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Politics US Edition (2021!)


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2 minutes ago, Hiro Protagonist said:

 

If Australia can afford 1 trillion and give people up to $1500 every two weeks, then why can't America afford 2 trillion? We don't have $1k loaves of bread. You can buy bread from the supermarket here for $1.30

https://shop.coles.com.au/a/national/product/coles-smart-buy-bread-white

 

How far in debt is Australia? What’s Australia’s annual budget deficit? What percentage of Australia’s GDP goes to just the service of the debt?

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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20 minutes ago, Hiro Protagonist said:

 

If Australia can afford 1 trillion and give people up to $1500 every two weeks, then why can't America afford 2 trillion? We don't have $1k loaves of bread. You can buy bread from the supermarket here for $1.30

https://shop.coles.com.au/a/national/product/coles-smart-buy-bread-white

 

Because the US is really dumb and malicious.

"To be fair, if I was married to Milla Jovovich, I would also be happy just making movies that show off her butt." - Hurlsnot

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21 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

How far in debt is Australia? What’s Australia’s annual budget deficit? What percentage of Australia’s GDP goes to just the service of the debt?

Quick google search says 1 trillion.  USAs is 3 trillion and they give nothing to their citizens.  

There is more debt in the world than there is money.  It's pretty much just monopoly money at this point.

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1 hour ago, Theonlygarby said:

Quick google search says 1 trillion.  USAs is 3 trillion and they give nothing to their citizens.  

There is more debt in the world than there is money.  It's pretty much just monopoly money at this point.

That's right.

Gross government debt is forecast to hit $1.138 trillion in June 2024. Net government debt will be $966 billion.

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/disconcerting-australias-1-trillion-debt-explosion-exposed-200033933.html

But that's okay because we're having the economy tick over with $1500 per fortnight going to employees to keep them in work and $1100 per fortnight going to the unemployed.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/may/15/jobkeeper-payment-when-paid-eligibility-ato-tax-for-sole-traders-start-date-how-long-application-jobseeker-payments

The federal government will pay eligible employers $1,500 per fortnight for each eligible worker, about 70% of the national median wage, as long as you had a turnover of less than $1bn that have lost 30% or more of their revenue compared to a comparable period the previous year (2019). Can be sole traders, full-time, part-time, or long-term casuals employed on a regular basis for longer than 12 months as at 1 March 2020.

If an employee has been stood down, their employer must pay their employee, at a minimum, $1,500 per fortnight, before tax.

This means that employees of businesses that shut down due to various restrictions – such as cafes, restaurants, theatres, casino workers and the like – will continue to be paid even if they are not working.

------

What we've seen is prices remain the same in supermarkets. People continue to spend money for essentials and workers continue to go on holidays throughout Australia (which helps with tourism), though most mainly stay in their own state as state borders go up and down like a yo-yo.

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9 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am not sure why some people believe a recognition that the january 6 rioters were a mob somehow precludes the possibility that many people and sub-groups w/i the mob were engaging in seditious behavior.

am also gonna admit that the video linked by @Achilles has the speaker beginning with observations which were new to us. have watched a bit of fox and cnn. have read a fair amount at npr, washington post and many national newspapers. the description o' the mob elements as highly skilled were a bit o' a straw man in our personal experience as have literal never seen that claim made in the week since the Capitol riot. am not doubting a few pundits identified some select rioters or groups o' rioters as being militarized to some degree, but we all saw bison horn guy and who amongst us thought he were an element o' a well-trained militia group? the folks being arrested so far, or who is showing up frequent in news stories, is hvac repairmen from chicago or real estate agents from new jersey. an olympic medal swimmer were arrested. the singer in the article we linked earlier didn't strike us as skilled in modern combat techniques. the retired fireman who was bludgeoning cops with a fire extinguisher may not have been a professional, but he clear crossed a line and that line were not fuzzy and tough to recognize.

how many of the rioters who entered Capitol property w/o permission were hoping to at least delay the electoral college counting? 

not skilled professionals. however, is tough to not see trump as A inciting cause and many were bent on actions which fall w/i any dictionary or legal definition o' seditiious.

a seditious mob is not an oxymoron.

HA! Good Fun!

Gromnir here is a good question, what do you think the primary  instigators will be charged with and what do you personally think they should be charged  with

I have several questions around the legal process that  include 

  • Will they be charged in  a Federal court
  • What would you charge people with, for example they were saying on CNN things like public  violence and damage to property 
  • Finally what is a fitting sentence, how long do you think the jail sentences should be or rather what is typical sentence for these types of crimes 

Personally I think you need to set an example and throw the book at them and  for those directly involved in the violence. I think the time has come in the  USA to start coming down hard on anyone who is part of mob violence and anarchy and this should apply to anyone involved in violence and lawlessness generally during protests 

But I think you need to use reasonableness, I think  the Capitol violence has been worse than most BLM and Antifa violence overall  for various reasons so we need to separate things and how the law is applied 

I am not saying we give BLM or Antifa violence a pass, I am saying it is similar but also different especially around where the Capitol attacks  occurred and what was the objective for some. 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Gromnir here is a good question, what do you think the primary  instigators will be charged with and what do you personally think they should be charged  with

 

 

let the investigations play out before trying to predict all charges. sure, for many there is gonna be enough evidence today to charge something and believe it will stick. investigate and discover how much persons knew and when they knew and how many were involved in planning ahead and during the event.

*chuckle* 

would be ironic if giuliani were subject to rico, no?

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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2 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

let the investigations play out before trying to predict all charges. sure, for many there is gonna be enough evidence today to charge something and believe it will stick. investigate and discover how much persons knew and when they knew and how many were involved in planning ahead and during the event.

*chuckle* 

would be ironic if giuliani were subject to rico, no?

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Could you really charge Giuliani for RICO?

I well aware of RICO and I think it was a piece of genius legislation and you can understand how it has bought down many different established mobs but it will be tough to prove the direct connection in the sense to quote from RICO

allows the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes they ordered others to do or assisted them in doing, closing a perceived loophole that allowed a person who instructed someone else to, for example, murder, to be exempt from the trial because they did not actually commit the crime personally " 

Giuliani could easily argue he was using metaphors and never instructed anyone personally to commit a crime ?

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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8 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

Giuliani could easily argue he was using metaphors and never instructed anyone personally to commit a crime ?

 

 

which is exactly what giuliani were faced with when trying mob bosses. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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13 hours ago, Theonlygarby said:

Quick google search says 1 trillion.  USAs is 3 trillion and they give nothing to their citizens.  

There is more debt in the world than there is money.  It's pretty much just monopoly money at this point.

The USA is $27T in debt and closing in on  $28T at a rate of $68k per second. When Biden’s relief package passes next week we will pass $30T. The train is going full speed and everyone who has ever read an economics book in their life knows that just down the trestle a ways the track ends and the bridge is out. But faster and faster she goes.

This actually would be a fairly simple problem to fix if there was the political will to fix it. You don’t even need to cut spending. Five years of zero government spending growth meaning maintain the current level for five consecutive years in real dollars not adjusted for inflation will right  this problem. 

Edited by Guard Dog
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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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11 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

This actually would be a fairly simple problem to fix if there was the political will to fix it. You don’t even need to cut spending. Five years of zero government spending growth meaning maintain the current level for five consecutive years in real dollars not adjusted for inflation will right  this problem. 

Nationalize the banks and write the debt down to zero. Problem solved 😇

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Lots of things need to be nationalized, including major corporations, to reinvest money into the national treasury.  If 1/3 of all consumer goods are manufactured by the state it would go a long way towards alleviating the debt.

Also, do we really need to spend almost $1T on military?  I mean China's military budget is only like 6% because they're not stupid enough to engage in "Arms race" behavior, military spending is based on practical considerations.  

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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4 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Lots of things need to be nationalized, including major corporations, to reinvest money into the national treasury.  If 1/3 of all consumer goods are manufactured by the state it would go a long way towards alleviating the debt.

Also, do we really need to spend almost $1T on military?  I mean China's military budget is only like 6% because they're not stupid enough to engage in "Arms race" behavior, military spending is based on practical considerations.  

And utterly ruining all the people whose life savings depend on their investments in those corporations. What do you tell the stockholders then? Go hang? Do you want to see real sedition and insurrection? That’s one way to get it.

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

And utterly ruining all the people whose life savings depend on their investments in those corporations. What do you tell the stockholders then? Go hang? Do you want to see real sedition and insurrection? That’s one way to get it.

This is becoming less of an issue, because by and large young people are not becoming stockholders and investors. The money is all growing exponentially at the top, and very few people are able to bridge that gap.

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10 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

This is becoming less of an issue, because by and large young people are not becoming stockholders and investors. The money is all growing exponentially at the top, and very few people are able to bridge that gap.

if they have a mutual fund, pension or a 401(k) than they are stockholders. If their parents started a college fund for them or if they have life insurance (whole life not term) then they are stockholders. 

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

This actually would be a fairly simple problem to fix if there was the political will to fix it. You don’t even need to cut spending. Five years of zero government spending growth meaning maintain the current level for five consecutive years in real dollars not adjusted for inflation will right  this problem. 

Man, if you cared as much about people as you do about money...

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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17 minutes ago, Achilles said:

Man, if you cared as much about people as you do about money...

Take your sanctimony and stuff it. The Weimar Republic collapsed largely because of hyperinflation due to the overleveraged Deutsche Mark. That event led to the deaths of 91 million people by 1945. High end estimate of World War II military and civilian casualties was 85 million throw in another 6 million for the holocaust and another million or two of disease and famine after. That’s roughly 3 1/2% of the worlds population in just six years. you cannot discuss the causes of that war intelligently without bringing up what caused the collapse of the Weimar Republic flawed though it was. The economic well-being and actual well-being of people are two inseparable concepts. How would you like to be a 64-year-old man who has been smart with money all of his life and suddenly find out all of the companies that you have invested in are now nationalized and you don’t have a penny. But don’t worry Social Security will still give you $1000 a month. Too bad it’s buying power is being diminished by inflation. It’s no coincidence that the mortality in the rate in the United States increased in the 1930s compared to the 1920s

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

The Weimar Republic collapsed largely because of hyperinflation due to the overleveraged Deutsche Mark.

Yep. I'm aware. I'm also aware that 1) we're not being economically punished for our role in WWI and 2) the deutsche mark wasn't the reserve currency.

Yes, our debt is something that deserves our attention. I just find it slightly disconcerting that *any* talk about government programs or laws that might help people is met with "TYRANNY!", "OVER REACH!", etc, but you get all sorts of triggered any time the topic of national debt comes up.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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1 minute ago, Achilles said:

Yep. I'm aware. I'm also aware that 1) we're not being economically punished for our role in WWI and 2) the deutsche mark wasn't the reserve currency.

Yes, our debt is something that deserves our attention. I just find it slightly disconcerting that *any* talk about government programs or laws that might help people is met with "TYRANNY!", "OVER REACH!", etc, but you get all sorts of triggered any time the topic of national debt comes up.

The status of the dollar as the reserve currency for global trade is certainly not secure in the long term. The quickest way to undermine it would be to destabilize it by piss poor economic management at home. And spending us into oblivion isn’t necessarily government overreach. It’s just stupid. Nationalizing private business certainly would be. And no we are not being economically punished the way post World War I Germany was. We’re doing this bull**** all to ourselves.

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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3 hours ago, Gorth said:

Nationalize the banks and write the debt down to zero. Problem solved 😇

You know you cant nationalize banks Gorthfuscious because banks as listed companies  are " owned  " by share holders and what share holder would ever agree to losing there investment and then their is the reality of all the global financial regulations the banks align to and they not public entities, if there was ever a badly identified target for the historically flawed objective of nationalization then wanting to nationalize banks is it...in fact its the worst possible target in any economy. Rather go after the mining or agricultural sector :thumbsup:

It will be quickest way to crash your economy than any other as if  the financial markets collapse your entire economy gets dragged down with it 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, Achilles said:

Man, if you cared as much about people as you do about money...

Nah, you cant support people and pay for social services unless you have money

So you must always be concerned about money and who pays and how much 8)

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 How would you like to be a 64-year-old man who has been smart with money all of his life and suddenly find out all of the companies that you have invested in are now nationalized and you don’t have a penny. But don’t worry Social Security will still give you $1000 a month. Too bad it’s buying power is being diminished by inflation. It’s no coincidence that the mortality in the rate in the United States increased in the 1930s compared to the 1920s

Look, I'm not for nationalizing anything outside of healthcare, but I think you are missing out on the current outlook for young people in the country today. They can't buy houses, their 'college funds' don't come close to covering the costs, and everyone in the middle is slowly falling behind. The pandemic has made it even worse. 

This was a fun read I pulled up while looking into stuff this morning. I'd love to see an update after 2020. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/01/09/most-americans-say-there-is-too-much-economic-inequality-in-the-u-s-but-fewer-than-half-call-it-a-top-priority/  

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15 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Look, I'm not for nationalizing anything outside of healthcare, but I think you are missing out on the current outlook for young people in the country today. They can't buy houses, their 'college funds' don't come close to covering the costs, and everyone in the middle is slowly falling behind. The pandemic has made it even worse.

I'm two months away from paying off the student loans for my graduate degree. Meanwhile I've incurred $38k (so far) in parent-plus debt to send my son to three years of pubic university, because he can't bartend his way through the first four years like my generation could. I'll be paying on his education into retirement (assuming I don't die first).

My girlfriend has been socking money into 529 accounts for her girls since they were born. With luck, that will cover 2 years of community college and books once they transfer to a university.

All this so that our children don't fall back into the economic rut that we scratched and clawed our way out of. There's no reason it should be this hard. For anyone.

Edited by Achilles
529, not 538
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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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10 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Look, I'm not for nationalizing anything outside of healthcare, but I think you are missing out on the current outlook for young people in the country today. They can't buy houses, their 'college funds' don't come close to covering the costs, and everyone in the middle is slowly falling behind. The pandemic has made it even worse. 

This was a fun read I pulled up while looking into stuff this morning. I'd love to see an update after 2020. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/01/09/most-americans-say-there-is-too-much-economic-inequality-in-the-u-s-but-fewer-than-half-call-it-a-top-priority/  

And you think that printing money and more inflation will help in any of that? 

 

The only reason, that you do not have yet a gloval crisis is due to central banks running a lot of money without a real economy to follow on that. 

I hoped it will be crashing and we will get off the negative rates with the pandemic, but no, it could not be done, as there would be litteral revolutions, so they make the problem even worse for the future by printing even more money... 

At some point, the obly strategy left to get rid of national debts will be to inflate it away. Banks will keep negative rates, so you will have to pay in order to lend them your money. At that time prices will start going up, and you will be stuck with worthless junk. They will need to do this, as the national debt and its service will be so big, that they will start hitting a wall. 

Companies will not be paying you more, yet they will need to charge more, due to various fees and access to money being difficult.

You forget, that you also have trade deficits in US and you have global economy also affecting your life. 

At certain point, you will reach debt levels which cannot be serviced, as others will decide that USD is not worth it, and will decide to use other currency. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Achilles said:

Yep. I'm aware. I'm also aware that 1) we're not being economically punished for our role in WWI and 2) the deutsche mark wasn't the reserve currency.

Yes, our debt is something that deserves our attention. I just find it slightly disconcerting that *any* talk about government programs or laws that might help people is met with "TYRANNY!", "OVER REACH!", etc, but you get all sorts of triggered any time the topic of national debt comes up.

unless he decides a particular program isn't stupid.  

however, he will literal kill legal charged peace officers enacting democratic passed and Constitutional laws if he decides the law/program is offensive to his personal sensibilities. 

*shrug*

you are not gonna make headway. 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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