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The All Things Political Thread (The World and US Reunited)


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You're forgetting the massive asterisk on the non-Democratic side of our election, though...

So I know Bolsonaro is...well, the worst, but what's the deal with this Lula guy?

Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

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Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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We are heading to the same mess. Right-wing people are already crying, saying there will be fraud in 2022 to remove Bolsonaro.

Lula stole a lot of money when he was president. Leftists denied it for years, but eventually some admitted it. He also made a deal with the congress to get his projects approved in exchange for bribes. The funny thing is that Bolsonaro is now allied to some of the same people who were bribed back them...

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1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

We are heading to the same mess. Right-wing people are already crying, saying there will be fraud in 2022 to remove Bolsonaro.

Lula stole a lot of money when he was president. Leftists denied it for years, but eventually some admitted it. He also made a deal with the congress to get his projects approved in exchange for bribes. The funny thing is that Bolsonaro is now allied to some of the same people who were bribed back them...

Yeah, there's an unfortunate strain in the left to stan for people who are obviously bad because they happen to oppose something as bad or worse. The idea that two things can be bad even when they oppose each other is hard to accept I guess.

Oh and about THE SCOURGE OF CANCEL CULTURE DESTROYING CIVILIZATION BY BANNING* DR SEUSS, I had this linked to me about banned books. If accurate, it seems that the Concerned Christians are still the kings of cancelling. Once again the anti-cancelling crusaders charge the windmills while the real monsters get ignored (or supported).

*not a real ban

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"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

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34 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

If accurate..

It looks far more that that info is just irrelevant rather than inaccurate. It doesn't really matter if some parent(s) complain(s) about, say, Harry Potter 5 times over a 20 year period, it's pretty obvious that HP/ Rowling didn't get 'cancelled'* even if a random library actually removed it instead of thanking the parents for their concerns and transferring the correspondence to the circular file. But if nothing else, the consistent appearance of certain titles in those lists year after year makes it obvious they haven't been cancelled, whatever the complaints. In order to be cancel culture the thing actually has to get cancelled. The question really is how many books actually get 'cancelled' by the censorious 'left' compared to the censorious 'right', not how many complaints there are.

The only question about 'accuracy' is the number of complaints, typically 3-400, and even that is more about relevance. You'd have to suspect that even the most slacktivist of woke campaigns can get more than that tweeting over a far shorter period than a year, and will typically target the publisher rather than libraries.

*and of course the great irony is that now it's the wokesters going after Rowling because she has the wrong views on gender...

On Lula, the main defence for him is that everyone in Brazilian politics is corrupt, but at least he brought millions out of poverty instead of (well, in addition to, more realistically) just adding more to the divide between rich and poor as has been usual practice from the likes of 2% Temer and Bolsonaro.

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42 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

Yeah, there's an unfortunate strain in the left to stan for people who are obviously bad because they happen to oppose something as bad or worse. The idea that two things can be bad even when they oppose each other is hard to accept I guess.

Exactly. And the sad thing is that there are other options, plenty of left-wing candidates in Brazil. While I wouldn't bet any of them is honest, they are at least something new (even if most of them are former ministers of Lula). But now we will almost certainly end up with a second round in the election with the two worst options.

 

7 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

On Lula, the main defence for him is that everyone in Brazilian politics is corrupt, but at least he brought millions out of poverty instead of (well, in addition to, more realistically) just adding more to the divide between rich and poor as has been usual practice from the likes of 2% Temer and Bolsonaro.

Some will say he only did that because the economy was doing well and later that was lost when Dilma was president. Still, they robbed too much.

Edited by InsaneCommander
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10 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Everyone wants the thing they don’t like prohibited. No one is on the side of the angels. But every one mistakenly thinks they are.

this part is more true today than at any time in recent memory, but still with the hyperbole.

cancel culture is utter subjective and as far as we can tell, is the label given when a group exerts economic pressure or violence to end or change a practice or behavior which you (not gd specific) personal find benign or harmless. the cancel culture label is more likely to be attached if the group in question is one which you do not approve.

for gd, the seuss thing were cancel culture and deserved to be called out with his mockrage hyperbole... right up until the moment he realized the content seuss chose not to publish were indeed objectionable in 2021. again, the extent o' gd mockrage were the attempt at humor, but the displeasure with what gd perceived as yet another example them trying to unjust prohibit something they do not like were real.

and recall, is who gd compared his not seuss mockrage to the massachusetts not-book-ban. unfortunate for gd, the mass. reading list issue were an example o' gd being genuine indignant sans the hyperbole and nazi imagery.  

am knowing it seems like am picking on gd, but you are simple the most comical overt and readily available example. 

point am trying to make, and am knowing is being missed, is that cancel culture is some kinda fluid label which people use to condemn them and they. whatever cancel culture is, it ain't new and it ain't the property or prerogative o' the left or the right. prohibition were cancel culture? the moms we mentioned earlier who led comicbook burnings or decades later tried to prohibit d&d were engaging in cancel culture? when conservative viewers went to newsmax and oan after fox failed them, were that cancel culture? every time berkeley students try and prevent objectionable individuals from speaking at organized events on campus, and even go to extremes o' burning the literature o' the speakers in protest, is that cancel culture? 

company towns were mentioned recent in this thread. nobody forced coal miners to work in the company town scheme. were the movement to end such cancel culture? damn hippies and veterans tried to cancel the vietnam war. how 'bout the civil war, or rather the abolition movement which preceded the civil war? if not, then why not? were fact such efforts to cancel were justified the reason for the situation being different?

...

is our pov, cancel culture isn't real, or at least not meaningful.

modern media and internet changed the game considerable. people have always been angry and indignant 'bout... something. organize a movement to do something 'bout the shared indignation has been difficult to manage. create a movement to end comic books may not be a particular laudable example, but how does such a thing develop nationwide pre internet or even tv? am suspecting one reason why religious groups has so often spearheaded such canceling efforts is 'cause in the US, religious observation were a weekly event where likeminded people congregated and listened to speeches 'bout morality.  dunno. am admitted just guessing as to the "success" o' religions in this area o' human endeavor. regardless, the organization o' shared indignation were, as often as not, extraordinary. 

compare to january 6 wherein a bunch o' folks tried to cancel the election. late last year, pennsylvania's republican majority legislature passed laws to expand mail in voting during the pandemic and at the time, voter security were discussed brief by PA lawmakers but dismissed. nothing burger. fast forward to summer and trump is already claiming that if he loses the november election is 'cause vote were rigged and mail-in voting (but not absentee mail-in voting) is fraudulent and rigged. by november 4, Congressional republicans and others is citing pennsylvania's pandemic inspired mail-in vote expansion as one o' the great evils which caused the theft of the 2020 presidential election... but not state or fed offices on the same ballot. so, in a few short months you went from crazy-arsed conspiracy theories being spouted by a guy who claims the sound from wind turbines causes cancer, to the actualization o' an insurrection, a mob bent on stopping the electoral college process and possible worse. 

indignation were always a thing. anybody doubt caveman indignation? the thing is, 21st century media and internet makes far easier to share indignation. capacity to share and organize is no longer exceptional. labor unions and religious organizations don't have a corner on the market in the 21st century. 

regardless, cancel culture is just a label.  doesn't mean anything as far as we can tell. people organize and protest and boycott for reasons both good and bad and have been doing so since forever. nothing new or different 'bout protests and boycotts save for how readily such movements develop nowadays. "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."-- Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927). the time available to meaningful change hearts and minds before people become radicalized is so much shorter nowadays... and when you got significant numbers o' texans believing the recent cold and snow in their state were fake/manufactured, then is ordinary efforts at education even possible? 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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44 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

The question really is how many books actually get 'cancelled' by the censorious 'left' compared to the censorious 'right', not how many complaints there are.

What books have actually been canceled then? Josh Hawley's got canned by the publisher, but the backlash to that thing on the 6th seems to be a bit different than most of what I've seen get called cancel culture. Most of these so-called cancellations are just celebrity dip****s getting yelled at on twitter, and I see no reason to care about JK Rowling getting yelled at by people with cartoon avatars after she goes off about trans people or Bari Weiss being mad her coworkers hate her.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

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9 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

people with cartoon avatars

First they came for J.K. Rowling, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Harry Potter fan.

Then they came for Dr. Seuss, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Green Eggs & Ham fan.

Then they came for me [a person with a cartoon avatar], and there was no one left to speak for me.

When will this vicious cycle end, KaineParker?

Edited by Bartimaeus
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Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

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Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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So liberals are reverse Nazi's?

Gee who would have thought.

Only Libertarian Socialists can curb this madness before it gets out of hand.

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"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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14 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

First they came for J.K. Rowling, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Harry Potter fan.

Then they came for Dr. Seuss, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Green Eggs & Ham fan.

Then they came for me [a person with a cartoon avatar], and there was no one left to speak for me.

When will this vicious cycle end, KaineParker?

Good question? What will they do next? Come after people with D&D avatars?

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45 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

When will this vicious cycle end, KaineParker?

When people stop being mad on the internet. And then people need to stop being mad about people being mad on the internet. Afterwards we require people to stop being mad on the internet about people being mad on the internet about people being mad on the internet.

So probably never lmao. 

Edited by KaineParker
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"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

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5 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

We are heading to the same mess. Right-wing people are already crying, saying there will be fraud in 2022 to remove Bolsonaro.

Lula stole a lot of money when he was president. Leftists denied it for years, but eventually some admitted it. He also made a deal with the congress to get his projects approved in exchange for bribes. The funny thing is that Bolsonaro is now allied to some of the same people who were bribed back them...

I have been meaning to chat to you about your personal views on the rise and collapse of the Brazilian economy. If you interested we must discuss this later when you have time 

I  must say I am shocked Lula is legally allowed to run for president. He was jailed and linked to  corruption and wasnt he also linked to the corruption of the state owned oil company Petrobras !!! Or is that Rousseff 

https://www.britannica.com/event/Petrobras-scandal

Also remember for socialists and anti-free market people Brazil use to seen as an example of a "semi-socialist "  success under Lula and Rousseff so when rampant corruption was exposed within the so called anti- Capitalist economy people refused to acknowledge it. And Bolsonaro initially won popular support because he represented everything that would fix this.....yet he became a thorough disappointment ....very thorough 

I am sorry for what you guys are going through, Brazil has the potential to still be the leading economy in  South America but yes you do have bad luck with leaders and their respective economic and political policies 

 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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3 hours ago, KaineParker said:

What books have actually been canceled then?

Don't know, it was a non rhetorical question.

In order to establish whether there's cancel culture for books and who is to blame you need to establish if anything has been 'cancelled' and who is doing it. Not much point arguing about something that may not even exist.

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Also remember for socialists and anti-free market people Brazil use to seen as an example of a "semi-socialist "  success under Lula and Rousseff so when rampant corruption was exposed within the so called anti- Capitalist economy people refused to acknowledge it. And Bolsonaro initially won popular support because he represented everything that would fix this.....yet he became a thorough disappointment ....very thorough 

Fascism always comes at the outset of a failed left wing government.  Obama -> Trump is kind of an example of that as well (though probably a more moderate one).  Should be a wake up call for leftists of all countries, fascism will always ALWAYS rear it's ugly head if you don't get smarten up, Hitler and Mussolini's bad names won't stop that.

One of my favorite quotes from Trump on Twitter was that he said the only reason he's sitting in the White House is because of Obama.

Whelp he was correct.

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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I find it distirbing and hillarious at the same time. Some of the current socialist/ left actions are so similar to what was happening in lets say Eastern Germany not so long ago. 

Soon state will be taking children away from parents, because parents are wrong thinkers. 

Just watch some of the video materials from great socialist utopias or listen to woman leaders  like Helga Labs. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

I find it distirbing and hillarious at the same time. Some of the current socialist/ left actions are so similar to what was happening in lets say Eastern Germany not so long ago. 

Soon state will be taking children away from parents, because parents are wrong thinkers. 

Just watch some of the video materials from great socialist utopias or listen to woman leaders  like Helga Labs. 

 

I wouldnt be too worried about the various examples of modern flawed socialist policies we see in some countries because you will notice these policies always  end up harming the economic trajectory 

So in other words we dont have to worry about children being taken away because that would mean these socialist polices are working and sustainable ...and they not, they generally end up as epic failures. The biggest problem is the citizens of these countries have to now deal with the broken economic aftermath. Its tragic and unnecessary but this is what happens when societies and governments decide to address " inequality " without following tried and tested prudent free market thinking and interfere in the private sector :shrugz:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Marks of socialist utopia in the making 😂

@BruceVC is probably used to such stories or acts in his home South Africa 😉

Absolutely but in SA this type of incident is not considered a crime, its a form of entrepreneurship because of all the problems with our economy and people need somehow to have a revenue stream 

I would advise our friends in the USA to adopt the same policy, then you  dont get upset or concerned when you hear about it ;)

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I wouldnt be too worried about the various examples of modern flawed socialist policies we see in some countries because you will notice these policies always  end up harming the economic trajectory 

So in other words we dont have to worry about children being taken away because that would mean these socialist polices are working and sustainable ...and they not, they generally end up as epic failures. The biggest problem is the citizens of these countries have to now deal with the broken economic aftermath. Its tragic and unnecessary but this is what happens when societies and governments decide to address " inequality " without following tried and tested prudent free market thinking and interfere in the private sector :shrugz:

You can have a socialist government and still have a market economy.

Just look at.....China!  They are doing well and their government on their 14th 5 year plan and doesn't allow billionaires to interfere with government policy, though there's certainly rich entrepreneurs in China, and many of them even support government projects!

It's a pretty good setup.

Edited by ComradeMaster
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"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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7 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

You can have a socialist government and still have a market economy.

Just look at.....China!  They are doing well and their government on their 14th 5 year plan and doesn't allow billionaires to interfere with government policy, though there's certainly rich entrepreneurs in China.

It's a pretty good setup.

You raise a good point, would you recommend we change our laws and systems of government to become like China?

I think its  a one party state so who should rule supreme in the USA ? I am thinking Republicans but not Trumpism, old school George Bush Republicanism ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Am I still asleep and this is some feverish dream, or is this thread becoming even dumbererer than usual? It has to be satire at this point.

Looks like Dr. Horrible's right:

 

Edited by majestic

Give me the eyes, so I see
Give me ears, so I hear
Give me love, so I know what love is
Give me freedom to think, to believe
In something
                        -- Tony Kakko

 

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4 minutes ago, Elerond said:

They are royals? They special people selected by god to rule lowly peasants of world. I wonder how they would not be dirtbags

Elerond !!!! What a terrible thing to say, dont be jealous and angry because no one cares or knows about the Finnish royal family 

Its not the fault of the UK  Monarchy that much of the world has an interest in their lives....dont be a hater :teehee:

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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