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The All Things Political Thread (The World and US Reunited)


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There's a reason why the limit approaches, but never reaches zero. 

(But then much of mathematics is logical constructs, to explain number behavior, I'm not sure you can single 0 out)

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Being an engineer we were just told to roll with whatever the mathematicians told us. So they all say 0 is a Real and an Integer, so I'll stick to that 😛

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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40 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Being an engineer we were just told to roll with whatever the mathematicians told us. So they all say 0 is a Real and an Integer, so I'll stick to that 😛

Not sure what it has to do with politics, but here's my favorite identity: 

e^{i\pi }+1=0

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Being an engineer we were just told to roll with whatever the mathematicians told us. So they all say 0 is a Real and an Integer, so I'll stick to that 😛

function o' zero remains same whether you call it a number or a poodle. engineers is tending towards practical, so understandable non-issue.

am not recalling much debate re:0 in physics department, but we were only undergrad and student athlete trying to graduate in three years, so esoteric were not our focus. 

babylonian/sumerian sexagesimal makes a whole lotta sense particular from an astrological pov, and for the tween kids you get to say "sexagesimal" and be complete legit doing so. go home and when parent asks what you learned in school you can tell 'em 'bout the sumerian preoccupation with sexagesimal values. growing up is tough and you gotta find the funny where you can.

as for a rando opinion piece somewhere regarding the naming o' a telescope which were s'posed to be forever linked with some guy who +90% o' folks needed to use their search engine to identify, am having a difficult time getting worked up or angry... particular if the guy were a bigot. change name o' telescope from "unknown administrator" to the marvin the martian telescope for all we care. get the damn thing off the ground and working. 

btw, am not a fan o' naming stuff after lincoln neither. yeah, he were arguable the most important President in the history o' the nation, but for all the things he got right, he got a whole lot wrong. discuss the wrongs along with the right is often made more difficult 'cause o' the idolatry which surrounds lincoln, and the idolatry is understandable given all the lincoln schools, parks and memorials which exist in the US. is sacrilegious to suggest ____________ shouldn't be named after linclon? 

am also not suggesting we change name o' lincoln park in chicago to douglas park. lord knows am not suggesting we don't teach 'bout lincoln 'cause his administration were all too frequent open hostile to indigenous peoples and the Constitution o' the US. should teach lincoln, but should be more fair 'bout it. nevertheless, in the dakotas we grew up with much stuff being named after henry sibley, and those naming choices made us more than a little uncomfortable when younger and embarrassed when older. veneration o' past icons who perhaps never deserved such acclaim should be  something 'pon which we reflect, and the curious belief that once named, a bridge, park or even satellite may never be given a new title is a position w/o our support. if is a private enterprise, owner can name whatever they want and then must needs suffer consequences. if is public, then why should 2021 persons be bound by name choices made decades past? perhaps the reason for a name change is bad, but simple fact a bunch o' folks in the 1920s named a bunch o' stuff after confederate generals to scare persons o' color is not gonna convince us name needs remain 'cause such a mistake were allowed to endure for so many decades. the satellite hasn't even been launched, so is hardly having even the silly historical reverence angle.

if some rando opinion piece 'bout the naming o' a telescope becomes front page fodder 'cause alt-right radio and fox sudden is fixated on cancel culture (understandable given the dearth o' policy arguments being offered at recent cpac) am a bit concerned, but not so much 'bout the so-called cancel culture. thanks to gd linking, the author o' the opinion piece offered us info 'bout a nasa administrator who appears to have been complicit or instrumental in promoting and implementing anti-lgbtq policies. is info 'bout which we were previous unaware. am applauding fact we know more 'bout a possible stain on nasa and previous us administrations we were only familiar with marginal in the context o' the us space programs. am not particular concerned 'bout the name change demand. again, is a single individual's opinion piece and am not particular concerned 'bout the naming o' a perpetual delayed satellite. however, am understanding why these kinda name choices deserve reflection and consideration w/o knee-jerk adversity to anything labeled cancel culture.

HA! Good Fun!

ps am kinda serious 'bout the marvin name for the telescope, save for increasing likely possibility the telescope inexplicable fails in dramatic fashion and then there will be the endless jokes about the illudium q36 space modulator malfunction.

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones - Anthony, Act 3 Scene ii, Julius Ceasar

I do sometimes wonder what the tipping point between whether a historical figure was "good" or "bad" is.  In the case of Mr. Webb of NASA, contextually, is it important to note that the DSM-II had Homosexuality as a mental illness until 1973, and WHO had it classified as a disease until 1990?  Or not?  Was he an egregious bigot even for his time, or was he someone who, using the 'scientific' information he had at hand believed that the LGBTQ+ community was a security risk due to what the psychological community was telling him was a mental illness?  I'm not sure what the answer is, to be honest.

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32 minutes ago, Amentep said:

The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones - Anthony, Act 3 Scene ii, Julius Ceasar

I do sometimes wonder what the tipping point between whether a historical figure was "good" or "bad" is.  In the case of Mr. Webb of NASA, contextually, is it important to note that the DSM-II had Homosexuality as a mental illness until 1973, and WHO had it classified as a disease until 1990?  Or not?  Was he an egregious bigot even for his time, or was he someone who, using the 'scientific' information he had at hand believed that the LGBTQ+ community was a security risk due to what the psychological community was telling him was a mental illness?  I'm not sure what the answer is, to be honest.

is ok not to be sure. given the lack o' specific evidence o' overt bigotry presented by the opinion piece, am thinking is ok to question whether webb were good or bad or the kinda banal mix o' both which is all too common in 2021 and no less true in the 60s and 70s. not have a good answer is reasonable.

our problem is the folks who reflexive see consideration o' the question as offensive. the suggestion o' a name change o' a bridge, park or satellite should not result in some kinda partisan divide over the appropriateness o' cancel culture as a matter o' principle. case-by-case. if after due consideration enough people is convinced that webb doesn't deserve to have a satellite or even a toaster oven bear his name, then am ok with such a decision just so long as is well-considered and reasonable. if folks choose not to change name after similar consideration, well then, that is how democracy works, no? the author o' the opinion piece may not be happy 'bout the lack o' a name change, but people should have an opportunity to choose. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps am also believing one needs be conscious o' just how often in history the selective use o' science has been used to justify bigotry. minorities has frequent been put in the unenviable position o' fighting science... naked bigotry in the guise o' science. 

 

 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Can we kick out immigrants like Denmark does? Critics snicker after AOC lauds McDonald’s workers’ wages in European nation — RT USA News

Interesting take on the minimum wage debate.  Though McDonalds workers in Denmark receive $22/h on paper, after taxes it's slashed in half to provide welfare services.  Also Denmark apparently boots out illegal immigrants w.o question, something that's antithetical to American values.

What bothers me about Democratic party FAKE leftists and the American right is that these Scandanavian countries are perceived and "Socialist" when they are merely welfare states with stronger racial ties than that of the U.S.

I'd prefer some actual Socialism where the state provides more jobs and affordable housing and competes with the free market.

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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It seems that less than 20% is these days 50% and following shows which countries agreed to follow  1951 Refugee Convention (light green) and  1967 Protocol (yellow) and both (dark green)

Refugee Convention Signatories.svg

Also clearly deporting without questions is antithetical to American values, which is why

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49079495

"US expands powers to deport migrants without going to court

Under the new rules, migrants who cannot prove they have been in the US continuously for more than two years can be immediately deported."

But at least it is consistent with communist governments in past

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16 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

I'd prefer some actual Socialism where the state provides more jobs and affordable housing and competes with the free market.

When you have real socialism the private market tends to go away. The state really doesn’t like competition. But on the upside there are plenty of job opportunities. Like secret police and labor camps. Marx didn’t envision such but no “real socialist “ country as ever done it without them.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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@Elerondyou understand how the United States works. You got to give the people a bad guy to be afraid of. A bogeyman. The Republicans will tell you to be afraid of the immigrants, the Chinese, and the Democrats. The Democrats tell you to be afraid of the Russians, the evil corporations, and the Republicans. Oh, and Dr. Seuss. It’s all just hobgoblins. Most of them imaginary. The only thing that sucks is in standing up these hobgoblins to scare people into voting real people actually do get harmed. Most of our politicians would tell you that’s a small price to pay for their high paying jobs, lavish benefits, and multiple opportunities for graft. If a few kids get locked up in Texas, some poor sod spends the rest of his life in prison for smoking a joint, or people get bombed in the Middle East so be it. 
 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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Speaking of Dr. Seuss, has anyone actually seen the pictures that are supposed to be offensive? I’ve tried searching the web and can’t seem to find them. Before we go goose-stepping around piles of burning books it would be kind of nice to see what has everyone in a twist to begin with.

also let me say it’s kind of odd to hear conservatives bitching about banning offensive books. Especially since they have been the driving force for that kind of thing going all the way back into the 1800s. Usually for nebulous “moral” objections.

Edited by Guard Dog
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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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I see Seuss' books are selling well, so is a good marketing plan I guess.  Not quite sure it's book burning, but guess we'll see how different companies and agencies handle it within the next weeks.  Local PL here said they don't know what to do yet, I am betting they'll chuck them in storage or something.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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2 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I see Seuss' books are selling well, so is a good marketing plan I guess.  Not quite sure it's book burning, but guess we'll see how different companies and agencies handle it within the next weeks.  Local PL here said they don't know what to do yet, I am betting they'll chuck them in storage or something.

LOL, I was being facetious.

as for the pictures the two that Gftd linked, yeah that dog will not hunt in the modern era. Very 1930’s. So I’m guessing that re-illustrating them is out of the question? Unless it’s in the text too. Actually on second thought that’s probably not a good idea. Editing old books to suit modern mores would be very Orwellian and would totally ruin a lot of great works. I think Huckleberry Finn would be reduced to a pamphlet 😆

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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Well not specifically you but I do see people making the claim that we're on the slippery slope to some tyranny, also some funny stuff that only if you are racist will you see something as racist.  Eagerly anticipating Youtube recommending me some neckbeard icon preaching about it :lol:

 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Not totally relevant, but Dr. Seuss' wife's suicide note after she discovered he was cheating on her while she was ill:

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"Dear Ted, what has happened to us? I don't know. I feel myself in a spiral, going down down down, into a black hole from which there is no escape, no brightness. And loud in my ears from every side I hear, 'failure, failure, failure...' I love you so much ... I am too old and enmeshed in everything you do and are, that I cannot conceive of life without you ... My going will leave quite a rumor but you can say I was overworked and overwrought. Your reputation with your friends and fans will not be harmed ... Sometimes think of the fun we had all thru the years."

Eight months later, in June 1968, Ted married Audrey Dimond, with whom he had been having an affair before Helen's death.

Rough way to go.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

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Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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1 hour ago, Malcador said:

I see Seuss' books are selling well, so is a good marketing plan I guess.

Yeah, but it probably gets you on some watchlist if you order one. :p 

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

So I’m guessing that re-illustrating them is out of the question? Unless it’s in the text too. Actually on second thought that’s probably not a good idea. Editing old books to suit modern mores would be very Orwellian and would totally ruin a lot of great works.

I was wondering why they didnt just edit them out too, but I guess you have a point about other literature.

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1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Editing old books to suit modern mores would be very Orwellian 

It's already been done before. The 60s/70s/80s reprints of pulp stories for Doc Savage, The Shadow, The Avenger, etc. were all edited to remove outdated terminology; typically reference to non-white races that were considered offensive being changed to neutral racial descriptors.

EDIT: Oh, and several NANCY DREW novels were completely re-written (sometimes keeping only the name) beginning in the 1960s to remove elements that would be considered offensive.

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3 hours ago, Amentep said:

It's already been done before. The 60s/70s/80s reprints of pulp stories for Doc Savage, The Shadow, The Avenger, etc. were all edited to remove outdated terminology; typically reference to non-white races that were considered offensive being changed to neutral racial descriptors.

EDIT: Oh, and several NANCY DREW novels were completely re-written (sometimes keeping only the name) beginning in the 1960s to remove elements that would be considered offensive.

I didn’t know that. That’s pretty wild. I think it’s probably better just to leave them as their written. They were a product of their time. The fact that that is offensive now is a credit to us more than a detriment to the people of those times. Maybe the proper message would not be to clean up the past so much as be proud that we left it in the past. But when it comes to children’s reading material that probably doesn’t work

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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Childhood books made me look up stuff on the Hardy Boys...and wow that series got weird.

Edited by Malcador
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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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12 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I didn’t know that. That’s pretty wild. I think it’s probably better just to leave them as their written. They were a product of their time. The fact that that is offensive now is a credit to us more than a detriment to the people of those times. Maybe the proper message would not be to clean up the past so much as be proud that we left it in the past. But when it comes to children’s reading material that probably doesn’t work

Well said. Children's books are a different matter than classic literature, and it is fine to have different standards for them. Huck Finn is important as it is capturing a very specific time in our American history. I'm all for protecting it. Some dated looking caricatures in a picture book don't get the same reaction from me. It can still be used as a discussion piece, it isn't getting scrubbed from the history books, but there are better options in the children's section of the library.

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39 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I didn’t know that. That’s pretty wild. I think it’s probably better just to leave them as their written. They were a product of their time. The fact that that is offensive now is a credit to us more than a detriment to the people of those times. Maybe the proper message would not be to clean up the past so much as be proud that we left it in the past. But when it comes to children’s reading material that probably doesn’t work

I think the examples I've mentioned have all been reprinted for specialty markets in their original forms by the way; just the mass market versions being edited.  

The thing is I kind of get it.  The Bantam Doc Savage reprints were a hit in the 60s and probably wouldn't have been if they'd continued to reflect the attitudes of the 1930s with outdated racial reference.  I can see the Stratemeyer Syndicate thinking the same things with Nancy Drew.  Both were really corporate owned characters, so you could argue the 'owner' was technically doing the editing.

This reminds me of something that comes up from time to time in comics circles, because DC comics really wants to reprint the old Captain Marvel comic serial story THE MONSTER SOCIETY OF EVIL but can't figure out how they can do it as a sidekick character whose drawn in a racially stereotyped way is prominent in the series.  The last time it was reprinted was in the 70s (before DC owned the character) in a book targeted for collectors and before social media could jump on them for reprinting it.  DC has announced reprinting it several times since the mid-1990s and each time they've ended up pulling it (the last time just before the SHAZAM! film came out).

 

23 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Childhood books made me look stuff on the Hardy Boys...and wow that series got weird.

They've done a lot of series over the years to re-invent and re-introduce the characters to new readers.

22 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Well said. Children's books are a different matter than classic literature, and it is fine to have different standards for them. Huck Finn is important as it is capturing a very specific time in our American history. I'm all for protecting it. Some dated looking caricatures in a picture book don't get the same reaction from me. It can still be used as a discussion piece, it isn't getting scrubbed from the history books, but there are better options in the children's section of the library.

Its possible the Seuss estate could hire artists to 're-work' the 6 books they're pulling in a completely new edition a few years from now, assuming they want the concepts out there for kids without the distraction of the caricatures/stereotypes.

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1 hour ago, Amentep said:

Its possible the Seuss estate could hire artists to 're-work' the 6 books they're pulling in a completely new edition a few years from now, assuming they want the concepts out there for kids without the distraction of the caricatures/stereotypes.

I imagine if they were his big ones, that is what would happen. Apparently he had 45 original books, and I don't think the 6 pulled are in the top of his catalogue.

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4 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I imagine if they were his big ones, that is what would happen. Apparently he had 45 original books, and I don't think the 6 pulled are in the top of his catalogue.

They aren't but it would get them something 'new' to market and sell if they hired a new creator to rework the works. 

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8 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

When you have real socialism the private market tends to go away. The state really doesn’t like competition. But on the upside there are plenty of job opportunities. Like secret police and labor camps. Marx didn’t envision such but no “real socialist “ country as ever done it without them.

Come now, are you really trying to tell me that secret police and labor camps are symptoms of Socialism when the worlds beacon of democracy thrives on them. Socialism worked plenty well in Yugoslavia, arguably people had a better standard of living than most capitalist countries at the time. The main issue Yugoslavia had wasn't Socialism, it's that there was no longer a leader strong/smart enough to control the party and that the world no longer had a balance between Russia and US. After Russia fell the west had no reason to leave a third world power remaining in Europe.

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