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The All Things Political Thread (One thread to rule them all and in the darkness bind them)


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28 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

yeah, that was ugly. the army lt did not immediate pull over and did not mindlessly follow all police instructions. cops reflexive see as a contempt of cop situation justifying force? 

serious needs to be an effort from cops to end contempt of cop /attitude test nonsense. until cops see as wrong, am not sure we are gonna see widespread change.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Seems like too much of a macho, warrior culture (I always get a kick out of dead cops getting "TIl Valhalla" from this one cop forum I haunt) for them to ever see it as wrong or that citizens they interact with are actual human beings.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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8 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Did anyone else get very specific instructions on what to do when you get pulled over by cops in school? They told us to do what the Army guy did and pull over in a well lit area if possible. They also told us to put our license, registration, and insurance on the dash so that we don't have to reach for anything and also to turn on the interior lights and put all the windows down.

Nah, I’m white. They just tell me to “slow it down sir. Have a good day” 😆

In all seriousness I’ve never been worried when interacting with cops.  Funny story though. I used to own a business calibrating test equipment in Fort Lauderdale. I was renting an office space in an industrial park in Dania Beach. I had T-shirts made up with the business logo on it and the logo was on a sign on the door. It’s about 11 o’clock at night and I’m trying to get into my office when a Dania Beach police officer pulls up. Asked to see my ID and asked me what I’m doing here. I pointed out my T-shirt and at the logo on the door and I said “you’re quite the detective aren’t you?” The cop of course did not find that funny but the confrontation with no further than that. Anyway I told that story to a black friend of mine a few years later and he laughed and said if he had tried to do that same thing a beating would have followed. And he’s probably right.

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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1 hour ago, Elerond said:

Russia:  "I'm a Marxist!"  Response: you are loony or westerner idiot and in worst case you end in hospital because people bet you up. 

Communist Party of Russia is still the 2nd largest voting bloc. And even in Russia people don't really like beating up grannies and veterans for their political views.

MellowCommander is of course completely wrong about it being regarded as right wing, it wanting the USSR restored is revanchist* which is left/ right agnostic and everything else about them is the standard left wing authoritarian you'd expect. The right wing revanchist group is Zhironovsky's 'liberals', the 3rd biggest faction, which basically wants the Russian Empire back instead of the USSR.

(The revanchism is why I'm always amused at western media descriptions of anti Putin protests where there are lots of soviet flags and Russian Imperial flags being waved- those waving them are exactly as inimical to the west as Putin is, more so in Zhiro's case even taking into account him overplaying it for effect. Still, better than events where western media outnumber Russians like some of the recent pro Navalny ones)

*where Revan's name comes from in KOTOR, for anyone who didn't already know. Originates from Frenchie butthurt about losing Elsass-Lothringen to some blokes with spikey helmets, where regaining those territories was political orthodoxy for left and right.

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15 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

it wanting the USSR restored is revanchist* which is left/ right agnostic

Nobody in the West sees it that way!  You just get blasted as a leftist by stupid hicks.

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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I guess in the purely technical/ historical sense wanting to restore the USSR is right wing since the original right wing denoted supporters of the French status quo ante, but I suspect you're not talking to many 18th century french political theorists. In the modern sense it might be little c conservative to support the USSR as a former soviet citizen, but it definitely isn't something you'd expect from someone who would normally be labeled as right wing for anything else.

People do rather love labeling whatever they can as far left/ right for PR purposes, it's one of the things that gets my eyes rolling consistently.

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7 hours ago, Malcador said:

Heh, so the shooting in Brooklyn Center was down to the cop not knowing where her taser was.  Must be some rigorous hiring standards :lol:

It basically boils down to, "No, the other left hand". Brain lock under stress, I suppose. Maybe robocops will do better?

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Meh, left wing, right wing, who cares?

Oven BBQ Chicken Wings

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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'Conservative' Texas senator John Cornyn criticizes President Joe Biden for being "unimaginably conventional".

i'd like to exit the simulation now, please

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Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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4 hours ago, Gorth said:

Meh, left wing, right wing, who cares?

Oven BBQ Chicken Wings

Gorthfuscious you not taking this subject very seriously and it is  a very serious subject. For example its not so much the left or right wing but the type of sauce that matters. It must be a blue cheese sauce and preferably a Roquefort blue cheese sauce .....that is the ideal blue cheese sauce and should be mandatory with all wings 🍗:wowey:

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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3 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Gorthfuscious you not taking this subject very seriously and it is  a very serious subject. For example its not so much the left or right wing but the type of sauce that matters. It must be a blue cheese sauce and preferably a Roquefort blue cheese sauce .....that is the ideal blue cheese sauce and should be mandatory with all wings 🍗:wowey:

I am... in my own way. Once you cover it in sauce, they both taste the same. Not that different from the political spectrum. Stray far enough away from the middle and it doesn't matter what their stated end goal is, the means of getting there are the same. Some flavour of authoritarianism and a single leader. If it all tastes the same to the common man, why try so hard to label things with meaningless labels?

Now if those cult/political/religious whatever leaders offered us blue cheese sauce... it might be easier to swallow 😋

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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1 minute ago, Gorth said:

I am... in my own way. Once you cover it in sauce, they both taste the same. Not that different from the political spectrum. Stray far enough away from the middle and it doesn't matter what their stated end goal is, the means of getting there are the same. Some flavour of authoritarianism and a single leader. If it all tastes the same to the common man, why try so hard to label things with meaningless labels?

Now if those cult/political/religious whatever leaders offered us blue cheese sauce... it might be easier to swallow 😋

That is  very clever and humorous  analogy about political rhetoric and sauce ...well played :grin:

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Regarding the Soviet Union, I have several In-laws that miss a lot of things about the old the old days. If I had to describe the biggest difference I see between them and what I see with most Americans is that they don't think they're all millionaires in waiting and would rather trade a a higher ceiling for a higher floor, if that makes sense.

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1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

Regarding the Soviet Union, I have several In-laws that miss a lot of things about the old the old days. If I had to describe the biggest difference I see between them and what I see with most Americans is that they don't think they're all millionaires in waiting and would rather trade a a higher ceiling for a higher floor, if that makes sense.

Interesting observation but it doesn't really make sense to me? What do they miss about the USSR because the Baltic states were treated really badly within the USSR which is why you will notice how committed they are to the EU and how quickly all three countries joined the EU after the collapse of the USSR.  Most people  were not automatically  wealthy in the Baltic states during the Cold War

Lived experience matters in many ways so this type of opinion from people living in a particular country  is always pertinent 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting observation but it doesn't really make sense to me? What do they miss about the USSR because the Baltic states were treated really badly within the USSR which is why you will notice how committed they are to the EU and how quickly all three countries joined the EU after the collapse of the USSR.  Most people  were not automatically  wealthy in the Baltic states during the Cold War

Lived experience matters in many ways so this type of opinion from people living in a particular country  is always pertinent 

looking at it the wrong way. 

the russian economy, by any western metric, is not good, but the situation from 1991 until near 2000ish were kinda nightmarish. germany and japan, after ww2, were rebuilt by the winners. the russians/ussr lose cold war and then the west stands by and watches as many freeze and starve. 

putin shows up and and gdp functional doubles in eight years, lowest wages is significant supplemented and pensions is restored. not a surprise people in russia love putin.

today, no matter how bad things get and regardless o' how many is sent into poverty with each new self-inflicted financial crisis, putin has convinced russians it is the fault o' the west. putin's playbook is based on deflection and whataboutism and he uses with his own people as much as in foreign policy.

but again, post 1991 were a terrible and frightening time for russians. can bring up statistics ' bout how terribad is the russian economy in 2008, 2014-2017, today, but none living in russia has ever known better. is not a hard sell for putin to convince russians they is doing good, 'cause compared to how bad things were, putin is not wrong.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Communist Party of Russia is still the 2nd largest voting bloc. And even in Russia people don't really like beating up grannies and veterans for their political views.

That is technically true, but current communist party isn't united behind singular ideology, but they are more like left wing alliance and even then it has only ~13% support and Marxists are minority in the party. Left-wing nationalist (who don't really care about communism or socialism, in their world view social struggle is between nations) and reformers (who are critical towards communism and USSR and want socialism that is quite close to Nordic socialism). 

In my knowledge grannies and veterans aren't don't make any bigger sunk of members of communist party than they make of United Russia. I would not recommend to go shout Marxist slogans in Karelia for example, as there those grannies may beat you up.

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9 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

looking at it the wrong way. 

the russian economy, by any western metric, is not good, but the situation from 1991 until near 2000ish were kinda nightmarish. germany and japan, after ww2, were rebuilt by the winners. the russians/ussr lose cold war and then the west stands by and watches as many freeze and starve. 

putin shows up and and gdp functional doubles in eight years, lowest wages is significant supplemented and pensions is restored. not a surprise people in russia love putin.

today, no matter how bad things get and regardless o' how many is sent into poverty with each new self-inflicted financial crisis, putin has convinced russians it is the fault o' the west. putin's playbook is based on deflection and whataboutism and he uses with his own people as much as in foreign policy.

but again, post 1991 were a terrible and frightening time for russians. can bring up statistics ' bout how terribad is the russian economy in 2008, 2014-2017, today, but none living in russia has ever known better. is not a hard sell for putin to convince russians they is doing good, 'cause compared to how bad things were, putin is not wrong.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You raise  some good points Gromnir and I agree with most of it because  historical precedence always matters and can shape and inform citizens views 

The only point I would still raise is the Baltic States are not part of Russia nowadays so why would citizens living their think the USSR offered  a better standard of living ? Because nowadays their economies and quality of life is much better than under the USSR

https://blog.reinvest24.com/the-economy-in-the-baltic-states-keeps-growing-and-heres-why#:~:text=The Baltic states’ economy in 2019 looks promising.,will continue to stimulate economic growth relatively strongly.

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Just now, BruceVC said:

You raise  some good points Gromnir and I agree with most of it because the historical precedence always matters and can shape and inform citizens views 

The only point I would still raise is the Baltic States are not part of Russia nowadays so why would citizens living their think the USSR offered  a better standard of living ? Because nowadays their economies and quality of life is much better than under the USSR

https://blog.reinvest24.com/the-economy-in-the-baltic-states-keeps-growing-and-heres-why#:~:text=The Baltic states’ economy in 2019 looks promising.,will continue to stimulate economic growth relatively strongly.

fake news. western lies. 

only kinda kidding.

russians know there is better than what they have, but particular the older generation o' russians remember just how bad things can be. for near a decade after 1991, russians were promised how much better things would be. just wait a little bit for free market magic to work.

starve.

freeze. 

putin made things better.

is not complicated or deep or profound.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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35 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

@Gromnir Bruce is asking about Baltic states: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania not Russia. 

and Gromnir were initial responding to shady observations 'bout the ussr.

more specific, the baltic states is having significant russian expat populations, and the expats is curious more pro putin than those current living in russia. also, the baltic state economies were inextricably linked with russia during the dismal post 1991 years. same problems.

the thing is, it is our admitted limited experience (mostly lithuania) that the the baltic governments is hardly pro moscow. as recent as a couple years ago (haven't checked recent) lithuania were calling russia a terrorist state and estonia is always at the forefront o' nations pushing for tougher western sanctions o' russia.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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