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The all things Political Topic - For who in this dark, dream-haunted Land dares Resist the righteous flame of Wrath And Doom themselves to despair and death?


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19 hours ago, Gorth said:

No good having your local alt rights, racists, failed militia men etc. to do the job of serve and protect if they have all the empathy of Hannibal Lecter and the gear of the Russian Ministry of Interior troops.

Wasn't "serve and protect" thrown to thrash by Supreme Court? One of the reasons US "police" doesn't qualify as police by other western countries standard as I pointed out a while back. As for the who becomes a policeman it would be of course ideal to have only super tolerant empath with supreme physical prowess but that would leave you with Chris Hemsworth being the only cop in US ūüėČ So you have to take some people who are rough on the edges but then the system should trim them to passable levels so you could safely give them a weapon and release among general public. But US doesn't seem to have a solid system.¬†

Edited by Skarpen
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https://www.amazon.com/Nightmare-Scenario-Administrations-Response-Pandemic/dp/006306605X

Interesting interview I just watched   about this newly released book by the authors. Its all about the complete mishandling of the pandemic in the USA by the Trump administration. Anyway  Redfield, Hahn and Birx, the top Whitehouse medical people  during the  Trump presidency who could get fired, made a secret agreement. They were all getting targeted by some people on the right and Trump ideologues for not supporting the misinformation around the pandemic and they agreed if any of them was fired they would all resign in protest

They let the Trump advisors know this, people like Mark Meadows,  and if this had happened just before the election this would have had additional disastrous consequences for Trumps campaign....so none of them were fired

Clever strategy and good thinking 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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So, Tucker Carlson thinks the NSA is spying on him? Hey you don’t need to convince me about the nefarious nature and heavy-handed tactics of out of control government agencies. Particularly those with minimal oversight and managed by people drunk on the power they have. 
 

So is it possible? Oh yeah. Most definitely. Is it likely? Nope. Sorry Tucker. At the end of the day you’re just some guy with a TV show that preaches to the converted. You’re not that important.

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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Well, I guess the NSA is spying on everyone, and he's a subset of that group.

Quote

On Monday evening, Carlson said his show had been contacted by an intelligence community whistleblower who claimed the government had been monitoring his communications relative to stories he and his team have been working on in an effort to leak that information and damage him.

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/560861-tucker-carlson-doubles-down-on-nsa-spy-claim-after-agency-denial

 

Some dude online, no doubt.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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The biggest hole in that logic that the NSA wants him off the air is the fox will just put on another one just like him. He’s not the first guy to inhabit that timeslot on that network. Nor the second or the third nor the fourth. They were all replaced and he can be too. Eventually he will be. There’s another show just like his that comes on after him and another one just like that one that comes on after that. Thinking that replacing him will change anything is like thinking pulling one log out of the fire will pull it out. I seriously hope the NSA is smarter than that LOL

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

So, Tucker Carlson thinks the NSA is spying on him? Hey you don’t need to convince me about the nefarious nature and heavy-handed tactics of out of control government agencies. Particularly those with minimal oversight and managed by people drunk on the power they have. 
 

So is it possible? Oh yeah. Most definitely. Is it likely? Nope. Sorry Tucker. At the end of the day you’re just some guy with a TV show that preaches to the converted. You’re not that important.

They're watching him, just not in the way he's saying.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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The Fox crowd has spent years conditioning its audience into disbelieving the mainstream media. Once that happens, what do you have left to believe in other than conspiracy theories? Here's a conspiracy theory: he was fed a line about the NSA by the Russians in order to stoke the fires of¬†government distrust and paranoia in his audience. Putin would love nothing more than to see the USA intelligence agencies dismantled.¬†ūü§ę Heh.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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If we're talking about misinformation this report (pdf) may be of interest to some. It's the NZ Classification Office's report into misinformation and attitudes to it in New Zealand.

Wouldn't bother reading the text, just have a look at the figures. And remember that, as always with this sort of thing, the questions are a bit... granular in some cases.

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On 6/30/2021 at 12:07 PM, rjshae said:

The Fox crowd has spent years conditioning its audience into disbelieving the mainstream media. Once that happens, what do you have left to believe in other than conspiracy theories? Here's a conspiracy theory: he was fed a line about the NSA by the Russians in order to stoke the fires of¬†government distrust and paranoia in his audience. Putin would love nothing more than to see the USA intelligence agencies dismantled.¬†ūü§ę Heh.

Well, U.S. intelligence agencies are pretty nasty, and they are working hand in hand with the media in their quest to maintain global domination. 

Anyone else watch the CCP 100 year centenary?  I thought it was pretty good, though there's some mistranslations flying around about what Xi actually said but all-in-all I was pretty impressed, even if it was kind of "more of the same".

‚ÄúIf we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.‚Ä̬†

-Ulysses S. Grant

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As if things weren't bad enough in Australia, with the combined efforts of the Murdoch media and the Liberal Party government cracking down hard on the independent press, China wants to play "suppress the dissenting voices" too. One thing my old country definitely did do better, was standing up for the freedom of speech (to be exact, the Danish people did, twisting the arm of the government when the latter wanted to give in to pressure around the infamous cartoons)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-57647418

"Chinese pro-democracy students in Australia experience harassment and fear punishment if they speak out on sensitive issues, a new report says.

Human Rights Watch found such students feel surveilled in Australia, leading many to self-censor in classrooms.

Academics teaching China courses in the country say they have also felt pressure to censor themselves.

China's embassy in Canberra strongly rejected the report on Wednesday, calling it "biased"."

‚ÄúHe who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.‚ÄĚ - Albert Einstein

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Same thing's happened here, and there have also been some very suspicious burglaries.

We also had a Chinese MP who lied on his immigration papers and had been working in a espionage school in China teaching english to spies and who somehow managed to survive an electoral cycle despite that let alone have citizenship revoked. He and his Labour Party equivalent were coincidentally forced to resign last election. Though Labour has a replacement who is every bit as sketchy on the face of it, having been leader of one of those notorious on campus groups.

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On 6/30/2021 at 11:21 PM, Zoraptor said:

If we're talking about misinformation this report (pdf) may be of interest to some. It's the NZ Classification Office's report into misinformation and attitudes to it in New Zealand.

Wouldn't bother reading the text, just have a look at the figures. And remember that, as always with this sort of thing, the questions are a bit... granular in some cases.

 

On 6/30/2021 at 6:07 PM, rjshae said:

The Fox crowd has spent years conditioning its audience into disbelieving the mainstream media. Once that happens, what do you have left to believe in other than conspiracy theories? Here's a conspiracy theory: he was fed a line about the NSA by the Russians in order to stoke the fires of¬†government distrust and paranoia in his audience. Putin would love nothing more than to see the USA intelligence agencies dismantled.¬†ūü§ę Heh.

 @rjshae,   I remember our chat last week or so where I was saying how I am studying the psychological and societal reasons for the degrees of misinformation that occurred  in the USA in some Republican states and what caused so many Americans to basically become disconnected to certain realities of the world. 

Its complicated because of the various factors that contributed but Zora post is indirectly linked to our discussion

@Zoraptor I just joke with you about what distinguishes NZ from Oz as I know each country has its own character and attractions. I believe NZ offers an ideal home for those who want the lifestyle. Its not somewhere I could live because I would feel restless as its limited in things I am use to. I know a work friend who immigrated to NZ after his girlfriend left SA with his daughter and went to NZ. She felt that SA was not a country that had a good future and was  able immigrate and take her daughter to NZ where their is no crime and none of the issues she is concerned about in SA......because she is the mom she has full custody which seemed unfair. My friend ended immigrating to NZ but it took him about 6-8 months because with his degrees and experience he was over qualified for the NZ financial market that primarily invests in the software we sell. But end of the day NZ has economic strengths but not necessarily in the field we work in. So he ended up getting a job at a NZ ISP, he still works in software but his job description has been downgraded immensely yet he is  very happy because he is now able to see his daughter and he has rekindled his romance with his ex it worked out well in NZ

But going back to your report about misinformation in NZ, I never would have thought NZ could have this problem that led to the creation of such a detailed report...58 pages? I am going to read the whole report because its rare I get to understand  the NZ 

In your opinion what is the level of misinformation in NZ, is it more an normal but how would you define this  in the context of the normal ? 

And another strange reality of NZ is you guys havent really  been  ravaged by the virus so I wonder if this has any relevance to why some people do it ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I'd be a bit suspicious of New Zealanders' ability to be objective about ourselves, and being defensive of our reputation. It's an interesting report, but it is very much New Zealanders' attitudes to perceived misinformation rather than being an objective summary of actual misinformation.

The root problem when saying how much misinformation there is here or anywhere really is that you can't really define 'misinformation' very precisely or objectively. There's a lot of spin and information massaging that may or may not be misinformation as well as stuff that's outright and definitely false, and you'll always get people who stubbornly stick to believing things that are false or who cannot bring themselves to believe they fell for misinformation- and they will do surveys every bit as much as anyone else.

If you surveyed people about misinformation about, say, Gulf War 2 the results would be massively different depending on when you did it, and where. Most Americans in, say, February 2003 would think that the misinformation was coming from those who didn't want a war and that Saddam had WMDs, could fire them at London in 45 minutes, and supported Al Qaeda- and the reverse would be true in, say, France. Do the survey now and American attitudes would be a lot closer to those of France- but you'll still get people who insist there was no misinformation, because everything that was false was just a massive series of completely honest mistakes rather than a deliberate and organised attempt to deceive.

 

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29 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

I'd be a bit suspicious of New Zealanders' ability to be objective about ourselves, and being defensive of our reputation. It's an interesting report, but it is very much New Zealanders' attitudes to perceived misinformation rather than being an objective summary of actual misinformation.

The root problem when saying how much misinformation there is here or anywhere really is that you can't really define 'misinformation' very precisely or objectively. There's a lot of spin and information massaging that may or may not be misinformation as well as stuff that's outright and definitely false, and you'll always get people who stubbornly stick to believing things that are false or who cannot bring themselves to believe they fell for misinformation- and they will do surveys every bit as much as anyone else.

If you surveyed people about misinformation about, say, Gulf War 2 the results would be massively different depending on when you did it, and where. Most Americans in, say, February 2003 would think that the misinformation was coming from those who didn't want a war and that Saddam had WMDs, could fire them at London in 45 minutes, and supported Al Qaeda- and the reverse would be true in, say, France. Do the survey now and American attitudes would be a lot closer to those of France- but you'll still get people who insist there was no misinformation, because everything that was false was just a massive series of completely honest mistakes rather than a deliberate and organised attempt to deceive.

 

You have made  some relevant points about this topic that I need to clarify what I mean by misinformation because it can become confusing 

I just mean about the virus and peoples acceptance of it, its definitely a topic that has some denialists in places like   SA, USA and I assume most other countries that have freedom of  speech. How far is NZ with the vaccine ?

But what  we saw in the  USA was different than  normal " virus questioning  " .....I mentioned this to @rjshae

I havent seen ever so many people in predominantly Republican  states who had created for themselves a selective reality of the world, the virus and why the Deep State was behind the mask wearing

It honestly upset me, I know its sounds strange but I dont like to see any people but this was mostly white people who had seemed to have forsaken an inherent sense of logic and understanding of the world. 

For example some Trump supporters openly saying  " we will only believe what Trump tells us, even Fox doenst matter anymore  " and things like " I cannot believe how the Miami mayor is going to be killing people because he is insisting on masks being mandatory "  ......and I will always remember what she said because she was  this beautiful, Latino women. And I hate to see beautiful women so agitated and confused  .....she literally told this  entire, board of doctors who were chairing the townhall meeting that none of them understood what they about to be doing!!! " How can doctors want to kill people " and she was  almost in tears, so she believed that mask wearing  somehow leads to people being killed due to some deep state surreptitious  plot. 

Now normally we have to walk away from this type of ignorance due to how much work is required to get her to understand the nature of the virus. But I definitely think she can get a pass because she is not from the USA and its important we try to ensure that people who immigrate to the USA from South Americans countries are not judged unfairly ....8)

Hurlshot and Gromnir have suggested sometimes that I am insensitive to the reality that immigrants face....but once again I can confirm that is not the case :dancing:

And then people in states like Arizona walking up to the Sky News journalist and openly not wearing a mask. When openly why you reject masks the lady says "  carbon dioxide gets trapped in the mask and somehow that causes you to die of lack of air " .....its hard to understand but no issue on Sky News saying this 

 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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From the department of "current affairs" in Australia (BOM = Bureau of Meteorology, i.e. the weather forecast)

 

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‚ÄúHe who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.‚ÄĚ - Albert Einstein

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45 minutes ago, Gorth said:

From the department of "current affairs" in Australia (BOM = Bureau of Meteorology, i.e. the weather forecast)

 

That was really funny and well done, really made me laugh at times :lol:

But I have to disagree with some of the generalizations but end of the  day this is an Australian reality and it would be remiss of me to comment constructively without knowing the facts, sequence of events  and doing research on the actual data  and real evidence that would confirm examples of corporate malfeasance and illegal polluting and things like dumping of hazardous materials, she mentions several examples of companies being involved in these crimes 

But¬†¬†she is so¬† hot I prefer to just agree with everything she says¬†¬†ūüíó

And Gorthfuscious this isnt really shallow because I dont live in Australia 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I am always amused when people demand the government solve the problems the government causes. That’s like using a flamethrower to put out a house fire.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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28 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I am always amused when people demand the government solve the problems the government causes. That’s like using a flamethrower to put out a house fire.

Today's solutions become tomorrow's problems.

At least it keeps people employed.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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On 7/4/2021 at 3:36 PM, Guard Dog said:

I am always amused when people demand the government solve the problems the government causes. That’s like using a flamethrower to put out a house fire.

is anything but a surprise the people is gonna demand the government solve problems. is arguable the raison d'être o' government to address problems too big or complex for any one individual to address. did gd ever benefit from public education? ever driven on an interstate highway? did gd get his free covid vaccination? am knowing gd mentioned his college were paid for by his military service, yes? 

one o' these days gd is gonna have an epiphany moment 'bout how representative democracy works.  am surmising today is not the day. the people demanding stoopid stuff in spite o' warnings that such demands is ineffectual or even self defeating, warnings as often as not coming from career bureaucrats, results in the elected representatives o' the people passing laws. 'course the people also ask for laws banning toxic waste dumping on private land and funding to eradicate child leukemia n' such. those freaking animals.

*shrug*

if you could take the people out o' the equation, then perhaps an ideal government could be designed and implemented. the government is a problem because o' the nature o' the people.

oh, and just for funsies, on the six month anniversary o' an infamous, shameful and embarrassing day in american history...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996/capitol-riot-trump-supporters.html

some people keep diminishing the relevance o' the events o' january 6. no video from the nyt will change hearts and minds, but the stranglehold individuals have on their fantasy that january 6 has been magnified beyond its actual relevance becomes that much more quixotic as the reality o' january 6 is made clearer thanks to subsequent investigations.  is too bad Congress couldn't agree to the commission which were negotiated to in good faith by both democrats and republicans, eh?

HA! Good Fun!

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Posted (edited)

LOL ‚Äúthe people‚Äú. I‚Äôm long past the point of giving a s‚ÄĒt¬†about the people. I‚Äôd call them sheep but that would really just be an insult to real sheep. A real sheep can‚Äôt help being a dimwitted heard animal. People have to choose to be that. God gave them the intellect to be otherwise they just choose not to be. People believe lies because they choose to believe lies. When those lies confirmed preconceived biases it just sugar coats the lies. Some 17,000 people went to see Trump in¬†Sarasota and every single one of them seems to actually believe the election was stolen from him. Just as the same simple minded sheep on the other side of the political spectrum believe the Biden administration that the crime rate and inflation is entirely the fault of the Republicans. As you well know the truth is more complicated.

Political demagogues, machine politicians, and earnest  civil servants all look into the media cameras and lie to us every freaking day. The fact that people believe lies hardly surprising when lies are all they are ever fed. And why wouldn’t they lie to us? People are stupid. They don’t have the patience to hear complex explanations. They don’t want the truth. They want to hear a story. They want a hero to cheer for and a bad guy to boo at. They want to hear that all the bad things that are in the world are only there because of the malfeasance of someone or something they have already been preconditioned to hate. Complex explanations of complicated events like inflation and debt monetization leave them emotionally unsatisfied. They want to hear that it’s all the Republicans/Democrats fault. 
 

To hell with them. They are getting the government they deserve on both sides. The fact that that government occasionally does good is the smallest of redeeming qualities. The fact that you’re better off with it then without it its a little better. A necessary evil at its best, an intolerable one at its worst.

Edited by Guard Dog

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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43 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

They don’t want the truth. They want to hear a story. They want a hero to cheer for and a bad guy to boo at. They want to hear that all the bad things that are in the world are only there because of the malfeasance of someone or something they have already been preconditioned to hate.

Something like the government, amirite? :shifty:

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...I'll get me coat...

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12 hours ago, Guard Dog said:


 

To hell with them. They are getting the government they deserve on both sides. The fact that that government occasionally does good is the smallest of redeeming qualities. The fact that you’re better off with it then without it its a little better. A necessary evil at its best, an intolerable one at its worst.

and if your nihilism were consistent, it would still be comic but at least it would be believable. unfortunately, you distinguish them, the established parties, as corrupt and irredeemable and then do your broken record bit o' repetition lamenting how voting democrat or republican is a kinda voluntary self mutilation... at which point you observe there is an alternative. government is broken. the democrats and republicans is all bad. you rage 'gainst the stoopid o' the people for not seeing as clear as you do. how may the people ignore biden and burisma (*snort*) or the florida gop trying to legislate free speech on college campuses and not rage at how such is flip sides o' same coin? (huh?) is no winners. only losers. well, almost. 

your cynicism takes you to ridiculous places where you suggest they is all broken and beyond hope o' redemption, and then you vote seth cohen, and not as a joke but 'cause you see such as the intelligent and reasonable alternative. you take any example o' a government fail, even if you need manufacture such fails with the help o' fringe radio conspiracies, and use such to justify the fear they is just looking for an excuse to take your guns... or whatever is the current hobgoblin running naked and screaming in your brain today. taxes is theft and the government goons who come to take his rusty chain saw (and pay him for it) deserve a lethal reply.  is tough to keep track o' gd's fever dreams 'bout the evils o' government... though based on past comments gd fully expects government to protect him from fellow citizens who wanna take his stuff, which is kinda hypocritical given the statement which started this current side journey.  "flamethrowers" indeed.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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The president of Haiti has been assassinated

I didn’t realize he had refused to hold elections or step down. Haiti and the Dominican Republic occupy the same island but are worlds apart in every other sense.

 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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16 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

The president of Haiti has been assassinated

I didn’t realize he had refused to hold elections or step down. Haiti and the Dominican Republic occupy the same island but are worlds apart in every other sense.

 

That country has always been a mess. The only leaders I remember were "Papa Doc" and "Baby Doc" (no, not their real names)

‚ÄúHe who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.‚ÄĚ - Albert Einstein

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