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The All Things Political Thread (The World and US Reunited)


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12 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

dead hungry later

Thats terrible :lol:

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

Because it's Russia, if he had leaked those documents he'd find himself drinking polonium tea in the morning.

Snowden has regularly criticized the Russian gvt. on his Twitter.

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"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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32 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Thats terrible :lol:

There was an attempt :)

  

16 minutes ago, MellowYellow said:

Snowden has regularly criticized the Russian gvt. on his Twitter.

That's not funny though. Got links?

Edited by Azdeus

Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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1 minute ago, MellowYellow said:

Snowden has regularly criticized the Russian gvt. on his Twitter.

Can you provide links, I would like to read and understand the degree of criticism from Snowden

Also Russia is currently wanting to ban Twitter and other forms of SM. Poor Putin cant handle nasty things said about him in the arena  of a free media ....shame poor him :teehee:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1408225/russia-news-vladimir-putin-twitter-ban-social-media-crackdown-protests-alexei-navalny

https://www.opindia.com/2020/12/russia-statement-ban-twitter-facebook-youtube-if-censor-content/#:~:text=Russia releases statement%2C could ban Twitter%2C Facebook and,might also face a ban. 26 December%2C 2020

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

There was an attempt :)

  

 

It reminds of the visits I sometimes use to make to cemeteries in JHB, you know Azdeus that graveyards in modern cities are normally in the dead center of town and people are always dying to go their ;)

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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10 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Can you provide links, I would like to read and understand the degree of criticism from Snowden

Also Russia is currently wanting to ban Twitter and other forms of SM. Poor Putin cant handle nasty things said about him in the arena  of a free media ....shame poor him :teehee:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1408225/russia-news-vladimir-putin-twitter-ban-social-media-crackdown-protests-alexei-navalny

https://www.opindia.com/2020/12/russia-statement-ban-twitter-facebook-youtube-if-censor-content/#:~:text=Russia releases statement%2C could ban Twitter%2C Facebook and,might also face a ban. 26 December%2C 2020

 

 Twitter is shadowbanning everyone who doesn't conform to the Empire's consensus so I'm not sure who's the hypersensitive one here, Telegram is work in progress alternative to Twitter.

Also,

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/29/edward-snowden-describes-russian-government-as-corrupt

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"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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6 minutes ago, MellowYellow said:

 Twitter is shadowbanning everyone who doesn't conform to the Empire's consensus so I'm not sure who's the hypersensitive one here, Telegram is work in progress alternative to Twitter.

Also,

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/29/edward-snowden-describes-russian-government-as-corrupt

Thanks for the link, this is always what I ask of you so I can do my own research

Unfortunately this doesnt do Snowden any favors and its not evidence of him actually criticizing the Kremlin  for reasons outside his own survival

In other words this article is just about him being worried that Putin would hand him over to face necessary justice in the USA, its clear this is only about him and not about real concern with the illegal arrests and killing of Russian citizens. It even says in the beginning

"His comments mean the proposed US-Russia summit in Helsinki on 16 July is potentially risky for him if Donald Trump was to request Vladimir Putin to hand him over.

Snowden is wanted in the US on three charges under the Espionage Act, carrying a minimum of 10 years each in jail. Putin could balance the propaganda value of having Snowden in Russia against providing Trump with an easy gift "

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, Azdeus said:

Good question, I'm thinking Blini or Syrniki, I mean it's not like he's going to be dead hungry later

They could do a full menu of 100% invented in Russia and nowhere else foods and add Vodka and Borsht too. Then maybe distract everyone by asking which is the correct name Lviv Lvov Lwow Lemberg should be known by.

Thanks are due to Bruce for running with the stereotypical astroturfing examples, though they weren't really needed. Quite apart from giving me the opportunity to point out, again, that the only reason Snowden is in Russia is because the US deliberately stranded him there by cancelling his passport to make him look bad to drooling cretins I can also remind people about Evo Morales' plane being forced down in complete contravention of the Vienna Protocols on the mere rumour that Snowden was aboard. Then I can also make a pithy observation about how all the pontificating about the 'rules based system' of international relations only ever gets applied when it's [not western] countries or their buddies (hello, Muhammed bin Bonesaw and his ongoing mass starvation in Yemen) breaking them.

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4 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

 

 Quite apart from giving me the opportunity to point out, again, that the only reason Snowden is in Russia is because the US deliberately stranded him there by cancelling his passport to make him look bad to drooling cretins I can also remind people about Evo Morales' plane being forced down in complete contravention of the Vienna Protocols on the mere rumour that Snowden was aboard. 

No, thats not accurate all

The only reason Snowden is in Russia it because its the only country that would give him sanctuary after he betrayed his own country by directly breaking the terms of his NSA contract that he swore an oath to not break. Even China wouldnt give him a place to live and have also censored his autobiography 

https://world.time.com/2013/06/25/snowdens-hong-kong-escape-what-role-did-beijing-play/

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/12/edward-snowden-says-autobiography-permanent-record-censored-in-china

I understand things like contracts and NDA's dont mean anything to you when its suits your narrative but they do matter to countries and governments when it comes to things like "national security " and " highly confidential information " 

Sorry Zora, thats just the way every country in the world operates when in comes to confidential information  and what institutions like the NSA do and the reason they expect their employees to not make public the work they involved in :shrugz:

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Good thing I know you're just doing an ad absurdum impersonation of an astroturfer Bruce, or I'd be worried about your ability to walk and chew gum simultaneously.

Of course, those blessed with the ability to, uh, read know that Snowden got stuck in the Moscow transit lounge after the US cancelled his passport and while en route to [not Russia]. For some reason he just didn't want to go through any vassal states, perhaps because he weas worried about his plane being forced down.

Ironically, if the US had let him get to Bolivia he'd probably have been handed over last year by- 100% democratic, 0% coup and 0% fascist- Jeanine Anez.

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2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Gorthfuscious I have definitely noticed an unusual level of criticism from you towards my posts. I enjoy different views and the principle of debate so I am not suggesting you should agree with me at all. In fact disagreement leads to debate. But for example you keep saying " I dont believe in Democracies" which I have never ever suggested

That was your rather nonchalant dismissal of the idea that the people Crimea should have any say in their future and your rationalizing of why democracy is only for the select few. That was probably when I took a rather dim view of your attitude towards things that matters to me, like the right to self determination of your future. Things didn't improve when you showed yourself very enthusiastic about the idea, that the military should be exempt from scrutiny by elected leaders. Especially since we're not talking about all out total war, but tit for tat low profile warfare where strikes that doesn't have collateral damage in innocent lives lost is the exception rather than the rule. Last what I consider hypocrisy in victim blaming when trying to condemn whistleblowers rather than the dirt they revealed. All in all something I find doesn't paint a pretty picture measured by my own values.

Edit: Military leaders are very rarely held accountable for their decisions (good or bad), the US being no exemption. Elected leaders are, at the very latest when the next election comes around. Hence why I prefer them to keep a leash on the military.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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4 minutes ago, Gorth said:

That was your rather nonchalant dismissal of the idea that the people Crimea should have any say in their future and your rationalizing of why democracy is only for the select few. That was probably when I took a rather dim view of your attitude towards things that matters to me, like the right to self determination of your future. Things didn't improve when you showed yourself very enthusiastic about the idea, that the military should be exempt from scrutiny by elected leaders. Especially since we're not talking about all out total war, but tit for tat low profile warfare where strikes that doesn't have collateral damage in innocent lives lost is the exception rather than the rule. Last what I consider hypocrisy in victim blaming when trying to condemn whistleblowers rather than the dirt they revealed. All in all something I find doesn't paint a pretty picture measured by my own values.

 

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying and yes all those points are valid opinions I have but I wouldnt frame them in the way you have 

For example, you cant expect any country in the world to just give up its sovereign territory, or  accept have that territory taken like in the Crimea , because another country demands it or even if the majority of people in that region want to break-away

Their are plenty of examples of this. Like the Spanish separatist movement with the objective of a separate Catalonia 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/27/which-other-regions-want-to-secede-from-spain/

Spain has several reasons for not allowing this irrespective of the fact the majority in the region want to breakaway from Spain

Their is a legal and international way you can achieve independence from a country but it cant be accepted you do what Russia did and unilaterally decide to include Crimea as part of Russia. You can see how countries can breakaway and be independent if you look at the creation of South Sudan 

https://www.usip.org/programs/independence-south-sudan

So my continued issue with the annexation of Crimea by Russia is its illegal by all recognized international courts and will continue to be illegal because their is a roadmap to achieve sovereignty and no government can just decide by itself which other country should be part of it.

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Good thing I know you're just doing an ad absurdum impersonation of an astroturfer Bruce, or I'd be worried about your ability to walk and chew gum simultaneously.

Of course, those blessed with the ability to, uh, read know that Snowden got stuck in the Moscow transit lounge after the US cancelled his passport and while en route to [not Russia]. For some reason he just didn't want to go through any vassal states, perhaps because he weas worried about his plane being forced down.

Ironically, if the US had let him get to Bolivia he'd probably have been handed over last year by- 100% democratic, 0% coup and 0% fascist- Jeanine Anez.

I dont  lookup Internet colloquialisms like " astrosurfer " so I have no idea  what it means 

Please use normal English words to insult me so I know what they mean?

And yes most countries would hand him over because no one likes a sell-out, the Cold War is over so how can you  truly trust someone that is prepared to betray their own country and even worse betray their own security institutions ?

Think about that one Zora :geek:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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9 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying and yes all those points are valid opinions I have but I wouldnt frame them in the way you have 

For example, you cant expect any country in the world to just give up its sovereign territory, or  accept have that territory taken like in the Crimea , because another country demands it or even if the majority of people in that region want to break-away

Their are plenty of examples of this. Like the Spanish separatist movement with the objective of a separate Catalonia 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/27/which-other-regions-want-to-secede-from-spain/

Spain has several reasons for not allowing this irrespective of the fact the majority in the region want to breakaway from Spain

Their is a legal and international way you can achieve independence from a country but it cant be accepted you do what Russia did and unilaterally decide to include Crimea as part of Russia. You can see how countries can breakaway and be independent if you look at the creation of South Sudan 

https://www.usip.org/programs/independence-south-sudan

So my continued issue with the annexation of Crimea by Russia is its illegal by all recognized international courts and will continue to be illegal because their is a roadmap to achieve sovereignty and no government can just decide by itself which other country should be part of it.

Why not look at bit deeper at the issue? The problem isn't that Russia annexed it from Ukraine, but Ukraine annexed it from Russia during the breakup of the Soviet Union. It doesn't compare to Spain and the Basque people (edit: I confess to know too little about the Sudan issue to have an opinion). Of course, the western countries decided that this was bad for Russia, therefore it was a good idea and supported it immediately, not giving a damn about consequences (or the people living in Crimea). Never mind that it had never been part of a country named Ukraine.

 

Edit: I think the US would be unwilling to hand over annexed territories like Texas and California to Mexico

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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3 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Why not look at bit deeper at the issue? The problem isn't that Russia annexed it from Ukraine, but Ukraine annexed it from Russia during the breakup of the Soviet Union. It doesn't compare to Spain and the Basque people (edit: I confess to know too little about the Sudan issue to have an opinion). Of course, the western countries decided that this was bad for Russia, therefore it was a good idea and supported it immediately, not giving a damn about consequences (or the people living in Crimea). Never mind that it had never been part of a country named Ukraine.

Okay I will look into the accusation that Ukraine annexed it from Russia after the Cold War

Because I dont support any illegal annexations unless really justified, and I cant imagine this Crimea example being justified,  but I need to research this further. I will get back to you later because I need to work now :) 

 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Focus more on pronouns, feels, "math is racist", "masculinity is bad, dangerous and toxic" and this will just become more prominent. 

Not only US is losing on development and in tech progress, but it is now admitted, they cannot confront China near their sphere of influence. 

https://news.yahoo.com/were-going-to-lose-fast-us-air-force-held-a-war-game-that-started-with-a-chinese-biological-attack-170003936.html

 

Lets add to that trillion of printed debt, and socio-economic collapse starts appearing on the wall fast, and US going to the dumpster geopolitically is soon after (with US losing ability to project power both militarly and economcially, once dollar gets trash canned from the reserve currency status) 

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21 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Okay I will look into the accusation that Ukraine annexed it from Russia after the Cold War

Because I dont support any illegal annexations unless really justified, and I cant imagine this Crimea example being justified,  but I need to research this further. I will get back to you later because I need to work now :) 

 

They didn't "annex if from Russia after the Cold War" as much as they put down lines on a map after the declaration of independence from the Soviet Union (roughly following the dotted lines on a map of the spheres of the Soviet bureaucracies, i.e. what in the Soviet Union was administered by Kiev). The West being their typical self wholeheartedly supported those territorial claims, recognizing what had been administrative lines made for management convenience as new national borders, regardless of history and ethnic composition of the people in those areas. Which is why Ukraine ended up with large Russian populations in Donetsk and Crimea. They never wanted to be part of this new country that laid claim to their land, but it was supported by the west for geopolitical reasons (i.e. what is bad for Russia is good for us).

Post Soviet Ukraine is sort of a mixed bag of revolutions (most famous being the Orange Revolution of 2004). Things took a down turn when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych was ousted in a violent uprising in 2014 (voted in as President in what international observers called free and fair elections in 2010), which directly lead to the Russian decision to "Return Crimea to where it belongs"

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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54 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Why not look at bit deeper at the issue? The problem isn't that Russia annexed it from Ukraine, but Ukraine annexed it from Russia during the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Not quite. Nikita Krushchev (a Ukrainian) transferred Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954* so it was well before the USSR broke up, though at that point there was no practical effect at all to the transfer. The proximal issue though with the USSR's break up was that Crimea had voted the previous year to leave Ukraine but that never got properly applied. In 1994 the Crimean parliament and presidency tried to formalise them leaving as had been confirmed in the initial referendum and a subsequent one, and Ukraine sent in 70,000 troops in to crush it and abolished its autonomy.

So yeah, Ukraine's actions were not exactly democracy in action but rather the reverse.

*much as Georgian Iosef Jugashvili transferred Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Georgia despite them not wanting to be part of it 20 years earlier. Always amusing to see people defend Stalin and Krushchev's decisions in those cases who'd never dream of defending any of their other decisions just because it suits them geopolitically.

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Eric Li with his analysis on global events from the Chinese perspective.

Li is awesome, he's an entrepreneur, educated in the U.S., and a staunch defender of China.

Spoiler

Here's the whole video, some of the best minds on global affairs give their perspectives

 

 

Edited by MellowYellow

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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So have you given up on Russia? 

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Not quite. Nikita Krushchev (a Ukrainian) transferred Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954* so it was well before the USSR broke up, though at that point there was no practical effect at all to the transfer. The proximal issue though with the USSR's break up was that Crimea had voted the previous year to leave Ukraine but that never got properly applied. In 1994 the Crimean parliament and presidency tried to formalise them leaving as had been confirmed in the initial referendum and a subsequent one, and Ukraine sent in 70,000 troops in to crush it and abolished its autonomy.

So yeah, Ukraine's actions were not exactly democracy in action but rather the reverse.

*much as Georgian Iosef Jugashvili transferred Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Georgia despite them not wanting to be part of it 20 years earlier. Always amusing to see people defend Stalin and Krushchev's decisions in those cases who'd never dream of defending any of their other decisions just because it suits them geopolitically.

Hence the "administered by Kiev" part. Simply because it was geographically closer than Moscow and made logistically sense as domestic politics in a single country. But, agreed. Many things glossed over because it doesn't fit the current popular western narrative.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Just now, Guard Dog said:

So have you given up on Russia? 

Hell no!  I'm with the 40% of Russians who think it's time for new leadership (Rule of thumb, anything that has at least 40% of support has a solid shot of winning out in the near future), as I think I stated earlier, Putinism was the cure to Russia's woes in the late 90's and early 00's, but it's now past its shelf life.

What they will (likely) do after Putin is take inspiration from the U.S.S.R., reinstate what worked and synthesize it with modern elements.  Maybe like China, but different.

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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1 hour ago, MellowYellow said:

Hell no!  I'm with the 40% of Russians who think it's time for new leadership (Rule of thumb, anything that has at least 40% of support has a solid shot of winning out in the near future), as I think I stated earlier, Putinism was the cure to Russia's woes in the late 90's and early 00's, but it's now past its shelf life.

What they will (likely) do after Putin is take inspiration from the U.S.S.R., reinstate what worked and synthesize it with modern elements.  Maybe like China, but different.

Like China? You mean like labor camps, secret police, making dissenters disappear? The Soviet union was pretty excellent at those things too. You don’t really think a society that supplies a minimalistic standard of living where no one goes without but few prosper is worth a few unmarked graves do you? At what price do we sell agency over our own lives if the society you seek demands that as payment? 
 

you are not a hard hearted man. You do not desire to see the rights and liberties of the individual citizens  curtailed. But I do think you would be willing to exchange that for some thing. And if you did I think you would find the free bread provided by the state would be the most expensive meal you’ve ever purchased.

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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9 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Like China? You mean like labor camps, secret police, making dissenters disappear?

Not quite what I meant, no, that's irrelevant in this context.  Easterners gonna eastern, right?  As an American I think I stated that I'm a libertarian socialist, which is proper and appropriate for U.S. context.

Modern China is basically a synthesis with Confucianism and imperial dynasty China with Maoism, the best of both elements. 

Modern Russia could be a synthesis between Tsarist Russia and the Soviet Union If they get rid of Putin and mobilize to achieve it.

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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2 hours ago, MellowYellow said:

...I think I stated earlier, Putinism was the cure to Russia's woes in the late 90's and early 00's, but it's now past its shelf life.

What they will (likely) do after Putin is take inspiration from the U.S.S.R., reinstate what worked and synthesize it with modern elements.  Maybe like China, but different.

Disagree on that one. Putin was what kept post Soviet era Russia from completely falling apart. Dozens of oligarchs where marshaling their mercenary forces, separatists and religious terror groups blooming in the Caucasus and a president that was slurring his words and stumbling in a drunken stupor on world wide TV, embarrassing Russia and its people in a rather painful way. Pockets of Red Army officers still having clandestine meetings, waiting for the right moment to make their move (anyone remember when that Fascist officer seized the Spanish parliament, wanting to revert Spain back to Fascist regime again?).

People may not like him today and resent his heavy handed methods of staying in power, but I still to this day believe the alternative situation if he hadn't stepped in would've been something worse by an order of magnitude.

Does Russia need change? Definitely. I sure as heck would *NOT* want to live there. Is some western backed populist stooge like Navalny the answer? No. Probably Putin's biggest failing so far is the lack of preparation for the time after he's gone. No establishing of hierarchies or power structures that can ensure stability after he's gone (and hes what, around 70 by now? Nobody lives forever).

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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