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Hi,

For a solo fighter/chanter run, isn't bellower a really obvious subclass choice? I've seen many preferences for Troubadour, but the -50% chant radius downside of a Bellower is meaningless for a solo character. How well does a bellower play?

Secondly, does the empower PL boost stack with the bellower PL boost? So if I had say 3 phrases and then chose to empower an invocation, would that be a +8PL boost? That could be a bit tasty if so...

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I wouldn't say it's meaningless because there are offensive chants which might hit less enemies if the radius is smaller - but generally it's surely less of an issue without a party. Just keep in mind that this is not the only drawback: a Bellower will lose all remaining phrases after an invocation, too. 

The PL bonus from phrases does stack with all other PL bonuses, including Empower. Sasha's Singing Scimitar + Empower + Bellower is a nice combo to unleash a very powerful invocation 1/encounter.

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a big thing is that a bellower uses up all their phrases per invocation. so there's still a "downside" depending on how you define it. (edit: darn, ninja-ed by boeroer) whereas i would consider the troubadour virtually downside free due to how much versatility it has.

 

also important to note that invocations aren't the end-all, be-all. troubadour is strong because you can do some insane things with 3s chants (in addition to supercharging your invocation rate).

 

edit: i never really considered the -50% chant radius that big of a downside since you can work with the positioning a bit more carefully. in the bellower vs troubadour competition it really does just boil down to how much swiss-army-knife utility a troubadour has, which is much more valuable when you don't have companions. don't get me wrong, i really like bellower, but for solo the troubadour really does shine.

Edited by thelee
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40 minutes ago, Jaheiras Witness said:

So if I had say 3 phrases and then chose to empower an invocation, would that be a +8PL boost? That could be a bit tasty if so...

keep in mind that the bellower chant boost is a temporary buff that is triggered when you start an invocation, versus empower which is like attached to the ability you empower for its entire length. most of the time it doesn't matter, but for eld nary's invocation (the bouncing tornado) the ability is way too slow to get mileage out of the bellower boost and an empower. but for stuff like summons (which only check PL at creation) or fast effects like revenge or paralyze, it's fine. (though it does mean with poor intellect and poor dex, you could actualy run out of the bellower's PL buff before a slow invocation is even cast)

 

9 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Sasha's Singing Scimitar + Empower + Bellower is a nice combo to unleash a very powerful invocation 1/encounter.

if you don't care about resting a lot, the upgrade that refreshes all your phrases is a beast with bellower, since you can start off with a full-phrase invocation, work your way up to a revenge that you empower (only 3 phrases and you get +8 PL to it, plus empower passive boosts) to get you up to full blast with another full-phrase invocation. if you also have least unstable coil you can really go full-hog, since that empowered revenge will all but surely give you a brilliant inspiration as well since each bolt is considered a separate trigger for least unstable coil.

Edited by thelee
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12 minutes ago, thelee said:

since each bolt is considered a separate trigger for least unstable coil.

🤯 each day, something new to learn. And I just posted my Cantor build without trying this out.

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That works with several abilites. For example Meteor Storm, Great Maelstrom, Missile Salvo... even Avenging Storm (every Lightning counts as one spell).

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1 hour ago, thelee said:

a big thing is that a bellower uses up all their phrases per invocation. so there's still a "downside" depending on how you define it. (edit: darn, ninja-ed by boeroer) whereas i would consider the troubadour virtually downside free due to how much versatility it has.

 

also important to note that invocations aren't the end-all, be-all. troubadour is strong because you can do some insane things with 3s chants (in addition to supercharging your invocation rate).

 

edit: i never really considered the -50% chant radius that big of a downside since you can work with the positioning a bit more carefully. in the bellower vs troubadour competition it really does just boil down to how much swiss-army-knife utility a troubadour has, which is much more valuable when you don't have companions. don't get me wrong, i really like bellower, but for solo the troubadour really does shine.

What can you do with 3 second chants with no linger other than get fast invocations?

The way I'm seeing Troubadour is that it's either longer linger or brisk recitation, you have to choose one. And then you need +1 phrase to invoke. So if you are trying to build a Troubadour around invocations with brisk recitation on, you have the following situation:

Troubadour = invocation every 12 seconds (assuming 4 phrase minimum, halved by Brisk) with no linger on phrases

Bellower = invocation every 18 seconds @ +3PL, while retaining some linger on phrases

That I think is what it ultimately boils down to choosing between.

 

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Well as you said: the Troubadour not only has Brisk Recitation (3 sec chant, no linger) but also +50% linger time when he's not using Brisk Recitation which makes him the only chanter who can keep up two parallel phrases without heavy stacking of INT. 

You don't have to choose between short phrases or long linger.

You can compose some chant which is best used with Brisk Recitation (e.g. Many Lives Pass By, combined with summoning Ancient Weapons real quick) or a chant which is better with long linger time (e.g. +10 to Reflex and +10 to Will and Fortitude) and switch between those.

So a Troubadour can be very versatile. For solo I find that more useful than the +PL bonus of the Bellower. 

Also, the Champion invocation, paired with 3 sec-reappliance of offensive chants can turn the Troubadour into an AoE-auto-interrupt monster. 

 

Edited by Boeroer

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3 hours ago, Jaheiras Witness said:

What can you do with 3 second chants with no linger other than get fast invocations?

some chants are great just from being applied, in addition to (or even regardless of) their duration. the resistance chants are like this - every time they are applied, they immediately resist down effects that already exist. with brisk recitation, 6s is all you need to clear away all of a target affliction (12s for non-troub).

similarly, "thick grew their tongues" is less important the duration, but the initial application on an enemy immediately clears all concentration. on tough baddies you want to interrupt, getting 2x the concentration-clearing attempts in the same time is great.

The damage shield chant only regenerates its shield upon reapplication - once its depleted, the hypothetical remaining duration doesn't do anything. With Brisk Recitation, every 3s, you get a 10pt shield every 3s. This can be significantly more effective than a typical 6s+linger. (I use the example of Hauane O Whe where a troubadour using just this chant can carry the entire party because it lets you completely ignore a duration-less raw damage lash that the megaboss can create that does slightly less than 10 damage every 3s.)

The chant that summons skeletons doesn't actually use normal chant/linger mechanics. The summoned skeletons have a base duration of 10s + intellect bonuses. A troubadour can summon a cannon fodder army with no downside here, since the "linger" is not actually a thing.

 

edit: there's also some niche cases as well. I have a build that relies on Energized to interrupt enemies en masse. I picked a Skald for that build, but also suggested a Troubadour since a Troubadour with an offensive chant on Brisk Recitation will get an interrupt chance every 3s versus every 6 for a skald. edit2 - oops ninja'ed by boeroer on this point

Edited by thelee
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Did you use summons? Those make a huge difference in solo fights. Even as a Bellower they are not bad because their duration will be so much longer with the PL boosts. 

The upgraded Ancient Weapons and also the Dragon summon are very good. The Dragon has so much HP it can tank most stuff for its whole summoning duration. Its abilites are also very good. Only its autoattacks suck.

On top of this you can chant Many Lives Pass By which will pop out a skeleton that doesn't count towards the summoning limit. As Troubadour you can call one every 3 secs and create a small horde. They die quickly but are excellent distractions from the "real" summons and yourself. 

Imo you can't solo a SC Chanter well with only offensive invocations. Summons make it much easier. 

Edited by Boeroer

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Bellower is only really good as single class solo (obviously it's not bad as multiclass, others are just better).

Overall as everyone stated Troubadour is the best multiclass.

The skald however can hold their own in a lategame scenario where you are willing to abuse Scordeo's Blade Cascade.

As a chanter/priest chanter/wizard you can extend it with their kit, as a chanter/fighter as op wants to play you'd have to resort to Strand of favour cheese which is frowned upon as "cheating" by some players.

Either way a skald with perma Blade Cascade setting AI to spam Her Revenge Swept Across the Land is even stronger than a Troubadour, especially if you combine it with up to 200% damage lash from Deltro's helm, which can also be abused with strand.

Troubadour will definitely have more casts of her revenge, which is overall the strongest invocation, excluding megabosses where weapons are generally stronger especially with scordeos or ranged weapon kiting with Many lives pass by.

Bellower only really shines with Eld Nary's Curse, which only a sc chanter can get, together with Sasha's Her Tears cana lso be a good invocation for Bellower tho if you really wanna multiclass.

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I go with troubadour and single class, then is better bellower as pure chanter? 

I play on veteran, I use summons and so on obviously, but I've started doing ship contracts and even taking out several levels, I fews little standing, as my character eats damage and fews seconds, going with 10 constitution, and with big shield and heavy armor.... And I have active life regeneration. 

Somewhere in there will be the overpowah combination of equipment and skills, but seeing certain combats and areas with this fragility makes you shiver. xDD.

Previously I played with Paladin/chanter and Chanter/fighter but it was too easy and flat, and I felt like playing with a pure chanter.

Should I limit myself to tanking 0 and casting summons in a loop from Austria, and not do naval contracts until level 17/20?

 

 

Edited by Abuachumi
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"Casting summons in a loop from Austria" actually was the name of my second album when I was performing as counter tenor from Vienna. 😆

You cannot tank very well with a single class chanter imo. Health regeneration is not worth much if you get hit with full penetration. A Herald can have higher AR and defenses so he often only suffers from severely underpenetrating grazes which are easy to recover from with Ancient Memory etc. A Chanter neither has enormous defense buffs nor universal AR bonuses. You need summons do keep enemies busy and not tank yourself imo.

Skeletons from Ancient Brittle Bones are crappy but they have engagement and thus stop attackers on the spot (if you didn't choose to remove "stop on engagement" in the game options). While they are dying you should have enough time to summon other stuff. And then also get some other invocations off in between. 

You can even kill your own skeletons (Ancient Brittle Bones or Many Lives Pass By) with Grave Calling/Chilling Grave in order to produce a foe-only Chillfog which not only helps with its blinding but also procs the other weapon effects like the paralyze which is very potent. 

I personally like Troubadour pretty much just because Many Lives Pass By will produce a skeleton every 3 secs which is great against tough single foes and because you can crit-interrupt every 3 secs with the Champion invocation + offensive chant which is good against lots of weaker enemies.

I don't use Ancient Memory much. It's nice in a party and when you can stack more spruces of regeneration - but not really great for a solo SC Chanter imo. Here it's more about preventing damage then healing it (for me).

1 hour ago, Raven Darkholme said:

as a chanter/fighter as op wants to play you'd have to resort to Strand of favour cheese which is frowned upon as "cheating" by some players.

You carried this over from another thread and your choice of words suggests that there are hurt feelings.

There was and is not need for that. As was stated several times "frowing upon" was not the goal of that discussion - some players were simply saying (I'll paraphrase): "It's not for me personally because it feels like cheating to me - but you should play how you like and have fun while doing so".

If using the Strand of Favor trick gives you fun then by all means "go forth now Watcher". :)

I would also mention it even if I won't use it myself - because that info is useful and the people asking for info can decide whether they want to use cheesy tactics or not themselves. 

Another cheesy tactic for a solo character (if you can't outheal the damage you're receiving): equip Lethandria's Devotion in both weapon setups (use the copy function), pause the game and then switch from weapon set 1 to 2 and back to 1 and so on. You will get a healing tick every time you switch even during pause. Continue playing with full health. Repeat when necessary.

I personally wouldn't build my char around that - but if it helps me mastering a few particularly frustrating encounters: why not?

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

"Casting summons in a loop from Austria" actually was the name of my second album when I was performing as counter tenor from Vienna. 😆

You cannot tank very well with a single class chanter imo. Health regeneration is not worth much if you get hit with full penetration. A Herald can have higher AR and defenses so he often only suffers from severely underpenetrating grazes which are easy to recover from with Ancient Memory etc. A Chanter neither has enormous defense buffs nor universal AR bonuses. You need summons do keep enemies busy and not tank yourself imo.

Skeletons from Ancient Brittle Bones are crappy but they have engagement and thus stop attackers on the spot (if you didn't choose to remove "stop on engagement" in the game options). While they are dying you should have enough time to summon other stuff. And then also get some other invocations off in between. 

You can even kill your own skeletons (Ancient Brittle Bones or Many Lives Pass By) with Grave Calling/Chilling Grave in order to produce a foe-only Chillfog which not only helps with its blinding but also procs the other weapon effects like the paralyze which is very potent. 

I personally like Troubadour pretty much just because Many Lives Pass By will produce a skeleton every 3 secs which is great against tough single foes and because you can crit-interrupt every 3 secs with the Champion invocation + offensive chant which is good against lots of weaker enemies.

I don't use Ancient Memory much. It's nice in a party and when you can stack more spruces of regeneration - but not really great for a solo SC Chanter imo. Here it's more about preventing damage then healing it (for me).

 

That's the feeling I'm getting, that it's better to avoid harm than to worry about healing. It's like the person who sells his car to buy petrol. I heal myself 1 by 1, and they take away 15 by 15... Mathematics is exact. 

The issue is how to approach combat in certain limit situations, like naval contracts, certain bosses, certain zones .... where the casting time is not very far, and we are talking about 15/20 vs me (in the case of ships) because I am paper, and it stresses me out xDDD. It also influences that I feel dirty spamming summons, like it's an exploit, but it's really my character's role isn't it? 

In equipment at the beginning then the best thing is to have a ranged weapon while summoning and summoning in a loop? gun and shield if necessary, to have a basic protection. For this modus operandi, better bellower, beckoner or troubadour?

 

Edited by Abuachumi
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2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

 

You carried this over from another thread and your choice of words suggests that there are hurt feelings.

 

This is not about hurt feelings.

This is about me giving useful information (whether op wants to use it or not, or even already knows about it) and me not wanting to deal with a stupid argument every single time.

You'd be surprised how many people not only don't know about this, but also find the info useful.

But if theres gonna be a debate everytime I mention this I might as well try and stop it before it begins.

1 hour ago, Abuachumi said:

That's the feeling I'm getting, that it's better to avoid harm than to worry about healing. It's like the person who sells his car to buy petrol. I heal myself 1 by 1, and they take away 15 by 15... Mathematics is exact. 

The issue is how to approach combat in certain limit situations, like naval contracts, certain bosses, certain zones .... where the casting time is not very far, and we are talking about 15/20 vs me (in the case of ships) because I am paper, and it stresses me out xDDD. It also influences that I feel dirty spamming summons, like it's an exploit, but it's really my character's role isn't it? 

In equipment at the beginning then the best thing is to have a ranged weapon while summoning and summoning in a loop? gun and shield if necessary, to have a basic protection. For this modus operandi, better bellower, beckoner or troubadour?

 

In my opinion For solo single class chanters you don't wanna use invocations as much as a multiclass or with a party.

Many lives chant is your "tank" and it disappears if you use an invocation.

Personally I would always use Strand of favor because Single class solo chanter isn't very strong compared to priests, fighters and wizards and even paladins.

(this is the main reason I personally use it in the first place to play interesting non meta classes)

But for people who absolutely don't want to use it I would definitely go either Bellower or troubadour (I would not say Bellower is better than Troubadour, my point was more that Bellower imo is better suited for single class, never meant it was the best single class chanter) and only use invocations when you can kill a couple of enemies with it.

ofc IF you go Bellower single class you can nuke  A LOT of enemies at the start of a ship fight with empowered sashas Eld Narys curse.

But in general you want to have the small skellies from many lives up to tank for you and attack from range or if you can't avoid close combat kill them with grave calling chill fog (your own skellies) which also paralyzes if you have both chilling and paralyzing upgrade.

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1 hour ago, Raven Darkholme said:

This is not about hurt feelings.

This is about me giving useful information (whether op wants to use it or not, or even already knows about it) and me not wanting to deal with a stupid argument every single time.

You'd be surprised how many people not only don't know about this, but also find the info useful.

But if theres gonna be a debate everytime I mention this I might as well try and stop it before it begins.

In my opinion For solo single class chanters you don't wanna use invocations as much as a multiclass or with a party.

Many lives chant is your "tank" and it disappears if you use an invocation.

Personally I would always use Strand of favor because Single class solo chanter isn't very strong compared to priests, fighters and wizards and even paladins.

(this is the main reason I personally use it in the first place to play interesting non meta classes)

But for people who absolutely don't want to use it I would definitely go either Bellower or troubadour (I would not say Bellower is better than Troubadour, my point was more that Bellower imo is better suited for single class, never meant it was the best single class chanter) and only use invocations when you can kill a couple of enemies with it.

ofc IF you go Bellower single class you can nuke  A LOT of enemies at the start of a ship fight with empowered sashas Eld Narys curse.

But in general you want to have the small skellies from many lives up to tank for you and attack from range or if you can't avoid close combat kill them with grave calling chill fog (your own skellies) which also paralyzes if you have both chilling and paralyzing upgrade.

What I've realized is that the most powerful classes are combining classes, right? All classes gain more than they lose by mixing with others.

In 1 the chanter was brutal by itself, or the archer, or the cipher... Here in my opinion it is much more beneficial to combine than pure classes.

By the way, the Cipher in 1 was great, here a pure cipher is unfeasible?

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54 minutes ago, Abuachumi said:

What I've realized is that the most powerful classes are combining classes, right? All classes gain more than they lose by mixing with others.

In 1 the chanter was brutal by itself, or the archer, or the cipher... Here in my opinion it is much more beneficial to combine than pure classes.

By the way, the Cipher in 1 was great, here a pure cipher is unfeasible?

That is mostly true but not always.

Single class Assassin is by far the strongest solo class in the game if you use all exploits the game allows, if not it is still very strong but a multiclass would arguably be stronger (for solo)

Single class monk is also very powerful, it is kinda the same deal as assassin tho, if you want an exploit free run a multiclass is likely better for solo.

Also multiclasses being stronger mainly applies to solo if you play with a party single class will be stronger for almost all classes with very few specific exceptions.

The cipher in 1 was mainly great (once again for solo) due to an exploit where an ability was not working as the description stated.

In Deadfire Single class cipher is ok but definitely in no scenario will it ever be better than multiclass. (for solo, in a party single class ciphers are great)

edit: also the only reason why multiclasses are so strong for solo specifically is because of how overpowered priests and wizards are (and to an extent fighter), if priest didn't have salvation of time and wizard didn't have wall of draining a lot of classes owuldn't automatically be better as multiclass, even tho there are some great multiclasses without priest or wizard but usually they have a fighter or monk in there.

Edited by Raven Darkholme
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55 minutes ago, Abuachumi said:

What I've realized is that the most powerful classes are combining classes, right? All classes gain more than they lose by mixing with others.

I don't think that's the right takeaway. SC Monks, just for example, are nuts. But more importantly, this conversation has been about solo characters and the classes that can beat the game comfortably solo are not necessarily the ones that are strongest in a party. One reason I prefer not to play games like this solo is because having a party allows you to build characters that excel at a certain role - and usually they will be much better at that role than they could be if they had to be built to take on the whole game by themselves. Single class characters usually shine in a party because they're intrinsically stronger in their specific niche (and will often be stronger at it than a multiclass could be). Multiclasses dominate solo because they need the tools to do everything themselves, and often rely on specific combos. 

edit: Raven ninja'd with similar comments

Edited by Jayd
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28 minutes ago, Jayd said:

I don't think that's the right takeaway. SC Monks, just for example, are nuts. But more importantly, this conversation has been about solo characters and the classes that can beat the game comfortably solo are not necessarily the ones that are strongest in a party. One reason I prefer not to play games like this solo is because having a party allows you to build characters that excel at a certain role - and usually they will be much better at that role than they could be if they had to be built to take on the whole game by themselves. Single class characters usually shine in a party because they're intrinsically stronger in their specific niche (and will often be stronger at it than a multiclass could be). Multiclasses dominate solo because they need the tools to do everything themselves, and often rely on specific combos. 

I fully agree. Going Solo obliges you to do certain things that, that going with more people, you don't fulfil that role or field, someone else will. 

In POE1 make SOLO almost every class, and I had no problem (in veteran, like in Deadfire) and it was veeeery easy, but here it's like the build isn't vital at all, and it's all about getting the perfect combination of items to unbalance the game. That's the impression I get, I could be wrong. And between finding said weapon or armour combinations, certain sections can be a Tim Burton movie.

I actually loved the monk in POE 1, but here I haven't managed to make one that performed. I created a character in a run in Solo, going for level 17, I tried it in the flooded caves (where it's full of skeletons) I got slaughtered and as I entered I came out without knowing what was wrong with the thing. I also have to say that I hate using healing potions, and I restrict them 95% of the time. 

 

Edited by Abuachumi
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2 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

This is not about hurt feelings.

This is about me giving useful information (whether op wants to use it or not, or even already knows about it) and me not wanting to deal with a stupid argument every single time.

You'd be surprised how many people not only don't know about this, but also find the info useful.

If you read my post again until the end you will see that I said basically the same: that it's good to share such info - even if oneself doesn't use it. 

Again: my point was about how you seem to perceive it as a personal attack when people say they don't like to use exploits. Which it is not. I just want you to understand that there's zero criticism towards you or whether you use exploits or not. It's just players' preferences and neither criticism about the info you shared nor your way of playing the game.

I wouldn't have said anything if you wouldn't have included that the Strand of Favor trick was "frowned upon" by some players. I mean even if that was the case: who cares what other players frown upon? :) It's your game and it's nice to share any info about it, even if some players won't use it.

But if you are actually not feeling attacked and all is fine: even better. It sounded differently but I might have misinterpreted that.

2 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

But if theres gonna be a debate everytime I mention this I might as well try and stop it before it begins.

There will be debate lots of times I guess. Just because so few people know what it actually is - and therefore there will have to be further explanation. And then again some people will say "no thanks that is too cheesy for my taste" and so on and so forth. But why bother?

I keep telling people how you can cheese charged items or how to export unique items to a new game or how Concelhaut's Draining Touch can be kept for the whole encounter - and nobody so far said "wow cool, I will use that". But I'll share it nevertheless. Maybe some day one player has fun with it - and it will be all worth it. ;)

 

 

Edited by Boeroer
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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

If you read my post again until the end you will see that I said basically the same: that it's good to share such info - even if oneself doesn't use it. 

Again: my point was about how you seem to perceive it as a personal attack when people say they don't like to use exploits. Which it is not. I just want you to understand that there's zero criticism towards you or whether you use exploits or not. It's just players' preferences and neither criticism about the info you shared nor your way of playing the game.

I wouldn't have said anything if you wouldn't have included that the Strand of Favor trick was "frowned upon" by some players. I mean even if that was the case: who cares what other players frown upon? :) It's your game and it's nice to share any info about it, even if some players won't use it.

But if you are actually not feeling attacked and all is fine: even better. It sounded differently but I might have misinterpreted that.

There will be debate lots of times I guess. Just because so few people know what it actually is - and therefore there will have to be further explanation. And then again some people will say "no thanks that is too cheesy for my taste" and so on and so forth. But why bother?

I keep telling people how you can cheese charged items or how to export unique items to a new game or how Concelhaut's Draining Touch can be kept for the whole encounter - and nobody so far said "wow cool, I will use that". But I'll share it nevertheless. Maybe some day one player has fun with it - and it will be all worth it. ;)

 

 

It was never directed at you (or even anyone personal) I straight up just wrote "beware there might be negative comments about this" (or something along those lines :P)

Personally If I play a class that is a wizard/or multiclassed with another "caster" whoeveer doesn't have access to monastic unarmed I will always use that draining touch cheese (and yes I learned it from you ;)).

I also sometimes use the charged items trick but it isn't super useful for most scenarios and I will always use it very specifically.

I don't export items cuz it requires you to recruit a party member. 😛

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59 minutes ago, Raven Darkholme said:

I will always use that draining touch cheese (and yes I learned it from you ;))

Iirc I learned that from @Powerotti. :)

*Elton John voice* 🎶 It's the circle of cheese 🎶
326d2f7efc71d393ec1863676a412c28.jpg

 

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I was one of the most vocal and first criticizers of this Strand of Favor exploit. I still frown upon it, but as others have said, its a single player game, so everyone can do whatever floats their boat.

Provide this information, sure. Maybe it will be useful to some. But I would appreciate it if you include a disclaimer that is is a bug exploit, so one should use it at their own discretion.

The way you initially provided that information sounded to me like it was perfectly normal to use it - or even intended.

And there is a VERY clear line between a bug exploit and mechanical exploit - for me. Both may reek of aged cheese, but the difference - for me - is fundamental. Of course, I don't mind putting a "mechanical exploit" disclaimer for in information about the other "broken" mechanics for clarity. In fact I do consider it good practice.

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