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9 hours ago, Kaylon said:

As a monk with high crit chance you can easily lower fortitude with Enervating Blows and/or Stunning Surge. The +50% duration on hostile effect is nice, but the Forbidden Fist will generate wounds much slower and you have to invest heavily in resolve instead of other attributes. Also if you need to extend the effect of your spells/abilities it's better to debuff resolve using Psychovampiric Shield (it has a stronger effect, is resisted less, has longer duration).

Wound generation ceases to be an issue once you have Parting Sorrow (triggered also on kills). Not much to spend Wounds on anyway. First Forbidden Fist is free (and you generally don't want additional stacks of the Curse). You want full attacks - Stunning Surge - and that uses Mortification (but should be refunded on rapiers all the time). Later Flagellant's Path is Mortification also (and awesome). Plus you can use Cipher Powers also. That mostly leaves Thuderous Blows buff. So I'd hoard most Wounds rather then spend them.

Also you're comparing a fast, basically spammable attack, which is a part of your normal combat routine, that also provides a hefty debuff, with a specific targeted debuff that will deal no damage to the enemy, use up your cast time and Recovery. 

I'd only use Psychovampiric Shield on particularly dangerous enemies. Meanwhile, Forbidden Fist is spammed all the time (once the previous Curse expires). Doesn't hurt that their effects should stack.

Edited by Haplok
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10 hours ago, Kaylon said:

As a monk with high crit chance you can easily lower fortitude with Enervating Blows and/or Stunning Surge. The +50% duration on hostile effect is nice, but the Forbidden Fist will generate wounds much slower and you have to invest heavily in resolve instead of other attributes. Also if you need to extend the effect of your spells/abilities it's better to debuff resolve using Psychovampiric Shield (it has a stronger effect, is resisted less, has longer duration).

Bonus durations from Enfeebled, INT, enemies' RES, Lingering Echoes and crits do stack though - and you can skip Enervating Blows.

When using Hylea's Talons + Forbidden Fist curse + Enduring Dance then wound generation isn't a problem if the "hostile effect" durations on you are very short - even without Parting Sorrow you'll have enough wounds.

And of course you can play with the mechanic and do something like playing with a DEX resistance and stepping through your Wizard buddy's Binding Web. Or using a party member's Tanglefoot. The most ridiculous thing is to have a fellow Berserker in the party who uses the Footsteps of the Beast (boots): the confused-friendly-fire drop traps will have a very short hobble duration to begin with and you'll swim in wounds as Forbidden Fist.

Early on you will generate wounds a lot more slowly though, that's my experience as well. But on the other hand you'll have a very good attack ability right from the start which costs 0 resources. I tend to alternate between Force of Anguish (use the wound gained from the curse) and Forbidden Fist (when at 0 wounds).

The real bummer is Forbidden Fist not generating Focus - but as was said this can be fixed with the Community Patch.

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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1 hour ago, Haplok said:

Wound generation ceases to be an issue once you have Parting Sorrow (triggered also on kills). Not much to spend Wounds on anyway. First Forbidden Fist is free (and you generally don't want additional stacks of the Curse). You want full attacks - Stunning Surge - and that uses Mortification (but should be refunded on rapiers all the time). Later Flagellant's Path is Mortification also (and awesome). Plus you can use Cipher Powers also. That mostly leaves Thuderous Blows buff. So I'd hoard most Wounds rather then spend them.

Also you're comparing a fast, basically spammable attack, which is a part of your normal combat routine, that also provides a hefty debuff, with a specific targeted debuff that will deal no damage to the enemy, use up your cast time and Recovery. 

I'd only use Psychovampiric Shield on particularly dangerous enemies. Meanwhile, Forbidden Fist is spammed all the time (once the previous Curse expires). Doesn't hurt that their effects should stack.

You need lots of wounds at the beginning of the fight not at the end. There are plenty of abilities to spend wounds as a monk. Personally I always summon the Dichotomous Soul and I like to use Efficient Anguish vs enemies resistant to might afflictions. Instruments of Pain is also a nice option to have when you don't want to be in the front line.

Psychovampyric shield has only slightly longer recovery but is a more reliable debuff and should be used when it matters (not that you can't spam it). VS normal enemies enfeebled isn't really needed because they die just as fast - it's comparable in utility to Bloody Slaughter (vs normal enemies it doesn't matter because when they're near death they will die after a hit anyway and vs tough monster you rarely crit...)

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Bonus durations from Enfeebled, INT, enemies' RES, Lingering Echoes and crits do stack though - and you can skip Enervating Blows.

When using Hylea's Talons + Forbidden Fist curse + Enduring Dance then wound generation isn't a problem if the "hostile effect" durations on you are very short - even without Parting Sorrow you'll have enough wounds.

And of course you can play with the mechanic and do something like playing with a DEX resistance and stepping through your Wizard buddy's Binding Web. Or using a party member's Tanglefoot. The most ridiculous thing is to have a fellow Berserker in the party who uses the Footsteps of the Beast (boots): the confused-friendly-fire drop traps will have a very short hobble duration to begin with and you'll swim in wounds as Forbidden Fist.

Early on you will generate wounds a lot more slowly though, that's my experience as well. But on the other hand you'll have a very good attack ability right from the start which costs 0 resources. I tend to alternate between Force of Anguish (use the wound gained from the curse) and Forbidden Fist (when at 0 wounds).

The real bummer is Forbidden Fist not generating Focus - but as was said this can be fixed with the Community Patch.

Enduring Dance is a waste of points for melee characters, unless you play a very defensive build (without mentioning that mortification points are better spent elsewhere).  You could stack Enfeebled and Psychovampiric shield but in the fights that it might be worth it does a very little difference anyway.

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3 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Enduring Dance is a waste of points for melee characters, unless you play a very defensive build.

Forbidden Fist with max RES, Tuotilo's Palm and even better Instruments of Pain is a very defensive build - or let's say a build that doesn't get hit a lot.

 

3 hours ago, Kaylon said:

without mentioning that mortification points are better spent elsewhere

Indeed, one shouldn't mention it if it isn't correct. ;) 

 

3 hours ago, Kaylon said:

You could stack Enfeebled and Psychovampiric shield but in the fights that it might be worth it does a very little difference anyway.

You not only could, you should. It was you who repeatedly said in the past that Disintegrate isn't that good against bosses because of their high RES and that it doesn't last long enough then. With +50% duration from enfeeblement combined with the longer duration from the -10 RES that's not longer the case.

You can skip Enervating Blows which is hard to pull off against tough bosses anyway and instead get a reliable Enfeeeblement effect which even does good damage - while it makes it easier to land the stun from Stunning Surge (which then lasts a lot longer, too) in order to lower Fortitude even more in preparation of Disintegrate.

Even with stuff like Whisper of Treason, Puppet Master and also Ringleader the Enfeeblement is a great tool - since you can control enemies a LOT longer (especiall in combination with DualityINT and Lingering Echoes). It's easy to punch them and then turn them into puppets for what feels like an eternity. Even cast Disintegrate on them if no hostiles are left to fight. No problem while ascended with +10 INT...

Can't see how that makes "very little difference" since the difference is pretty obvious imo. But maybe it depends on playstyle. If you mainly use the Cipher side to increase your martial abilities with Borrowed Instinct and Soul Whipe etc. then it could well be that it's not worth it to have/use Forbidden Fist. But I wouldn't play a Forbidden Fist/Cipher that way. I use the Forbidden Fist to improve the Cipher casting. 

 

 

 

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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On 3/9/2021 at 3:09 PM, Boeroer said:

Forbidden Fist with max RES, Tuotilo's Palm and even better Instruments of Pain is a very defensive build - or let's say a build that doesn't get hit a lot.

Having a shield and high RES doesn't make a defensive build. 😉

On 3/9/2021 at 3:09 PM, Boeroer said:

Indeed, one shouldn't mention it if it isn't correct. ;) 

I agree... 

On 3/9/2021 at 3:09 PM, Boeroer said:

You not only could, you should. It was you who repeatedly said in the past that Disintegrate isn't that good against bosses because of their high RES and that it doesn't last long enough then. With +50% duration from enfeeblement combined with the longer duration from the -10 RES that's not longer the case.

And I say it again... Even if you debuff their RES, your fortitude attack has to pass their defense. And then you will say you need at least someone with a morning star to debuff their fortitude and then spam Forbidden Fist until you hit with Enfeeble which has a great chance to graze if the boss isn't already resistant to body afflictions... Of course it could work if you like the hard way. 😀

 

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2 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Having a shield and high RES doesn't make a defensive build. 😉

That's why I added Instruments of Pain and "or at least one that doesn't get hit a lot"
 

 

2 hours ago, Kaylon said:

your fortitude attack has to pass their defense. And then you will say you need at least someone with a morning star to debuff their fortitude and then spam Forbidden Fist until you hit with Enfeeble which has a great chance to graze if the boss isn't already resistant to body afflictions.

 

The good thing is that Enfeebled itself profits from its own +50% duration buff - so a graze isn't actually that bad and can still make some difference. The base duration is 12 secs but because it buffs its own duration it's always more than that. It also lowers Fortitude so you actually can try to reapply it more easily if you wish.

If the boss ist resistant to CON afflictions then at least you will apply the weakened status - which isn't as good as enfeebled obviously but still better than applying no CON-affliction at all with your damaging ability. Keep in mind that besides a healing malus -5 CON also reduces the health of the enemy - even significantly if it's a boss. It's even helpful if the affliction ends prematurely:


Here's one good thing about Envervating Blows though: if you have no trouble landing crits vs. deflection it will apply weakened automatically (no seperate roll vs. Fortitude). So maybe it's even worth taking if you are a Forbidden Fist.

You dodged the part about Enfeebled + Mind Control which I think is a rel. strong suit of Forbidden Fist/Cipher imo. 

Edited by Boeroer
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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Here's one good thing about Envervating Blows though: if you have not trouble landing crits vs, deflection it will apply weakened automatically (not seperate roll vs. Fortitude). So maybe it's even worth taking if you are a Forbidden Fist.

That's a great point, Boeroer. In the past I haven't taken Enervating Blows for a FF, but I see now that it could make it easier to land the FF attack against high FORT foes.

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I find Enduring Dance worth it even if I only activate it in stealth and wait until I got a few ticks of +3 ACC and some wounds while teammates buff the party up and try to debuff the boss. Then I can come in with rel. high ACC and wound count and use the Forbidden Fist - even more than once of the Enfeeblement doesn't graze on the first try. Not only does this make my other stuff like Psychov. Shield and Disintegrate etc. more powerful but also it prolongs the stuff all my teammates are putting on that enemy.

And then it's just cool imo that you can always use a crush attack - even if you are wearing a Rapier + Tuotilo's Palm or whatever setup. Rännig's Wrath would be my first unique choice and then later the SSS soulbound rapier which is just nuts with Cipher. 

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13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

That's why I added Instruments of Pain and "or at least one that doesn't get hit a lot"

I didn't bother to address that because Forbidden Fist is a melee attack and avoiding melee is obviously against the main purpose of the subclass. 

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

The good thing is that Enfeebled itself profits from its own +50% duration buff - so a graze isn't actually that bad and can still make some difference. The base duration is 12 secs but because it buffs its own duration it's always more than that. It also lowers Fortitude so you actually can try to reapply it more easily if you wish.

The idea was Forbidden Fist isn't reliable enough vs bosses to try to build a strategy around the 50% duration. It's a nice bonus to have, but you basically have to sacrifice abilities like Dichotomous Soul or Instruments of Pain (losing utility, damage and survivability in every fight).

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

If the boss ist resistant to CON afflictions then at least you will apply the weakened status - which isn't as good as enfeebled obviously but still better than applying no CON-affliction at all with your damaging ability. Keep in mind that besides a healing malus -5 CON also reduces the health of the enemy - even significantly if it's a boss. It's even helpful if the affliction ends prematurely:


Here's one good thing about Envervating Blows though: if you have no trouble landing crits vs. deflection it will apply weakened automatically (no seperate roll vs. Fortitude). So maybe it's even worth taking if you are a Forbidden Fist.

Exactly, you don't need to be Forbidden Fist to debuff CON, you just need Enervating Blows and high accuracy(which happens to be one of the strengths of the cipher+rapier combo).

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

You dodged the part about Enfeebled + Mind Control which I think is a rel. strong suit of Forbidden Fist/Cipher imo. 

I dodged nothing, but maybe you didn't fully grasp the idea... Tactics involving attacks targeting fortitude (which is the highest defense of a boss) are not reliable.

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47 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

I didn't bother to address that because Forbidden Fist is a melee attack and avoiding melee is obviously against the main purpose of the subclass. 

It works with Instruments of Pain so I don't understand where the issue is. You can use all melee abilities at 6m range then, including Forbidden Fist -  and that allows you to use Enduring Dance more efficiently because you won't get hit much. That was my whole point - it doesn't get invalidated because Forbidden Fist is a melee attack. 

47 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

but you basically have to sacrifice abilities like Dichotomous Soul or Instruments of Pain (losing utility, damage and survivability in every fight).

You do not have to sacrifice those - why would you? Activate Enduring Dance, then Instruments of Pain from stealth and start Forbidden FIst punches. Not long and you can summon Dichotomous Soul. Or cast Dichotomous Soul first and Intruments of Pain after that. Besides that it depends if OP wants to use Dicotomous Soul in the first place.

47 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

Exactly, you don't need to be Forbidden Fist to debuff CON, you just need Enervating Blows and high accuracy(which happens to be one of the strengths of the cipher+rapier combo).

That's right, but the 50%/pervents healing bonus is very good still and not that hard to apply because grazes work well, too. Helm of the White Void gives +10 ACC to Forbidden Fist by the way but not to Enervating Blows. Precision Striker (+5 ACC with unarmed attacks) works woith Forbidden Fist, too, but I didn't check if the fortitude roll is also affected.

 

47 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

I dodged nothing, but maybe you didn't fully grasp the idea... Tactics involving attacks targeting fortitude (which is the highest defense of a boss) are not reliable.

I didn't mean against bosses but more in general. But against bosses it can also be nice - if those bosses have ads. You can domiante them for the whole encounter basically which is very useful. As Forbidden Fist/Beguiler I very often turned multiple enemies into long time puppets. Charming also works. You then have all the time in the world and can enjoy Enduring Dance etc.

This is obviously not a valid stragety vs. Megabosses but still very effective in most other fights (SSS for example) and fun to play.  

Edited by Boeroer
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How will you rate a hellwalker/devoted with rapiers (squid grasp & rannig wrath) vs a hellwalker/devoted with sabres (probably scordeos edge & Aldrith blade / Grave calling (while fighting vessels))?

Rapiers will have better accuracy (so more crits -> more procs of monk free hit), better PEN and immune to flank; while sabres should have better damage, faster attacks and more versatil (way more sabres...).

I'm looking for rerolling a melee dualwield MC, inpired from the blade class (without the bard part) from BG2 (an offensive/defensive spin themed melee build).

Edited by Exanos
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9 hours ago, Exanos said:

How will you rate a hellwalker/devoted with rapiers (squid grasp & rannig wrath) vs a hellwalker/devoted with sabres (probably scordeos edge & Aldrith blade / Grave calling (while fighting vessels))?

Rapiers will have better accuracy (so more crits -> more procs of monk free hit), better PEN and immune to flank; while sabres should have better damage, faster attacks and more versatil (way more sabres...).

I'm looking for rerolling a melee dualwield MC, inpired from the blade class (without the bard part) from BG2 (an offensive/defensive spin themed melee build).

Scordeo's Edge and Grave Calling are more powerful than any Rapier a Helwalker/Devoted could use imo - so in terms of potential power I would opt for the sabres. Don't forget that Scordeo's Edge has "Adaptive" which is giving you up to +20 stackable melee accuracy which is already better than Rapier (+5, +9 when using Rännig's Wrath) + modal (+20 but slows you down a lot and it's not stackable with other active ACC buffs). Grave Calling is just ridiculously good if you have vessel summons - but even without the lash and especially the paralyze effect are very potent. I believe the Grave Bound paralyze doesn't even get lowered by resistances and immunity(?) since it's some special sauce. With high INT from Monk Adaptive: Blade Cascade, Chilling Grave and Grave Bound are a lot better, too.

Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming always use the main hand for additional attack rolls, even if the initially proc off of the offhand. That means you should use Scordeo's Edge in the main hand to proc Blae Cascade as much as possible I guess. 

Edited by Boeroer
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10 hours ago, Exanos said:

How will you rate a hellwalker/devoted with rapiers (squid grasp & rannig wrath) vs a hellwalker/devoted with sabres (probably scordeos edge & Aldrith blade / Grave calling (while fighting vessels))?

Rapiers will have better accuracy (so more crits -> more procs of monk free hit), better PEN and immune to flank; while sabres should have better damage, faster attacks and more versatil (way more sabres...).

The only thing I disagree with are the faster sabre attacks. Might be mistaken, but I think rapiers with modal are still faster then sabres without. Might be wrong, but even then the speed difference (with rapier modal on!) is a wash.

Without modal, rapiers are significantly faster.

Edited by Haplok
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It's not much if measured in seconds, right.

But in order to maintain a somewhat similar dps a Rapier has to be faster than a sabre - because its base damage is lower:
12 (Rapier) vs. 16 (Sabre).
Roughly speaking the sabre has 33% more base damage which has to be compensated with the Rapier's 33% faster (or 25% less slower) recovery. If the Rapier is only as fast as a Sabre it's already worse - if you can't stack the modal's ACC. If you can use the full ACC bonus effectively that's a different story of course. 
 
Vanilla sabre at 10 DEX with no recovery penalty will use 4.7 secs per attack cycle - while the Rapier + modal will use 5 secs per attack cycle.
The time difference is not much of couse. But if you can't profit from the increased ACC it's a rel. big dps loss.

In the early game however the Rapier's higher ACC is great and the modal is fantastic.
Especially when paired with one handed usage it's really hard to miss stuff.
You'll have +5+12+20=+37 ACC after all - which is an immense bonus early in the game where you often won't have access to other ACC buffs. And it's great for things like Soul Annihilation or other weapon maneuvers you don't want to miss with (Knockdown and so on).

Still, when looking at the uniques I'd def. go with sabres.

Edited by Boeroer
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Of course, I would also pick sabers :)

Existance of Scordeo's Edge really makes it a no-brainer choice, particularly on a monk with Swift Flurry/ Heartbeat Drumming. Grave Calling can get pretty stupid also.

Although on a non-Devoted a rapier could be a nice offhand :)

Edited by Haplok
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