6 minutes ago, Gorth said:

The Arab Spring dates back to 2010, so it can't really have been a "root cause". Did it contribute to its manpower? Sure.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/timeline-the-rise-spread-and-fall-the-islamic-state

But ISIS can trace its roots back to the creation of Al Qaeda in 2004. Major supporters of AQ being first and foremost Saudi Arabia and to a lesser degree Turkey. The latter because they have a religious nutcase in the form of Erdogan who came to power in 2003

Timeline from the link:

2004-2012

2004: Abu Musab al Zarqawi establishes al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI).

June 7, 2006: Zarqawi is killed in a U.S. strike. Abu Ayyub al Masri takes his place.

Oct. 15, 2006: al Masri announces the establishment of the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI), with Abu Omar al Baghdadi as its leader.

2007: Following the surge of U.S. troops in Iraq, ISI is driven from Baghdad into Diyala, Salahideen, and Mosul. The organization retains only a fraction of its leaders, cells, and capabilities, which are concentrated in Mosul.

2008: ISI membership is strongly diminished. By early 2008, 2,400 ISI members had been killed and 8,800 were captured, out of a previous membership of 15,000. The flow of foreign fighters into Iraq decreases from 120 per month to five or six per month by 2009.

2009: Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki targets Sunni leaders, increasing sectarian tensions. Support for ISI begins to increase in Sunni tribal areas, and ISI claims responsibility for suicide attacks that killed hundreds in Baghdad.

April 2010: Abu Bakr al Baghdadi becomes the leader of ISI after a joint U.S.-Iraqi operations kills Abu Omar al Baghdadi and Abu Ayyub al Masri.

July 2011: Abu Bakr al Baghdadi sends operatives to Syria. One of them, Abu Muhammad al Julani, becomes the leader of the Nusra Front in January 2012.

July 2012-July 2013: ISI launches its “Breaking the Walls” campaign. It carries out 24 bombings and eight prison breaks, freeing jihadists who had participated in AQI attacks in 2006 and 2007.

2013

March 4: Raqqa falls to the Syrian opposition, and secular opposition groups, the Nusra Front, and ISI are all operating in Raqqa. ISI begins moving military assets to consolidate control and break into new battle fronts in Syria.

April 11: Baghdadi moves from Iraq to Syria, and claims that the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI) merged with the Nusra Front in Syria to become “The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.” But Julani rejects the alliance and declares allegiance to al Qaeda.

July 21: ISIS launches the “Soldier’s Harvest” campaign to diminish Iraqi security forces and capture territory.

August: ISIS begins attacking rebel groups including Liwa al Tawhid, Ahrar al Sham, and the Nusra Front in Raqqa and Aleppo.

Dec. 30: ISIS militants in Iraq take control of Fallujah and parts of Ramadi.

 

So yes, if looking entirely at its current name, ISIS has existed since 2013, but I still believe it's foundations were laid with the formation of Al Qaeda (2004) and later ISI in 2006 (Islamic State in Iraq), in the mess that was Iraq.

One of those things we may just have to agree to disagree on, I do hold the Bush administration entirely responsible for its existence ;)

 

You make some irrefutable  and accurate historical points, but we cant disentangle the Syrian conflict and  the Iraq Invasion and its direct influence on ISIS and your timelines highlights that

For example the Al-Nusra Front was created in the inferno of the Syrian conflict and you can see the part they played in ISIS if you reference your timeline 

So yes its one of those agree to disagree that the US invasion of Iraq  was the reason ISIS was created, it contributed. But it wasnt the only factor or conflict 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Gorth said:

2013

 

March 4: Raqqa falls to the Syrian opposition, and secular opposition groups, the Nusra Front, and ISI are all operating in Raqqa. ISI begins moving military assets to consolidate control and break into new battle fronts in Syria.

That's kind of inaccurate, since ISI and Al Nusra never operated together- Al Nusra was literally ISI's wing in Syria so if you were ISI in Syria you were by definition JaN; Jabhat al Nusra == the Support Front (of ISI to Syria). I know why it's put like that in the timeline since they split relatively soon after, but at that time there was literally no difference.

(The conspiracy theory with respect to CIA == ISIS is a classic 'interesting series of facts' conspiracy theory. All three ISI(S) leaders were captured by the US at various points and released- both Baghdadis and the current leader- indeed most of ISIS' leadership full stop was at some point in US custody and released. ISI(S)'s brand of Islam was closest to that of Saudi Arabia and much of its financial support came from there, and KSA is a noted US ally. Capture and release is an excellent way to recruit assets and get them into an organisation. Of course, that interesting series of facts doesn't really mean much at all, practically, like most interesting series of facts.

The big regional irony is having the US claim that Assad deliberately 'poisoned' the moderate rebels in Syria by releasing radicals like Zahran Alloush and his brother from its jails, when the US released all three ISIS leaders- and the Alloush's release was demanded by Saudi Arabia, who went on to provide them with massive support)

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30 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

That's kind of inaccurate, since ISI and Al Nusra never operated together- Al Nusra was literally ISI's wing in Syria so if you were ISI in Syria you were by definition JaN; Jabhat al Nusra == the Support Front (of ISI to Syria). I know why it's put like that in the timeline since they split relatively soon after, but at that time there was literally no difference.

(The conspiracy theory with respect to CIA == ISIS is a classic 'interesting series of facts' conspiracy theory. All three ISI(S) leaders were captured by the US at various points and released- both Baghdadis and the current leader- indeed most of ISIS' leadership full stop was at some point in US custody and released. ISI(S)'s brand of Islam was closest to that of Saudi Arabia and much of its financial support came from there, and KSA is a noted US ally. Capture and release is an excellent way to recruit assets and get them into an organisation. Of course, that interesting series of facts doesn't really mean much at all, practically, like most interesting series of facts.

The big regional irony is having the US claim that Assad deliberately 'poisoned' the moderate rebels in Syria by releasing radicals like Zahran Alloush and his brother from its jails, when the US released all three ISIS leaders- and the Alloush's release was demanded by Saudi Arabia, who went on to provide them with massive support)

Interesting post, thanks for clarifying and sharing 8)

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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4 hours ago, Sarex said:

 

My view on this type of selective and revisionist history is well known. Anyone comparing the US to groups like the Taliban, or singing the praises of the Soviet Union, clearly havent bothered to research or understand what the Taliban represent and what they have done within Afghanistan so its not worth getting into a debate with people with such little knowledge of the subject they want to discuss 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Here’s a great message to give kids a graduation

I am almost 50 years old now. I have fewer days before me than behind me. Sometimes I think that’s a good thing. Not sure I’d want to live in the world these people imagine they are building 

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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53 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Here’s a great message to give kids a graduation

I am almost 50 years old now. I have fewer days before me than behind me. Sometimes I think that’s a good thing. Not sure I’d want to live in the world these people imagine they are building 

The comments from that women  were appalling and she made several inaccurate statements which is normal for this type of populism ....imagine sitting next to her at a wedding, I dont think their would be one thing I would agree with her  on. If she was hot I could find some common  ground and agree with  some of her ideological views...but  I doubt she would date an infidel :teehee:

I wonder what she meant by " and encouraged them to remember their “jihad” and reject the concepts of objectivity and neutrality " ?

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Last day of Netanyahu - may it last. The incoming unity government is a fragile alliance composed of 8 different left, right, and center parties that have literally the bare minimum amount of votes to pass (61 of 120). *That* probably won't last, but hopefully it doesn't bring back Netanyahu when it does collapse.

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Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

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Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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4 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

..that have literally the bare minimum amount of votes to pass (61 of 120).

Ended up being 60-59, though the Joint List would have voted for the new government if needed so practically there was more margin to spare.

I think it would have to collapse pretty quickly to get Netanyahu back. Apart from the build up of legal troubles that he will have difficulty deferring now he's also accumulated a lot of enemies, not all of them outside the Likud bloc, and his style has been to use his position to play them off against each other and placate those he has to. That's become a lot more difficult now he has less favours to grant.

Edited by Zoraptor
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According to Framatome the Chinese have a leaking nuclear reactor

It's a little disconcerting to think the same people that make those cheap (describing quality) trashy tools they peddle at Harbor Freight are also running nuclear reactors and bio (weapon?) research labs. 

Of course the CCP will no doubt insist the fission gas being released came from the USA (probably New Jersey) and all their reactors are fine. And some folks will even believe it. 

Edited by Guard Dog

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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Jersey being a toxic wasteland isn't that hard to believe though.

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4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

According to Framatome the Chinese have a leaking nuclear reactor

It's a little disconcerting to think the same people that make those cheap (describing quality) trashy tools they peddle at Harbor Freight are also running nuclear reactors and bio (weapon?) research labs. 

Of course the CCP will no doubt insist the fission gas being released came from the USA (probably New Jersey) and all their reactors are fine. And some folks will even believe it. 

They can always blow themselves up out of existence i guess... 

https://www.zerohedge.com/energy/chinese-nuclear-plant-vents-gasses-after-imminent-radiological-threat-reported

 

Seems it is being controlled and monitored, although it was the French copartner who reported it and not the Chinese side. 

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12 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

They can always blow themselves up out of existence i guess... 

https://www.zerohedge.com/energy/chinese-nuclear-plant-vents-gasses-after-imminent-radiological-threat-reported

 

Seems it is being controlled and monitored, although it was the French copartner who reported it and not the Chinese side. 

Wait, you mean China refused to report on a dangerous situation that is embarrassing to them? Say it ain’t so.

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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Pretty sure China would fix the problem if it is in fact an issue and not Western propaganda.

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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12 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

According to Framatome the Chinese have a leaking nuclear reactor

It's a little disconcerting to think the same people that make those cheap (describing quality) trashy tools they peddle at Harbor Freight are also running nuclear reactors and bio (weapon?) research labs. 

Of course the CCP will no doubt insist the fission gas being released came from the USA (probably New Jersey) and all their reactors are fine. And some folks will even believe it. 

Well if Japan can have a nuclear meltdown, it can probably happen anywhere. At least with the older style nuclear technology.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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NATO, suffering from a decades long existential crisis seems to have found a new enemy they can agree to disagree with…

Nope, not Russia, but China

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57466210

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