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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

It's a matter of accountability, and also a matter that the pandemic's narrative was driven politically and spwcifically denied narrative about a lab leak etc to harm Trumps chances of re-ellection. 

Imagine if the narrative was, that Trump was right about China's fault and that it was a bio-engineered agent, which harmed lives of american citizens  and he was right going strong arm in relation with them. 

You might have seen a vastly different political labdscape throughout the 2020-2021

Okay I see your argument but how much did Trumps view of the origin of the virus hurt his reelection campaign?

What did hurt his reelection was the mismanagement of the pandemic within the USA ....not so much the real and unfair misinformation from his campaign

And I support Trumps criticism of China on most issues and the trade war....but I dont support how he blamed the spread of the virus within the USA on China. That was because of failed policy 

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But Gorthfuscious we getting distracted by this debate in the sense why spend resources and time on something that is irrelevant and we will never be able to confirm

I say irrelevant because the virus came from China irrespective  if it came from a lab or the Wuhan animal market.

And I say we will never be able to confirm the truth because the CCP has already started denying it came from China and they will always restrict full access to their labs and obfuscate pertinent virus source  information anyway?

All that matters is stopping the pandemic globally and getting vaccines to everyone

I am sorry ZeroHedge is aggrieved but this is just theater to me and doesnt matter to the real objective of ending the pandemic 

Don't underestimate the PR damage and the propaganda value. Both are currencies that means a lot to the Beijing leadership and countries have been "preemptively" bombed before when doing things that poses a significant threat, whether nuclear or chemical weapons. Only few countries in the world have biological weapon capability (China and the US being two of them). I don't think Russia and the US would nuke Wuhan or similar if they locate more of those bio weapon facilities, but as said, don't underestimate XI going all apoplectic and red faced (complete with sweat drops and burst veins) if it comes out that China was just being careless with one of their test subjects. Not to mention the lawsuits and compensation claims they would subject to (not that they would pay, but Xi is a nationalist and ridiculing his country is something he reacts very badly to)

 

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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4 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Don't underestimate the PR damage and the propaganda value. Both are currencies that means a lot to the Beijing leadership and countries have been "preemptively" bombed before when doing things that poses a significant threat, whether nuclear or chemical weapons. Only few countries in the world have biological weapon capability (China and the US being two of them). I don't think Russia and the US would nuke Wuhan or similar if they locate more of those bio weapon facilities, but as said, don't underestimate XI going all apoplectic and red faced (complete with sweat drops and burst veins) if it comes out that China was just being careless with one of their test subjects. Not to mention the lawsuits and compensation claims they would subject to (not that they would pay, but Xi is a nationalist and ridiculing his country is something he reacts very badly to)

 

You have raised a very concerning point which never occurred to me because I have been focusing on ending the pandemic globally , are you saying its not so much about the virus origins  but rather the level of advancement the CCP have made in Biological research so then the origin of the virus in a lab  does matter ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Okay I see your argument but how much did Trumps view of the origin of the virus hurt his reelection campaign?

What did hurt his reelection was the mismanagement of the pandemic within the USA ....not so much the real and unfair misinformation from his campaign

And I support Trumps criticism of China on most issues and the trade war....but I dont support how he blamed the spread of the virus within the USA on China. That was because of failed policy 

Narrative matters, it would be spinned as a foreign hostile action against america's citizens and economy. That people on purpose concealed information, including misinformation from WHO on the origin, and various chinese money funded think tanks, etc.  

 

Remember that it was a close call in elections and mostly due to issues created by covid. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

are you saying its not so much about the virus origins  but rather the level of advancement the CCP have made in Biological research so then the origin of the virus in a lab  does matter ?

Well, yes and no. More about calling them out on it and holding them accountable for the allegorical playing with fire when doing biological weapon research. As much as they were mortal enemies at some point, even the Soviets and the US *eventually* realized the same as my old training officers in the civil defense, if you thought chemical and nuclear warfare was bad, it's nothing compared to biological warfare. The only component of 'abc'  (atomic, biological and chemical) there was no provision for in the training, because, the 'b' type warfare means we're all ****ed, friend and foe, nothing you can do to protect a population in any way. I know the Soviets and the US never fully dismantled their biological weapon research, but they kept it low profile in the big picture.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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4 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Well, yes and no. More about calling them out on it and holding them accountable for the allegorical playing with fire when doing biological weapon research. As much as they were mortal enemies at some point, even the Soviets and the US *eventually* realized the same as my old training officers in the civil defense, if you thought chemical and nuclear warfare was bad, it's nothing compared to biological warfare. The only component of 'abc'  (atomic, biological and chemical) there was no provision for in the training, because, the 'b' type warfare means we're all ****ed, friend and foe, nothing you can do to protect a population in any way. I know the Soviets and the US never fully dismantled their biological weapon research, but they kept it low profile in the big picture.

I cannot agree more with the view that Biological warfare  really needs to be outlawed globally

But I was thinking about something? What is the difference, around possible unintended  outbreaks,  between scientific and ongoing research into the legitimate understanding of viruses and endeavors to find vaccines for certain diseases, like HIV, and a  company developing a virus for warfare? So in other words I am sure a virus can still be accidently released on the world with normal virus research and not just for WMD 

The risk seems similar to me?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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16 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

The risk seems similar to me?

True. And the peaceful use of nuclear power has caused almost as much death and destruction as Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

But ask yourself, who is running the facilities and what could their motivations be for running them? Could be dual purpose. Same as Iran and it's nuclear power project, also a dual purpose endeavor, energy and nuclear weapons.

What doesn't help is the complete denial and shutdown of any attempt at allowing independent verification of their claims. It could be like Iraq back in the day, they really didn't have chemical weapons, but short of invading and digging up every possible site (and looking stupid with your hands empty), the complete lack of trust in the Beijing government means they will never get the benefit of the doubt. I suspect dual purposes were the case, but since senior UN personal was not allowed anywhere near the facilities, I obvious know even less facts.

For someone with nothing to hide, they sure put a *lot* of effort into hiding it.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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4 minutes ago, Gorth said:

True. And the peaceful use of nuclear power has caused almost as much death and destruction as Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

But ask yourself, who is running the facilities and what could their motivations be for running them? Could be dual purpose. Same as Iran and it's nuclear power project, also a dual purpose endeavor, energy and nuclear weapons.

What doesn't help is the complete denial and shutdown of any attempt at allowing independent verification of their claims. It could be like Iraq back in the day, they really didn't have chemical weapons, but short of invading and digging up every possible site (and looking stupid with your hands empty), the complete lack of trust in the Beijing government means they will never get the benefit of the doubt. I suspect dual purposes were the case, but since senior UN personal was not allowed anywhere near the facilities, I obvious know even less facts.

For someone with nothing to hide, they sure put a *lot* of effort into hiding it.

Good points raised and you right Nuclear  usage for legitimate purposes has also had some bad consequences so we  shouldnt " throw the baby out with the bath water " on Biological research for positive reasons like vaccines 

You make a convincing argument here Gorthfuscious around the CCP , very logical and reasonable 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Thought the narrative was that Trump messed up the handling of the pandemic, regardless of its origin. 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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6 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Thought the narrative was that Trump messed up the handling of the pandemic, regardless of its origin. 

Yes thats abosolutely the truth, this  other discussion is about something linked  to that election but it has its own optics and reality in the world as far as geopolitics are concerned 

So Trump mishandled the pandemic badly, that is the facts on the ground and he  questioned the viruses origin

But the origin can be questioned, I still think it comes from the bats or other animals. Its has been basically proven other viruses like Ebola come from bats and so do the other viruses that have their origin in China like SARS and Avian Flu 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Okay I see your argument but how much did Trumps view of the origin of the virus hurt his reelection campaign?

What did hurt his reelection was the mismanagement of the pandemic within the USA ....not so much the real and unfair misinformation from his campaign

And I support Trumps criticism of China on most issues and the trade war....but I dont support how he blamed the spread of the virus within the USA on China. That was because of failed policy 

is just another conspiracy theory from dp and zerohedge. the absence o' proof is what drives the narrative o' deflection. 

that said, bruce is correct that it don't matter. trump's response to the pandemic were all wrong 'ccording to a majority o' voters and the china stuff did nothing save solidify the nativism o' the trump base.  inevitably somebody will roll the tape where trump were praising china transparency regarding the virus and such don't help trump with independents, educated white women and others who helped make 2020 a loss for trump. china is not a good topic for trump in general 'cause every time there is an uyghur story, some helpful reporter from ap or axios will include links to trump support o' xi and his indifference to the plight o' those persons in the reeducation camps. trump "kung flu" bs gets mentioned every time some rando korean american gets attacked by an idiot in florida or texas...  retribution for the pandemic, a pandemic which were never a big deal 'ccording to trump and nobody would talk about the virus after the election anyhow, right? 

find proof that the virus did indeed escape from the wuhan facility? wouldn't shock us at all, but is also nothing more than conjecture the virus were lab created/enhanced, which is exact what makes the conspiracy theory appealing to folks like dp. as long as the conspiracy theory can't be disproved (HA!) it will be used by zerohedge and trump and the typical rogue's gallery o' nogoodnicks who thrive on deflection. but bruce is correct-- doesn't matter. still ~600k dead americans and is not hard to find science folks say the deaths beyond the first 100k is disproportionate the fault o' trump's incompetent response. make the trump base feel like their nativism were justified won't bring back independents and educated white women in enough numbers to make any kinda difference.

heck, dp is kinda missing the point o' the conspiracy theory anyways. virus origin theories is not being promoted to change the narrative on china. the point is to undermine trust in medical experts and the media. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

is just another conspiracy theory from dp and zerohedge. the absence o' proof is what drives the narrative o' deflection. 

that said, bruce is correct that it don't matter. trump's response to the pandemic were all wrong 'ccording to a majority o' voters and the china stuff did nothing save solidify the nativism o' the trump base.  inevitably somebody will roll the tape where trump were praising china transparency regarding the virus and such don't help trump with independents, educated white women and others who helped make 2020 a loss for trump. china is not a good topic for trump in general 'cause every time there is an uyghur story, some helpful reporter from ap or axios will include links to trump support o' xi and his indifference to the plight o' those the uyghurs. trump "kung flu" bs gets mentioned every time some rando korean american gets attacked by an idiot in florida or texas...  retribution for the pandemic, a pandemic which were never a big deal 'ccording to trump and nobody would talk about the virus after the election anyhow, right? 

find proof that the virus did indeed escape from the wuhan facility? wouldn't shock us at all, but is also nothing more than conjecture the virus were lab created/enhanced, which is exact what makes the conspiracy theory appealing to folks like dp. as long as the conspiracy theory can't be disproved (HA!) it will be used by zerohedge and trump and the typical rogue's gallery o' nogoodnicks who thrive on deflection. but bruce is correct-- doesn't matter. still ~600k dead americans and is not hard to find science folks say the deaths beyond the first 100k is disproportionate the fault o' trump's incompetent response. make the trump base feel like their nativism were justified won't bring back independents and educated white women in enough numbers to make any kinda difference.

heck, dp is kinda missing the point o' the conspiracy theory anyways. virus origin theories is not being promoted to change the narrative on china. the point is to undermine trust in medical experts and the media. 

HA! Good Fun!

It's conspiracy until proven true 😉

 

I do believe that 2020 would look differently, as the blame and anger would have a nice target to be pointed at, and could be used for dealing with the virus outcomes (say the narrative spin  would be: we were told it was a natural occuring, but we should have treated is as a bio-weapon, hence more deaths) 

I think you are conjuring too many views on me, which I do not have. 

I work with data and make money out of it.

Truth does not care about beliefs, behaviors do. 

 

Edited by Darkpriest
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3 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

is just another conspiracy theory from dp and zerohedge. the absence o' proof is what drives the narrative o' deflection. 

that said, bruce is correct that it don't matter. trump's response to the pandemic were all wrong 'ccording to a majority o' voters and the china stuff did nothing save solidify the nativism o' the trump base.  inevitably somebody will roll the tape where trump were praising china transparency regarding the virus and such don't help trump with independents, educated white women and others who helped make 2020 a loss for trump. china is not a good topic for trump in general 'cause every time there is an uyghur story, some helpful reporter from ap or axios will include links to trump support o' xi and his indifference to the plight o' those the uyghurs. trump "kung flu" bs gets mentioned every time some rando korean american gets attacked by an idiot in florida or texas...  retribution for the pandemic, a pandemic which were never a big deal 'ccording to trump and nobody would talk about the virus after the election anyhow, right? 

find proof that the virus did indeed escape from the wuhan facility? wouldn't shock us at all, but is also nothing more than conjecture the virus were lab created/enhanced, which is exact what makes the conspiracy theory appealing to folks like dp. as long as the conspiracy theory can't be disproved (HA!) it will be used by zerohedge and trump and the typical rogue's gallery o' nogoodnicks who thrive on deflection. but bruce is correct-- doesn't matter. still ~600k dead americans and is not hard to find science folks say the deaths beyond the first 100k is disproportionate the fault o' trump's incompetent response. make the trump base feel like their nativism were justified won't bring back independents and educated white women in enough numbers to make any kinda difference.

heck, dp is kinda missing the point o' the conspiracy theory anyways. virus origin theories is not being promoted to change the narrative on china. the point is to undermine trust in medical experts and the media. 

HA! Good Fun!

You make some good points, particularly around what you said below

 " trump were praising china transparency regarding the virus and such don't help trump with independents, educated white women and others who helped make 2020 a loss for trump "

You cant convincingly   argue the media criticism about the virus origin coming from a lab  or rather FB banning this discussion added to his defeat because he lost because he failed to attract enough of the demographics you mentioned. We know this because Trump did get even more votes than last election but he still lost ....and I would argue the irrefutable mishandling of the virus was the primary cause of this ....not a debate about the narrative of the virus 

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34572869/trump-2020-support-failure-self-government/

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Just now, Darkpriest said:

It's conspiracy until proven true 😉

 

nope. is conspiracy. period. if you had evidence, then it wouldn't be conspiracy.

btw, we work with facts and evidence, and we recognize when people is ignoring the need for such.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Basically they are barring direct flight from central Europe to Moscow, which are currently almost non-existent, as almost all other flights that enter in Russian air space don't go over Belarus

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2 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Basically they are barring direct flight from central Europe to Moscow, which are currently almost non-existent, as almost all other flights that enter in Russian air space don't go over Belarus

Yes Elerond and I hope you supporting this, Lukashenko only did what he did with the agreement of Putin. So Russia was also part of the decision 

Their have to be consequences for what he did, it was absolutely criminal and outrageous what Belarus  did to force that plane to land to arrest one journalist who was critical of the current dictatorship 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Diehard Trumpers still see the pandemic and mask wearing as BS.

The soft, socially conservative authoritarianism of the Trump camp is confusing as all Hell, and nothing it about it is makes sense.  It just sounds like some sort of bizzare Reagan inspired antithesis to how actual authoritarian governments handled the pandemic, and that is, quite well!  As much as we may dislike China, they definitely handled it better than Trump did;  temporary sacrifice of freedoms to contain the virus and then back to normal.

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

nope. is conspiracy. period. if you had evidence, then it wouldn't be conspiracy.

btw, we work with facts and evidence, and we recognize when people is ignoring the need for such.

HA! Good Fun!

I assume you know the term circumstantial evidence or even cases where something was declared true, even without a direct evidence. 

You know full well, that cases such as this, would never see a direct evidence (or more like with probabilities lower than getting hit by a killer asteroid) , however you can map out actions, events, numbers and apply logical alogirthms with various probabilities to create plausible scenarios from which one can be considered truth. (although it's always better to have hard 'atrifacts'). 

Can you prove beyond any doubt that is what not a lab leak? 

Can you prove beyond any doubt that it was a lab leak? 

In both cases the answer is (currently) a firm NO. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

[...] it was absolutely criminal and outrageous what Belarus  did to force that plane to land to arrest one journalist who was critical of the current dictatorship 

Protasevich is not Khashoggi.
Not that it makes the act any less heavy-handed, but he was nabbed over the news-site he run not some criticism.
I bet hundreds of names are being extracted from him and his hardware at this very moment.

Edited by pmp10
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26 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Can you prove beyond any doubt that is what not a lab leak? 

Can you prove beyond any doubt that it was a lab leak? 

In both cases the answer is (currently) a firm NO. 

am losing patience. those is not equal. you make fundamental correlation v. causation fails and then demand absolute disprove of a negative to refute a conspiracy theory? what?

the appeal o' conspiracy is such explanations provide simple and complete answers when there is a paucity o' evidence. you mistake the absence o' evidence as support for conspiracy rather than recognizing such lack o' evidence is crippling.

circumstantial evidence is not compelling unless you are able to show a meaningful causal link AND your evidence (collective) is compelling enough that it exceeds some meaningful burden of proof, but you don't care 'bout such showings. you ignore causal and you somehow mistake absence o' evidence as the proof which makes conspiracy more likely until disproven.

whatever data crunching you do for a living, you is doing in spite o' some basic misunderstandings 'bout evidence and proof... or you are an economist.

A ‪‎physicist, an ‪‎engineer and an ‪‎economist are stranded in the desert. They are hungry. Suddenly, they find a can of corn. They want to open it, but how?
The physicist says: “Let’s start a fire and place the can inside the flames. It will explode and then we will all be able to eat”.
“Are you crazy?” says the engineer. “All the corn will burn and scatter, and we’ll have nothing. We should use a metal wire, attach it to a base, push it and crack the can open.”
“Both of you are wrong!” states the economist. “Where the hell do we find a metal wire in the desert?! The solution is simple: ASSUME we have a can opener”… 

HA! Good Fun!

 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Deep-rooted racism, discrimination permeate US military

I cannot speak for anyone’s experience other than my own. And I only served in one branch not all of them. But I’ve been hearing this a lot and I have to say it sounds like a cart full of horses—t. Yes the soldier at the center of the story was treated poorly. But I don’t know if it is systemic racism or systemic poor discipline. Military discipline exist for a reason. In the moment you start letting it slip for the little things you segue into the bigger things like this. All I can say is it will be inconceivable for her to be treated in this fashion in the Marines. 
 

The other Marines who participate on this board may have had different experiences than I did. But if an enlisted men treated an officer the way she was treated she would not have to write him up for NJP. There would be a small platoon of NCOs ready to do it for her.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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Sounds like a huge discipline problem, being "uncomfortable" taking orders from her or refusing to salute. 

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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