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The all things Political Topic - For who in this dark, dream-haunted Land dares Resist the righteous flame of Wrath And Doom themselves to despair and death?


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2 hours ago, Sarex said:

That number is pretty fluid. Countries are retracting their recognition while some are giving it.

Do you want me to list the institutions that don't recognize it, because I think mine trump (haha) yours.

1971 provision prohibits in principle the export of weapons to non-NATO countries.

That transformation was in name only and doesn't change what it actually is, a glorified police force. It's still under the direct control of NATO and can't do anything without their say, like, for an example, cross the border in to the north of Kosovo.

That they find ways to circumvent their own laws doesn't really have any bearing on the matter.

Look harder, there is a German article on it.

I'm curious, where are you from originally?

That article don't isn't accurate about Germany's law

https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/research/armaments/transfers/transparency/national_reports/germany/Germany_03_english.pdf

Quote

The updated version of the Principles adopted by the federal Cabinet on 19 January 2000 introduced the following substantively new elements: The observance of human rights is of special importance for every export decision, regardless of the potential consignee country. Military equipment exports are therefore fundamentally not approved where there is "sufficient suspicion" of the involved military equipment's misuse for internal repression or other ongoing and systematic violations of human rights. The human rights situation in the consignee country plays an important role in connection with this question. And the Political Principles are more restrictive here than the EU Code of Conduct (more detail on this aspect below, under II.3.), which rules out export licenses only where a "clear risk" exists. 9 Following the General Section, the updated Principles, like their first version, distinguish between the group of EU, NATO, and NATO-equivalent countries (Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Switzerland) and the group of other countries (so-called third countries). For the first group of countries, licenses are to be the rule and denials the exception; for the second group, there is to be a continuation of the restrictive and reserved policy with respect to license issuance

I am originally from Finland, my family has lived here at least from 13th century when church started to keep record of Finnish people.

Edited by Elerond
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33 minutes ago, Elerond said:

That is the rigmarole they went through to circumvent the 1971 provisions that the article linked talked about. Even when you read the "law" you mentioned above and combine that with this, you get Germany breaking it's own laws.

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I am originally from Finland, my family has lived here at least from 13th century when church started to keep record of Finnish people.

Cool. You seem really passionate about Kosovo, so I was wondering what your deal was.

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2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

...

link

if it doesn't match the gd narrative, then it doesn't exist?

HA! Good Fun!

 

That was two days ago all the protests were going on. In the two days later when the police are beating the living hell out of everyone in sight and arresting everyone including foreign journalists nary a word from the “leader of the free world”. Nothing I’ve found anyway. Of course no US president in recent memory can honestly lay claim to that title.

But… they did say this

so if you’re coming from Mexico, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, you’re more than welcome. But if you’re fleeing from the workers paradise of Cuba they don’t want you. Make of that what you will. I certainly have my own opinions on the reasons.

 

Edited by Guard Dog

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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Just now, Guard Dog said:

That was two days ago all the protests were going on.

 

and two days previous to your post complaining that biden likely wanted to criticize cuba but wouldn't couldn't because of "a lot of Democrats."

dog with a bone.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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6 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

and two days previous to your post complaining that biden likely wanted to criticize cuba but wouldn't couldn't because of "a lot of Democrats."

dog with a bone.

HA! Good Fun!

Oh I’m sorry has he been criticizing the police cracking down on protest? I must’ve missed that. I certainly caught Bernie Sanders milquetoast asking the government to “refrain” from violence after the beat down was all over. Certainly not a goddamn word out of him in support of protesters. The Democrats socialist of America which count a number of democrat congressmen in their ranks released a statement that they are standing firm with “the revolution”. That’s the Cuban government in case anybody’s not too clear on what that bull**** is.

Keep in mind, Biden is not “their guy“. But he needs their cooperation. Which brings us back to my original point.

Edited by Guard Dog

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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gd: His natural inclination would be to support the demonstrators in Cuba. But he dares not do it because quite a lot of the Democrats he needs (and who already don’t like him) are quietly sympathetic to the Cuban government.

biden (two days earlier): We stand with the Cuban people and their clarion call for freedom and relief from the tragic grip of the pandemic and from the decades of repression and economic suffering to which they have been subjected by Cuba’s authoritarian regime. The Cuban people are bravely asserting fundamental and universal rights. Those rights, including the right of peaceful protest and the right to freely determine their own future, must be respected. The United States calls on the Cuban regime to hear their people and serve their needs at this vital moment rather than enriching themselves.

you need specific words "police crackdown"? or somesuch? you are as bad as marco rubio. you got a narrative and and reality be damned. sounds like support for protesters and is clearly not showing some kinda approval o' the cuban government.

went through the same exact issue with bernie sanders criticizing antifa violence. no matter how many times we showed how bernie criticized antifa specific and violence in general, gd believed that bernie were supporting such elements.

dog with a bone. 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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@Gromnir exactly when did you think the protesters NEEDED support? Before after the police started beating the hell out of them, arresting them, or disappearing them? Whatever. You know exactly what I’m talking about and your intentional verbal obstinacy he has become tiresome.

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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45 minutes ago, Sarex said:

That is the rigmarole they went through to circumvent the 1971 provisions that the article linked talked about. Even when you read the "law" you mentioned above and combine that with this, you get Germany breaking it's own laws.

Cool. You seem really passionate about Kosovo, so I was wondering what your deal was.

They are breaking EU's policies not sell weapons to countries that use them to start conflicts or break human rights, but that policy has never been strong until, but lately Germany has started to act like it should be actually be followed.

I am not really any way passionate about Kosovo, just commenting your post because I by chance knew that it wasn't that accurate

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7 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

@Gromnir exactly when did you think the protesters NEEDED support? Before after the police started beating the hell out of them, arresting them, or disappearing them? Whatever. You know exactly what I’m talking about and your intentional verbal obstinacy he has become tiresome.

That is question that people asked during last summer protest in USA

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Regardless of the actual views of the Democrats, I don't think the outcome in Cuba is going to be a good one for the protesters.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

You know exactly what I’m talking about and your intentional verbal obstinacy he has become tiresome.

indeed. we know exactly what were your complaint 'cause you posted for all to see and you posted two days after biden did exact what you said he wouldn't/couldn't do.  your after the fact retconning in an effort to somehow legitimize a criticism which ignored reality is indulging a level o' obstinacy we dare not try and match. 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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10 minutes ago, Elerond said:

That is question that people asked during last summer protest in USA

Or the French yellow vests. Nowadays they aren't even worth a story.

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11 minutes ago, Elerond said:

That is question that people asked during last summer protest in USA

and the thing is, there weren't no specific day within a window o' opportunity (from gd's pov) o' less than a week which woulda' been essential. POTUS stepping into to announce support for protesters in cuba is understandable having limited practical impact and even when such occurred we know at least one boardie pretends like it never happened. converse, imagine if trump had stood up and declared his support for peaceful protests and committed fed resources to prevent the diminution o' civil liberties o' those arrested or detained during the summer protests... instead o' sending insignia-free troops to places such as portland and disappearing people into unmarked vans. 

were no specific day trump needed do the right thing during the summer. were a whole lotta days he were doing the wrong thing, and more than 25% o' the nation were cheering as trump violated basic Constitutional and human rights, and almost another 20% o' americans, while perhaps less comfortable with such authoritarian excesses, were nevertheless willing to go along with the leader of their party as he and william barr sent masked troops to imprison and attack protesters whether they were involved in crimes or not. there were days and weeks and even months when trump coulda' changed course and gotten things right, but chose to do exact opposite.

but yeah, cuba situation would be complete different if the press release had been delivered days earlier, and mentioned words like "socialism" or phrases like "police crackdown" right?

HA! Good Fun! 

ps state tv and other sources o' news convincing people that major metropolitan areas were burning non-stop for months legitimized trump actions, but even so it were POTUS who coulda' made a difference on any o' a multitude o' different days during the summer.

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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4 hours ago, Malcador said:

I dunno, I think they, too, should be shot with rubber bullets.

Someone destroyed some property, time to send in the troops.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

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"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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6 hours ago, Elerond said:

They are breaking EU's policies not sell weapons to countries that use them to start conflicts or break human rights, but that policy has never been strong until, but lately Germany has started to act like it should be actually be followed.

I am not really any way passionate about Kosovo, just commenting your post because I by chance knew that it wasn't that accurate

But Elerond their is a history to the region with conflicts and countries like Serbia and Croatia are stable and have  sustainable economies and that is important to overall peace in the region

Why does Kosovo want these weapons in the first place? How do we know its not with the intention of starting some sort of ethnic conflict and dont you think its provocative for Germany to send weapons to Kosovo ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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4 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Why does Kosovo want these weapons in the first place? How do we know its not with the intention of starting some sort of ethnic conflict and dont you think its provocative for Germany to send weapons to Kosovo ?

When did that ever stop Germany? They were also among the first to support Ukraine's invasion and occupation of Crimea, they immediately supported Albanian separatists in Kosovo (which was actually the something like the birthplace of Serbia in the seventh century) etc. USA is not the only ones flexing muscles when it comes to realpolitik, legitimacy be damned. Russia and China does it too, the England used to be the undisputed world champions in the sport of Gunboat Diplomacy, so not a uniquely German (or US) thing.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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On a sort, well, wouldn't call it a positive note, but at least *something* may have out of the Cuban protests and death of one of the protesters...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-57844864


"Cuba has temporarily lifted import duties on food, medicine and other essentials following recent unrest.

As of next Monday, there will be no limit on such goods brought in by travellers until the end of the year.

Thousands took to the streets on Sunday in protests over food and medicine shortages, price increases and the government's handling of Covid-19.

One demand they had was for people arriving in Cuba to bring in supplies without paying customs duties."

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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1 minute ago, Gorth said:

When did that ever stop Germany? They were also among the first to support Ukraine's invasion and occupation of Crimea, they immediately supported Albanian separatists in Kosovo (which was actually the something like the birthplace of Serbia in the seventh century) etc. USA is not the only ones flexing muscles when it comes to realpolitik, legitimacy be damned. Russia and China does it too, the England used to be the undisputed world champions in the sport of Gunboat Diplomacy, so not a uniquely German (or US) thing.

Germany was also one of the first countries in the EU  to not want harsher sanctions against Russia generally for the last several years of Russia's controversial geopolitics interventions ( assassinations in foreign countries and state sponsored hacking, not REvil which is not state sponsored ) and has pushed back on more punitive measures on Russia on the new US\EU alliance so you  can see that they also play the role of moderation 

But I dont want to make this about Germany, they need to take accountability for this infraction I agree. I also admit  I am a huge supporter of the important, positive role that Germany has played in the world since the end of WW2 and the Cold War so I genuinely admire how they have been able to recreate themselves and their influence after the dark days of the Nazis but its not through military hegemony....its economic strength through sustainable and successful polices and work ethos 

So the most important question which has been unanswered so far is " why does Kosovo want these weapons" ....nothing encourages additional  conflicts in parts of the world with a history of conflict than an arms race or similar development

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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8 hours ago, Elerond said:

 

I am originally from Finland, my family has lived here at least from 13th century when church started to keep record of Finnish people.

13th century !!!! Thats amazing, what a long time. Do you know what your family use to do through the years, were they soldiers, blacksmiths , Vikings, reindeer hunters ? I am always interested when people can see what their ancestors did 

Its easy for people with an ancestry to England to trace their family trees if you want to because the English keep excellent records and preserve family trees. But I have only really been concerned when my family arrived in SA and most of them came with the British army in 1899 to fight the Boers. My great grandfather had 4 brothers and after the Second Boer War (1899-1902 ) 2 brothers stayed and lived in SA and 3 went back to England. So you can see how my family was split from that day on with a UK side and a SA side 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gorth said:

When did that ever stop Germany? They were also among the first to support Ukraine's invasion and occupation of Crimea, they immediately supported Albanian separatists in Kosovo (which was actually the something like the birthplace of Serbia in the seventh century) etc.

It's particularly egregious given Germany's history of supporting two attempted genocides against the Serbs in the past 100 (ish) years. Between a quarter and a fifth of Serbia's population died in WW1, by far the highest proportion for any country. And of course in WW2 Germany massively supported their puppet Croat government and the Ustasi militia whose overt aim was epitomised in the infamous 3x1/3 slogan (1/3 dead of Serbs dead, 1/3 expelled, 1/3 forcibly converted). If there's one country that should be keeping well away out of shame and embarrassment it's Germany.

But for all the talk about feeling embarrassment about their history Germany's recent acts have been to systematically shaft their previous victims, with the notable exception of Israel.

Edited by Zoraptor
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22 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

It's particularly egregious given Germany's history of supporting two attempted genocides against the Serbs in the past 100 (ish) years. Between a quarter and a fifth of Serbia's population died in WW1, by far the highest proportion for any country. And of course in WW2 Germany massively supported their puppet Croat government and the Ustasi militia whose overt aim was epitomised in the infamous 3x1/3 slogan (1/3 dead of Serbs dead, 1/3 expelled, 1/3 forcibly converted). If there's one country that should be keeping well away out of shame and embarrassment it's Germany.

But for all the talk about feeling embarrassment about their history Germany's recent acts have been to systematically shaft their previous victims, with the notable exception of Israel.'

So Germany doesnt play a critical and stabilizing role in the continued sustainability of the EU? Are their recent acts all terrible ?

And the EU is a huge success and the worlds most successful economic trading block and is a primary  destination for millions of people who immigrate from their home countries and want a new life in the EU...so we know the EU is a  nice place and if Germany is an important part of that they cant be that bad ....surly ?

What am I missing :blink:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

13th century !!!! Thats amazing, what a long time. Do you know what your family use to do through the years, were they soldiers, blacksmiths , Vikings, reindeer hunters ? I am always interested when people can see what their ancestors did 

Its easy for people with an ancestry to England to trace their family trees if you want to because the English keep excellent records and preserve family trees. But I have only really been concerned when my family arrived in SA and most of them came with the British army in 1899 to fight the Boers. My great grandfather had 4 brothers and after the Second Boer War (1899-1902 ) 2 brothers stayed and lived in SA and 3 went back to England. So you can see how my family was split from that day on with a UK side and a SA side 

 

Viking era ended before we started keep records and Finnish were mostly receivers of viking raids instead of doing them, but probably there were some Finns that become vikings.

There have been all sort of people during years. Cotters, serfs, teachers, blacksmiths, yeomen, soldiers, prisoners of war (maybe surprising but when you are kept as ransom for several decades you probably could count it as occupation I guess) etc.

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I know a perfect solution to this Cuba problem. Cuba has a lot of people who want liberty. We have a lot of people who want oppression (antifa). Let's trade! :lol:

A capitalist solution to a communist problem!

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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15 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I know a perfect solution to this Cuba problem. Cuba has a lot of people who want liberty. We have a lot of people who want oppression (antifa). Let's trade! :lol:

A capitalist solution to a communist problem!

Antifa want oppression ?  Thought they want to just break stuff.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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