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The all things Political Topic - For who in this dark, dream-haunted Land dares Resist the righteous flame of Wrath And Doom themselves to despair and death?


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21 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

Nothing...yet.  However, if I don't like the outcome of the 2024 election I will probably move out of the country. 

I enjoy my freedoms and lack of censorship but the U.S. is kind of a mess culturally and lacks cohesion and a united vision for the future, so I wouldn't mind the tradeoff.

Also:

100-year anniversary: Why do people join the Chinese ...

I have to tell you your fascination with collectivist and totalitarian government is hard for me to understand. I think if the Borg were real you would go to them and demand to be assimilated

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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30 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

"Hypersonic" is the new black, which is the same as the old black. What if I told you, that with my own two hands, I help assemble hypersonic missiles back in the early 90's. Say hello to the AIM-54 Phoenix missile. Weve been able to make rockets go very fast for a long time.

I'm sure the Iranian Revolutionary Guard appreciates it 😛

"Both the missile and the aircraft were used by Iran and the United States Navy"

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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2 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

"Hypersonic" is the new black, which is the same as the old black. What if I told you, that with my own two hands, I help assemble hypersonic missiles back in the early 90's. Say hello to the AIM-54 Phoenix missile. Weve been able to make rockets go very fast for a long time.

Well yeah, hypersonic is certainly a bit of a buzz word currently.

I don't think anyone would be that surprised about air to air hypersonic missiles being relatively old, since they potentially have to chase down supersonic targets rather than (relatively speaking) stationary ships or land targets. And of course rockets have been hypersonic since the V2. But, in this case there is a bit of a scale difference between the Khinzal and Phoenix in just about every respect, and not just due to the differing roles.

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18 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/24/democrats-need-show-they-can-be-trusted-with-power/

Guys here is a very worrying read, but not unexpected, about how effective Democrats have been at running states in the USA and the impact with not dealing with crime, and protracted protests IMO,   and things like vilifying the entire police force  and therefore making certain  Democrat controlled states more lawless which has a direct result of less economic growth, businesses leaving  and people wanting to live their 

Its basically warns of a real chance of more Republican victories in the midterms. After several real issues with the entire Trump presidency I hope the Democrats dont squander their political capital and we see the rise of another Trump type presidency...none of us want that despite my support for some of the GOP policies 

And  the journalist  is someone who votes Democrat and is very well informed and objective. So lets not just ignore this as " right wing propaganda " or " garbage culture war " hyperbole 

 

He makes some valid points (Democrat legislatures are, indeed, often incompetent) but his dismissal of "Republican advantages", to push his own theories is disengenuous. The Republican advantage in state legislatures is almost exclusively a matter of demographics.  As for businesses leaving California to Texas, one could argue that it could even help Democrats in Texas, although it shouldn't make that much of a difference either way.

 

Also, Zakaria used to be a Reagan conservative. Just because he isn't the Trumpiest Trumper that ever Trumped, it doesn't make him a Democrat. Hence why he is basically pushing a narrative that spending by Democrat state governments should be curtailed.

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7 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

 

He makes some valid points (Democrat legislatures are, indeed, often incompetent) but his dismissal of "Republican advantages", to push his own theories is disengenuous. The Republican advantage in state legislatures is almost exclusively a matter of demographics.  As for businesses leaving California to Texas, one could argue that it could even help Democrats in Texas, although it shouldn't make that much of a difference either way.

 

Also, Zakaria used to be a Reagan conservative. Just because he isn't the Trumpiest Trumper that ever Trumped, it doesn't make him a Democrat. Hence why he is basically pushing a narrative that spending by Democrat state governments should be curtailed.

I  am glad you read the article because it raises some realities on the ground that shouldnt  be dismissed. But dont ignore the rise of crime and the reasons for this

But as far as his political loyalties lie, you will find basically  all the CNN journalists and their various news people wont reveal exactly who they vote for but if you watch CNN its clear they are not Trump supporters

Watch this video, its only 3 minutes and ask yourself " who is Fareed endorsing " without actually endorsing them. This was before the 2016 election

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/07/opinions/vote-history-in-mind-zakaria/index.html

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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4 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I  am glad you read the article because it raises some realities on the ground that shouldnt  be dismissed. But dont ignore the rise of crime and the reasons for this

But as far as his political loyalties lie, you will find basically  all the CNN journalists and their various news people wont reveal exactly who they vote for but if you watch CNN its clear they are not Trump supporters

Watch this video, its only 3 minutes and ask yourself " who is Fareed endorsing " without actually endorsing them. This was before the 2016 election

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/07/opinions/vote-history-in-mind-zakaria/index.html

 

I am aware that Zakaria jumped ship due to Trump. That doesn't make him a Democrat any more than, say, Liz Cheney.

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"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I  am glad you read the article because it raises some realities on the ground that shouldnt  be dismissed. But dont ignore the rise of crime and the reasons for this

But as far as his political loyalties lie, you will find basically  all the CNN journalists and their various news people wont reveal exactly who they vote for but if you watch CNN its clear they are not Trump supporters

Watch this video, its only 3 minutes and ask yourself " who is Fareed endorsing " without actually endorsing them. This was before the 2016 election

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/07/opinions/vote-history-in-mind-zakaria/index.html

trump lost in part because a bunch of people who voted for republicans down ballot did not support trump. arizona is a rather unique state in that nearly a third of registered voters identify as independent. those independents came out more in favor of biden than trump, but to suggest that those arizona independents revealed their political loyalties because they decided trump was too toxic for them is questionable, no? there were more than a dozen members of the house who voted to impeach trump, and in the senate, mitt romney did so twice. tell us how mitt revealed his political loyalties by expressing a rejection of trump.

groups such as rap exist because more than a few traditional republicans were unable to stomach trump's excesses and overt stupidity. 

btw, republican handwringing about crime (and folks such as bruce who parrot the republicans on such issues) is particular curious. last summer our cities were supposed burning constant and interrupted for months on end, no? fed troops being sent in to arrest people not actual committing crimes and not actual accused of having committed crimes was somehow justified because o' the rampant lawlessness in democrat cities. what happened to those firestorms of vandalism and chaos caused by antifa and blm?  

so, devastation o' the summer riots and the attendant violence(minor) and vandalism (noteworthy) ended in spite o' a complete lack of fed stormtroopers roaming the streets in their unmarked vans, but crime increased? well, given bruce's curious correlation reasoning, the obvious solution to current crime problems is to bring back the summer protests and the endemic burning and looting and civil unrest, no?

*snort*

am waiting for the bruce epiphany regarding last summer's protests which never arrives, but you will move readily and without self reflection to the next lib caused crisis o' chaos and mayhem plaguing major metropolitans 'round the world without considering the possibility you are getting it all wrong. again, bruce saw such months long widespread lawlessness and chaos plaguing the US on such a scale as to justify the use o' gestapo tactics to mitigate the damage. you don't see a problem with crime having spiked after the protests stopped? 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I wonder if people are putting the effect before the cause?

Do democrat controlled cities become "lawless" (see Groms post above) because the politicians are Democrats or are they destitute, "lawless" areas in the US that votes Democrat on the ballots in the hope of a better better/less bad future?

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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2 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I wonder if people are putting the effect before the cause?

Do democrat controlled cities become "lawless" (see Groms post above) because the politicians are Democrats or are they destitute, "lawless" areas in the US that votes Democrat on the ballots in the hope of a better better/less bad future?

Their would be several reasons for the increase in crime in numerous cities and they not all Democrat controlled 

The "defunding of police " is a factor but its not the only one. Gromnir can ignore this but the reality is different 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/03/us/us-crime-rate-rise-2020/index.html#:~:text=The homicide uptick in the three cities comes,the largest number for the city on record.

My concern around this debate has never changed, I am primarily concerned with the morale and vilifying of the entire police and the nature of allowing violent and protracted strikes that the link discusses 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Gorth said:

US that votes Democrat on the ballots in the hope of a better better/less bad future?

Amazing that they never become disappointed or disillusioned by that isn’t it? Because things generally don’t get better. Not that voting for Republican would be any different.

if there was one thing I wish I could make people understand is that no one is going to do anything for you but you. Your politicians don’t love you. Hell they don’t even like you. You are a means to an end. And they’re sure as hell not going to do anything for you.

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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42 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

My concern around this debate has never changed, I am primarily concerned with the morale and vilifying of the entire police and the nature of allowing violent and protracted strikes that the link discusses 

Well, the police has sort of shown itself to be over paid and under educated for many of the tasks that it is being given. No good having your local alt rights, racists, failed militia men etc. to do the job of serve and protect if they have all the empathy of Hannibal Lecter and the gear of the Russian Ministry of Interior troops. Better equipped and trained for urban warfare than actual police work. Never mind serve and protect anyone other than their own post retirement pension. Many of those forces looks like they literally needs to be dissolved and rebuilt (and retrained) from scratch

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Their would be several reasons for the increase in crime in numerous cities and they not all Democrat controlled 

The "defunding of police " is a factor but its not the only one. Gromnir can ignore this but the reality is different 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/03/us/us-crime-rate-rise-2020/index.html#:~:text=The homicide uptick in the three cities comes,the largest number for the city on record.

My concern around this debate has never changed, I am primarily concerned with the morale and vilifying of the entire police and the nature of allowing violent and protracted strikes that the link discusses 

where is the causal link 'tween defund of cops and rise in crime? cities, whether they defunded police or not is seeing a rise in crime, including cities in texas such as galveston where more than 60% voted republican in the last election compared to just under 40% democrat. just another inconvenient fact though, eh? do your self a favor and look at crime statistics in texas, 'cause is one o' the few states where there is multiple urban areas which vote predominant republican. same problems.

you are failing correlation v. causation. is your kinda reasoning which had people believing 5g were responsible for covid, 'cause look at maps and see where is 5g and then look at where is covid outbreaks. am not denying crime has risen post pandemic. and? show us the connections. blame on an excuse which in fact undermines your previous position during the summer? again, last summer were utter chaos, yes? months of lawlessness and looting and violence, but crime was down? what?

the thing is, and you keep ignoring this point, you were defending the use o' authoritarian practices last summer, same kinda practices you condemn when is russia and china doing. your justification were crime and lawlessness. 'course now you is convinced by the new statistics that crime is genuine a problem, and that the libs is the cause. so what use o' force is demanded if unmarked vans and nameless fed agents arresting and imprisoning people were ok last summer? if crime is actual worse, then what do you suggest is the appropriate response?  go ahead and tell us that the fed efforts weren't enough last summer and more is needed today. dare you. dare you to do so and at same time condemn china and russia.

you got a disconnect problem on this issue. am not sure how to reach you.

HA! Good Fun!

ps btw, biden is against defund o' police. so, now what?

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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2 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Well, the police has sort of shown itself to be over paid and under educated for many of the tasks that it is being given. No good having your local alt rights, racists, failed militia men etc. to do the job of serve and protect if they have all the empathy of Hannibal Lecter and the gear of the Russian Ministry of Interior troops. Better equipped and trained for urban warfare than actual police work. Never mind serve and protect anyone other than their own post retirement pension. Many of those forces looks like they literally needs to be dissolved and rebuilt (and retrained) from scratch

I appreciate your view on topics as usual even if we dont always agree, that is the nature of debate 

But you unintentionally raising one  of the suggestions from within the US that I find is unrealistic and never going to happen and that is this view that " the police need to be dissolved and rebuilt ". Its well meaning and I assume comes from people who live in countries that dont have high levels of crime 

In SA we have high levels of crime as you know, much higher per capita than the USA and I shudder to think what would happen if we tried to " rebuild our police" because while you debating and discussing what this means criminals would be having a field day and crime would increase exponentially

This is part of the issue in the USA, while liberals and activists are debating " defunding the police " crime is running rampant because that is what criminals do. While people protest how terrible the police are the police due to several factors are handicapped and not able to be as effective around actually enforcing the law and protecting citizens 

So change must come from within and you can achieve certain structural changes without  sweeping statements. Or you can achieve change   in a reality where you dont have high levels of crime or many criminals who will take advantage of these changes to policing 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

where is the causal link 'tween defund of cops and rise in crime? cities, whether they defunded police or not is seeing a rise in crime, including cities in texas such as galveston where more than 60% voted republican in the last election compared to just under 40% democrat. just another inconvenient fact though, eh? do your self a favor and look at crime statistics in texas, 'cause is one o' the few states where there is multiple urban areas which vote predominant republican. same problems.

you are failing correlation v. causation. is your kinda reasoning which had people believing 5g were responsible for covid, 'cause look at maps and see where is 5g and then look at where is covid outbreaks. am not denying crime has risen post pandemic. and? show us the connections. blame on an excuse which in fact undermines your previous position during the summer? again, last summer were utter chaos, yes? months of lawlessness and looting and violence, but crime was down? what?

the thing is, and you keep ignoring this point, you were defending the use o' authoritarian practices last summer, same kinda practices you condemn when is russia and china doing. your justification were crime and lawlessness. 'course now you is convinced by the new statistics that crime is genuine a problem, and that the libs is the cause. so what use o' force is demanded if unmarked vans and nameless fed agents arresting and imprisoning people were ok last summer? if crime is actual worse, then what do you suggest is the appropriate response?  go ahead and tell us that the fed efforts weren't enough last summer and more is needed today. dare you. dare you to do so and at same time condemn china and russia.

you got a disconnect problem on this issue. am not sure how to reach you.

HA! Good Fun!

No Gromnir  I am not saying liberals are the problem, I am saying that one of the contributing factors in the US about the increase in crime is the constant message from  certain liberals and BLM activists about " defunding the police " and basically vilifying the entire police

But not all liberals have this view so I dont want to  generalize and create the impression " all liberals " 

 

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Just now, BruceVC said:

No Gromnir  I am not saying liberals are the problem, I am saying that one of the contributing factors in the US about the increase in crime is the constant message from  certain liberals and BLM activists about " defunding the police " and basically vilifying the entire police

But not liberals have this view so I dont want to  generalize and create the impression " all liberals " 

 

*sigh*

and yet you somehow thought it relevant to point out how political loyalty revealed through trump voting were a meaningful observation relative to this issue?

is a forest for the trees error in any event. you are deflecting whether intentional or not. let's not revisit bruce support o' authoritarianism. lets ignore the causation v. correlation error. the important issue is whether bruce is genuine anti lib or not?

fine. 

btw, Gromnir also suggested "defund" of police were foolish. that said, most cities only made token efforts to do so. whole lotta talk w/o much action. reason why were 'cause while folks who don't live in those south side neighborhoods o' chicago or similar think defund sounds swell 'cause cops is evil and whatnot, people who live in crime plagued neighborhoods gotta less enthusiastic pov on decreased police presence. john oliver telling us how there should be no drug warrants at all 'cause bad things happen during the execution o' such warrants has never had to share same building with a gang doing 24/7 drug business, and not the kinda drug business he might have seen while in college or on the set o' some tv show. am hopeful the progressives wakeup and take notice o' how eric adams message resonated in the nyc mayor primaries.

'course part o' the problem is that "defund" became the label for any effort to allocate police resources better or different.  right wing media obfuscation. again, biden supports increased funding to police which emphasize dispute resolution training and mental health support and whatnot, and that were the approach numerous "defund" cities took. nevertheless, biden is usual accused o' supporting cop defund. also, expect such changes to have a positive impact immediate, particular post pandemic, is foolishness.

last year we posted the camden efforts at defunding. is worth rereading. issue is more complex than defund v. no defund.

regardless, crime is up in metros regardless o' whether they defunded or not, whatever defund means 'cause is hardly a term with a uniform definition though you wouldn't realize such from a bruce post or a tucker carlson take. given how crime is up regardless o' efforts to defund, am thinking a rather more nuanced look at causes may be beneficial rather than suggesting defund is the cause or even a significant cause.

HA! Good Fun!

 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

This is part of the issue in the USA

Actually, it's really only a symptom. We can debate back and forth a bit around the symptoms and how best to apply band aid to a pulsating, arterial bleeding. The underlying cause is a "sick" society, where too many groups of people are left at the wayside. Too much inequality, too much poverty, too much focus on succeeding at all cost, including at the expense of your fellow man. It's a society where your birth dictates your fate almost as much as feudal Europe. Either born nobleman or serf. Outliers exists and people makes the jump once in a blue moon, but that just contributes to the fairy tale that those who are born into class nobility propagates as it makes the large masses with no prospects of a decent future docile, dreaming of a better future and getting frustrated (and violent) when realization sets in, "We're screwed any which way". Society is what needs fixing, but that's an even bigger task than fixing the police force(s) here and there.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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21 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Actually, it's really only a symptom. We can debate back and forth a bit around the symptoms and how best to apply band aid to a pulsating, arterial bleeding. The underlying cause is a "sick" society, where too many groups of people are left at the wayside. Too much inequality, too much poverty, too much focus on succeeding at all cost, including at the expense of your fellow man. It's a society where your birth dictates your fate almost as much as feudal Europe. Either born nobleman or serf. Outliers exists and people makes the jump once in a blue moon, but that just contributes to the fairy tale that those who are born into class nobility propagates as it makes the large masses with no prospects of a decent future docile, dreaming of a better future and getting frustrated (and violent) when realization sets in, "We're screwed any which way". Society is what needs fixing, but that's an even bigger task than fixing the police force(s) here and there.

I dont disagree that their are degrees of inequality in countries like the USA but what  would your suggestion be for a solution? Just give a high level overview as I know how complex these topics are and its unhelpful to get bogged down on subjective discussions around certain economic  suggestions which come with their own considerations and problems, like UBI which I dont support for various fundamental economic reasons 

So what I mean is what is your ideal country at the moment that doesn't have similar issues to the USA that the US could emulate ?

Because every country that is not a liberal Democracy with an advanced economy has much worse societal  problems than the US like Russia, China , Central America , the ME and Africa. So what is the better system going in your opinion if the US is a " sick " society ?

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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forgot to mention one o' our major gripes 'bout the defenders o' domestic authoritarianism. the police state handbook is a wonderful guide for what trump and barr did last summer and what the chinese do every spring, summer, fall and winter. the thing is, the chinese does better. cracking skulls is only 1/2 o' the effective police state approach. you gotta  spend money too. whether is keeping pensions robust or infrastructure projects, you gotta spend money if you are gonna, "beat the f***," outta resistance elements. crack skulls is not a solution w/o investment.

cop training in the US, such as it is, took many decades to become quasi-homogenized. how we got to the point where regardless if you is in florida or minnesota, any indication o' a contempt o' cop fail by a citizen is making reasonable a swift and immediate physical response is kinda complex. the fact such force is reasonable and more likely if you are minority is equal disturbing. regardless, in the US we already got a good start on the brutality aspect authoritarians admire. 

is the money aspect where we come up woeful short. carrot or stick is actual a misnomer for the would be authoritarian regime. beatings is considered necessary and desirable, but so too is the rewards and the visible benefits o' embracing the soulless autocrat. send troops into portland and chicago and weehawken (why not weehawken,) is pointless if you aren't willing to spend money in the same burgs and townships.

trump and barr were monstrous for embracing the unconstitutional and overt authoritarian police state handbook recommendations on protest suppression but they were also unforgivable stoopid for failing to recognize that if you is gonna implement such brutality then you need pay for the right to do so by making real improvements in the lives of folks living in the places where you is trampling freedoms and protesters simultaneous. the people will happily embrace evil, but evil and cheap is unforgivable.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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@Gromnir How many Presidential administrations in the 20th & 21st centuries did NOT sic the Federal “attack dog” on the citizenry at some point or form? Not being rhetorical, genuinely wondering. Off the top of my head the only ones I can come up with are Truman, Ford, Carter, and maybe Kennedy. Although on that last one I think I’m forgetting something. It’s no joke Trump wanted to do some truly despicable things. Some he actually did and some he was stopped from doing. Perhaps even historically despicable. But, considering our history, recent history in particular, nilhil nove sub sole 

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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40 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

@Gromnir How many Presidential administrations in the 20th & 21st centuries did NOT sic the Federal “attack dog” on the citizenry at some point or form? Not being rhetorical, genuinely wondering. Off the top of my head the only ones I can come up with are Truman, Ford, Carter, and maybe Kennedy. Although on that last one I think I’m forgetting something. It’s no joke Trump wanted to do some truly despicable things. Some he actually did and some he was stopped from doing. Perhaps even historically despicable. But, considering our history, recent history in particular, nilhil nove sub sole 

w/o the invitation of a state governor or state legislature? can only think of one post ww2 other than trump. is not anywhere near as common as you suggest. you may be using "sic" rather loose and ignore the state invite aspect is kinda disingenuous. heck, you can look at how nixon used troops compared to trump in spite o' the vietnam protests at the Capitol and pentagon. massive protests and a bunch o' hippies managed to break into the pentagon and were escorted out o' the building. compare to lafyette park or portland? 

and keep in mind there is federal agents in every us courthouse and most fed buildings in the country. have such feds on such property restraining trespassers and the like is not anywhere near same situation and happens all the time w/o nary a complaint, 'cause, duh.  if such happens on a larger scale 'cause the number o' trespassers or vandals is larger scale, it does not somehow make the fed actions more wrong.  if trump had sent agents to every fed courthouse in blue cities and had them do nothing save stand guard at such sites, am doubtful anybody save the lunatic fringe would complain. trump's use o' troops uninvited acting on state land to imprison protesters for as yet undetailed reasons were the issue. ordinary guard duty at fed sites is hardly a sic federal attack dog situation analogous to trump.

pre ww2 and excluding such obvious exceptions as war of 1812 and civil war? george washington did so with the whiskey rebellion. shay's rebellion happened pre Constitution but post articles of confederation. again, w/o a state invite, or time o' war is frightful uncommon. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps we weren't gonna mention, but might as well. eisenhower is the one post ww2 example we would concede. in 1957 the US President did genuine sic fed troops on citizenry w/o state approval. enforcement of brown v. board

pps am anticipating a misguided complaint 'bout the bureau of land management and the bundy folks. 

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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28 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

w/o the invitation of a state governor or state legislature? can only think of one post ww2 other than trump. is not anywhere near as common as you suggest. you may be using "sic" rather loose and ignore the state invite aspect is kinda disingenuous. heck, you can look at how nixon used troops compared to trump in spite o' the vietnam protests at the Capitol and pentagon. massive protests and a bunch o' hippies managed to break into the pentagon and were escorted out o' the building. compare to lafyette park or portland? 

pre ww2 and excluding such obvious exceptions as war of 1812 and civil war? george washington did so with the whiskey rebellion. shay's rebellion happened pre Constitution but post articles of confederation. again, w/o a state invite, or time o' war is frightful uncommon. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps we weren't gonna mention, but might as well. eisenhower is the one post ww2 example we would concede. in 1957 the US President did genuine sic fed troops on citizenry w/o state approval. enforcement of brown v. board

OK the thing that differentiates then was state approval. The reason I limited it to the 20th century is by that time there were a few territories. The role of the federal government in a territory versus a state were different. The whiskey rebellion for example Pennsylvania was a state but the land around Pittsburgh was not really part of Pennsylvania. IIRC. To be honest my knowledge of US history from 1860 on is pretty strong. Before that it’s pretty spotty. Except for the parts about abolition and slavery.

Edited by Guard Dog

"What can't be changed must be endured"

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

 So what is the better system going in your opinion if the US is a " sick " society ?

If I had the answer to that, i would run for the presidency....

(in some country somewhere, as I don't qualify for US president, not being born there). I can observe a problem, not necessarily come up with a viable solution. I just don't think an increase in police brutality to crush dissent and unrest is the way forward. It will only make society implode eventually. Like the housing bubbles you know? Each crash will become worse than the next until someone realizes this current economic model doesn't work in a sustainable way ;)

 

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am gonna admit to being conflicted 'bout a few indian examples as well as eisenhower. 

wasn't 'til 1924 that the Courts and Congress recognized citizenship o' native people. also, all indian land is actual fed land unless it is private owned. domestic dependent nation fiction.

and the eisenhower thing is tough. is one reason why Gromnir is perhaps the only aclu attorney we know (albeit only brief and and in spite being a conservative) who public questioned brown. the Court had no enforcement power or experience with formulating a busing program. so when states said no to brown, there were no obvious way to compel compliance.  eisenhower is faced with a hard choice. allow states to flout a Court decision? simultaneous, what authority were there for fed troops to enforce brown compliance at state schools? brown, while the moral and right call, set off a decade o' increased racial tensions. the civil rights acts of the mid 60s fixed the problems brown created. 

am admiring the Court for doing the right thing in brown, but the law was questionable and the truth is it resulted in an increase in segregationist policies in the south for many years. eisenhower's use o' troops just made the whole situation more unpalatable to southerners who had previous to brown been trending post ww2 towards more inclusive policies. eisenhower, perhaps justifiably, radicalized the mob. tough call.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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18 minutes ago, Gorth said:

ILike the housing bubbles you know? Each crash will become worse than the next until someone realizes this current economic model doesn't work in a sustainable way ;)

 

Not to nitpick but your specific example are not the product of an economic model. Rather is is the product of and inept attempt to manipulate an economic system for the purposes of political gain or to solve some perceived social ill (which amounts to the same thing really)

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

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