Suggestions for CRPGs like PoE

[Boeroer]

Maybe one also has to distinguish between quality of writing and quality of storytelling or pacing. The writing in Deadfire is as good as in PoE - if not better (the Beast of Winter is especially good). The main story is a bit short though and presented in a "hopplahopp there we are" way. Where PoE's story took too long to develop and suddenly rushed forward, Deadfire's main plot was over before you even realized it.  Or you got overly distracted by side quests that let you wonder if the whole Eothas problem really is so urgent after all.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Boeroer

[Mazisky]

@xzar_monty

Yeah, I didn't consider the translation issues and you may be right about the writing feeling much different between original and localized version.

Maybe it contributed with my non-enjoyment of Deadfire writing.

However, I've played PoE1 in italian too and it was great. Maybe they changed the localization team and Deadfire was localized way worse

[xzar_monty]

18 minutes ago, Mazisky said:

@xzar_monty

Yeah, I didn't consider the translation issues and you may be right about the writing feeling much different between original and localized version.

This is very likely to be the heart of your problem and your non-enjoyment of Deadfire. There has been quite a lot of talk about the translations, and some of them appear to have been really, really bad. It's such a shame. A bad translation can totally ruin a book, a game, a play etc. (I have worked in book publishing for over twenty years, and translation is my speciality. This is the area that I know a lot about.)

I understand you a lot better now. I have not played Deadfire in Italian, but knowing something about the overall quality of the translations, I can understand why the writing may look very poor in translation. Again, as I said, it's such a shame.

[xzar_monty]

53 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Maybe one also has to distinguish between quality of writing and quality of storytelling or pacing. The writing in Deadfire is as good as in PoE - if not better (the Beast of Winter is especially good). The main story is a bit short though and presented in a "hopplahopp there we are" way. Where PoE's story took too long to develop and suddenly rushed forward, Deadfire's main plot was over before you even realized it.  Or you got overly distracted by side quests that let you wonder if the whole Eothas problem really is so urgent after all.

 

I agree with everything here. I am currently playing the Beast of Winter, and it's probably the best-written piece in these two games, all DLCs considered. (The White March might be a close second.) I just did the Endless Queries quest, and that's a damn fine piece of writing. Coming up next: the Drowned Kingdom and the Bridge Ablaze (the best!).

The big problem in PoE was in pacing. The beginning was superb, but then it got slow and somewhat unclear. The city of Twin Elms was in the wrong place: once I got there, I no longer had the energy nor the interest to explore another city, I just wanted to get to the end.

Deadfire's main story is very short. It looks as if you're in a hurry to do it, but actually you're not: the world waits while you explore the whole archipelago. And the side quests are a lot more interesting than the main quest. And once you get to Ukaizo, it's like -- heck, is this it? There's a strange dissatisfaction at the end.

[Bosmer]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Same problem with Larian (also not native speakers and my French... you have to excuse it ;)).

Most of their employees in Belgium might be Dutch-speaking, although I assume that their work-language is English by now, with three studios over the world. Owlcat definitely have my respect for working on text-heavy crpgs with a group of mostly Russian employees ( I assume) and small budgets.

I actually backed WOTC and I'm curious to see what follows.. but don't know if it's going to be my cup of tea.. I tried DOS1 and DOS2 and put them away after 1 or 2 hours. I can see how people might appreciate these titles and I am certainly looking forward to BG3, but if I compare these games to POE1 and POE2 I think they are inferior in every aspect:

The PoE's outclass them in setting, world building, lore, art design, combat gameplay, companion depth, itemization and dialogue for sure. I cannot speak to the pacing of the other recent CRPGs, but it might be Deadfire's biggest design flaw. However, providing a compelling main story in an "open world" is a notoriously challenging task (look at the elder scrolls titles...). 

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Mazisky said:

Yeah, I didn't consider the translation issues and you may be right about the writing feeling much different between original and localized version.

Maybe it contributed with my non-enjoyment of Deadfire writing.

However, I've played PoE1 in italian too and it was great. Maybe they changed the localization team and Deadfire was localized way worse

Phew - that explains a lot.

[Mazisky]

2 hours ago, Bosmer said:

Most of their employees in Belgium might be Dutch-speaking, although I assume that their work-language is English by now, with three studios over the world. Owlcat definitely have my respect for working on text-heavy crpgs with a group of mostly Russian employees ( I assume) and small budgets.

I actually backed WOTC and I'm curious to see what follows.. but don't know if it's going to be my cup of tea.. I tried DOS1 and DOS2 and put them away after 1 or 2 hours. I can see how people might appreciate these titles and I am certainly looking forward to BG3, but if I compare these games to POE1 and POE2 I think they are inferior in every aspect:

The PoE's outclass them in setting, world building, lore, art design, combat gameplay, companion depth, itemization and dialogue for sure. I cannot speak to the pacing of the other recent CRPGs, but it might be Deadfire's biggest design flaw. However, providing a compelling main story in an "open world" is a notoriously challenging task (look at the elder scrolls titles...). 

 

I can tell you that Baldur's Gate 3 has a total different and much better writing than DOS 1 and 2.

Dos 1 and 2 are very silly and comparable to a cartoon made by Disney mixed with South Park.

Dunno what happened to Larian with Baldur's Gate 3 writing because it feels so much better, it's very similar to the Middle-Era of Bioware, it reminds me the writing of Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 1 to give you reference.

Pathfinder WOTC however is a very disaster in terms of writing, it's like you take my goth edgy 12 years old sister secret diary content and put it in the game.

Also, and that is another thing that's highly subjective, the game is extremely progressist, there is huge (really huge) focus on LGBTQ and Female celebration content. This is not a complaint because it's subjective, but I write this as an added info for those who cares about this stuff and want to know what kind of writing priorities the developers decided to embrace.

If you like this type of content, you will love the game. If you don't, well...

However, every other aspect of the game is so good and well crafted that the game experience is still top notch and I consider it at the top of any CRPG.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mazisky

[xzar_monty]

4 minutes ago, Mazisky said:

Dunno what happened to Larian with Baldur's Gate 3 writing because it feels so much better, it's very similar to the Middle-Era of Bioware, it reminds me the writing of Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 1 to give you reference.

It's such a shame that BG3 is turn-based only. I tried to enjoy turn-based in D:OS2, but it just doesn't work for me. So, unless there is going to be real time with pause in BG3, I'm simply going to skip it. It may be a great game, but heck, turn-based is too much for me.

[Mazisky]

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

It's such a shame that BG3 is turn-based only. I tried to enjoy turn-based in D:OS2, but it just doesn't work for me. So, unless there is going to be real time with pause in BG3, I'm simply going to skip it. It may be a great game, but heck, turn-based is too much for me.

Well, I am in a  weird situation about this. I loved only RTPW since I've started play those games from Baldur's Gate 1 in 90's till Deadfire now.

But, I am also a huge Xcom player and fan, so I've found myself in this weird position where I was upset about BG being turn based but then played it and realized that I like it being turn based too.

But I understand those who can only play RTWP that feel disappointed. Unfortunately RTWP is going to disappear since Larian took over the mainstream and Obsidian switched to Skyrim clones.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mazisky

[Bosmer]

48 minutes ago, Mazisky said:

Well, I am in a  weird situation about this. I loved only RTPW since I've started play those games from Baldur's Gate 1 in 90's till Deadfire now.

But, I am also a huge Xcom player and fan, so I've found myself in this weird position where I was upset about BG being turn based but then played it and realized that I like it being turn based too.

But I understand those who can only play RTWP that feel disappointed. Unfortunately RTWP is going to disappear since Larian took over the mainstream and Obsidian switched to Skyrim clones.

Well, I still have some hopes that the potential success of Avowed might allow one obsidian team to PoE3 .. maybe without Josh if he doesn‘t feel like it. Let‘s see  

[Mazisky]

LoL, I discovered now that Chris Avellone work for WOTC, so I am even more suprised about the disappointing writing

[xzar_monty]

8 hours ago, Mazisky said:

LoL, I discovered now that Chris Avellone work for WOTC, so I am even more suprised about the disappointing writing

He also worked for P:K. The goblin character Nok-Nok is written by him. It's not good writing. It's not terrible, but there's nothing there that stands out.

[kanisatha]

Stop saying "WOTC." It's WotR!! You guys are confusing the hell outta' me.

[kanisatha]

I didn't find P:Km's writing to be an obstacle to my enjoyment of that game. For the record, I agree with the criticisms of its writing several of you have brought up. But I was able to just slough that off and thoroughly enjoy the game for all of its other goodies. In fact, it, along with PoE1, is now my go-to game for replay.

Obstacles to my enjoyment of an RPG are such things as: first-person perspective; NOT party-based (including if party-based but with too small a party, i.e. party of just four); focus on multiplayer over single-player; and, TB combat.

So clearly these things are subjective. To each their own.

[xzar_monty]

8 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

I didn't find P:Km's writing to be an obstacle to my enjoyment of that game. For the record, I agree with the criticisms of its writing several of you have brought up. But I was able to just slough that off and thoroughly enjoy the game for all of its other goodies. In fact, it, along with PoE1, is now my go-to game for replay.

I also finished the game, despite the very obvious flaws in the writing. However, on replay, I found that I couldn't generate enough interest: once you get to the final chapters and the House at the Edge of Time, the encounters become both repetitive and cruel, and so far I have felt there's no enjoyment to be found in going through all that stuff again. So I stopped earlier. I am maybe 65 or 75 per cent there, and I know the end is looming, and it just doesn't appeal to me.

But yes, I agree, the game does have a lot of merit, and I did enjoy my playthrough, even if the writing was cheesy.

[kanisatha]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

I also finished the game, despite the very obvious flaws in the writing. However, on replay, I found that I couldn't generate enough interest: once you get to the final chapters and the House at the Edge of Time, the encounters become both repetitive and cruel, and so far I have felt there's no enjoyment to be found in going through all that stuff again. So I stopped earlier. I am maybe 65 or 75 per cent there, and I know the end is looming, and it just doesn't appeal to me.

But yes, I agree, the game does have a lot of merit, and I did enjoy my playthrough, even if the writing was cheesy.

I agree. That last chapter (which is the extra chapter they added in late; there is an option for ending the game without going through that last chapter) is a painful slog, and I also quit playing sometime before that (in replays). But then again, when replaying other old cRPGs, all the IE games, NwN games, Dragon Age games, even the PoE games, I do the same thing. I play only through about 80-90% of the game and then get tired of it or else find that last bit too much of a painful slog.

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, kanisatha said:

I agree. That last chapter (which is the extra chapter they added in late; there is an option for ending the game without going through that last chapter)

Wow. I didn't know this. What is that option, and where/when can you take it?

[kanisatha]

21 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Wow. I didn't know this. What is that option, and where/when can you take it?

Spoiler

That's the option involving researching the curses within kingdom management. I believe you have to have researched 13(?) of the curses. Then, when you have that confrontation with the Lantern King and Nyrissa, you (a) need to be in the position to restore Nyrissa's heart, and (b) have researched those curses so you can lift the curse on her thus freeing her. If you can only do (a), which is how things always are for me, then the curse still remains on her, and she will sadly tell you this after thanking you for restoring her heart, saying she is still not free of the Lantern King's control. Then, the Lantern King, being angry with you for fixing his toy (Nyrissa), curses your kingdom thus resulting in that new extra final chapter. If you can fully free Nyrissa right then and there, you just end up fighting the Lantern King there as your final battle, along with Nyrissa and any other allies you had recruited in that chapter.

 

[xzar_monty]

Very interesting, thanks a lot for that! I don't know whether that can happen in my game, but maybe we'll see.

[Mazisky]

On 4/20/2021 at 3:31 PM, xzar_monty said:

I also finished the game, despite the very obvious flaws in the writing. However, on replay, I found that I couldn't generate enough interest: once you get to the final chapters and the House at the Edge of Time, the encounters become both repetitive and cruel, and so far I have felt there's no enjoyment to be found in going through all that stuff again. So I stopped earlier. I am maybe 65 or 75 per cent there, and I know the end is looming, and it just doesn't appeal to me.

But yes, I agree, the game does have a lot of merit, and I did enjoy my playthrough, even if the writing was cheesy.

The problem with Kingmaker is that is too long and there isn't much variety, most of the game are forests and meadows, few dungeons  and lot of slow-paced hours in-between.

WOTR fixes this, pacing is very intense with few moments to relax and there is a lot more of scenery variety, such as cities, castles, etc. along with the typical wilderness forests.

Not to mention interiors are incredibly detailed now and a pleasure to go through, lot of different rooms filled with objects and assets as opposed to very barren and copy-pasted Kingmaker dungeons\interiors

I am always opposed to 3d because it gives a very flat feeling compared to the more detailed 2d (see NWN or DAO vs Pillars), but WOTC is the first 3D Crpg which is as much detailed as a 2d one.

example:

 

Also the game will be shorter than Kingmaker with an estimated 80 hs, so more quality over quantity

Edited April 21, 2021 by Mazisky

[bugarup]

On 4/21/2021 at 5:22 PM, kanisatha said:

  Reveal hidden contents

That's the option involving researching the curses within kingdom management. I believe you have to have researched 13(?) of the curses. Then, when you have that confrontation with the Lantern King and Nyrissa, you (a) need to be in the position to restore Nyrissa's heart, and (b) have researched those curses so you can lift the curse on her thus freeing her. If you can only do (a), which is how things always are for me, then the curse still remains on her, and she will sadly tell you this after thanking you for restoring her heart, saying she is still not free of the Lantern King's control. Then, the Lantern King, being angry with you for fixing his toy (Nyrissa), curses your kingdom thus resulting in that new extra final chapter. If you can fully free Nyrissa right then and there, you just end up fighting the Lantern King there as your final battle, along with Nyrissa and any other allies you had recruited in that chapter.

 

It's not necessary -

Spoiler

I didn't research sh†t and when defeated Nyrissa wanted to tell me her sob story I said "No" and shot her in the face because at that moment I was fed up with both her and game itself. But lo behold, I guess I insulted GM's feelingsies  by dismissing their precious GMNPC so nonchalantly and had to do Great Ball's of Fire chapter anyway. My save file names of that chapter consist mostly of expletives.

 

[kanisatha]

On 4/22/2021 at 11:12 AM, bugarup said:

It's not necessary -

  Hide contents

I didn't research sh†t and when defeated Nyrissa wanted to tell me her sob story I said "No" and shot her in the face because at that moment I was fed up with both her and game itself. But lo behold, I guess I insulted GM's feelingsies  by dismissing their precious GMNPC so nonchalantly and had to do Great Ball's of Fire chapter anyway. My save file names of that chapter consist mostly of expletives.

 

Spoiler

Yes that's what I'm saying. You have to completely save Nyrissa for the game to end without going into the extra chapter, meaning not just restore her heart but also lift the curse on her. Killing Nyrissa is not saving her.

 

[thelee]

On 4/19/2021 at 3:39 AM, Mazisky said:

I've found the difference between Poe1 and 2 too noticeable, Poe1 was competent and immersive, engaging till the end, Deadfire writing felt like it was written by an amateur young guy, some characters speak like american teenagers (which i bet the writers also were american teenagers) and totally out of place, feels like playing with American Pie movie guys and not adult people like in POE1,  if you can't see the difference I think you may be too biased only because you like the game.

already discussed at length already, but just wanted to personally add that I thought PoE1 was overwrought at times (Deadfire is still pretty flowery), and I think it has a lot to do with Chris Avellone's contribution, whom some people really like to stan here. I really enjoyed Grieving Mother and Durance's arc (and as characters I still think they're great), but after the first time it was just an immense amount of overwrought prose to dig through just to finish their companion quests.

 

On 4/21/2021 at 12:35 PM, Mazisky said:

The problem with Kingmaker is that is too long and there isn't much variety, most of the game are forests and meadows, few dungeons  and lot of slow-paced hours in-between.

WOTR fixes this, pacing is very intense with few moments to relax and there is a lot more of scenery variety, such as cities, castles, etc. along with the typical wilderness forests.

Well, this is promising since I really disliked the encounter design in Kingmaker. But I'm still skeptical because I find that Pathfinder 1e is not a very great system as a computer game (I have higher hopes for Pathfinder 2e, but I don't know when that'll ever get adapted into a CRPG). At this point it's such an oooold system that it's kind of amazing that they're sticking with it for another game (I mean, I get it, they put a lot of time into their engine so they want to recoup those costs).

[kanisatha]

37 minutes ago, thelee said:

Well, this is promising since I really disliked the encounter design in Kingmaker. But I'm still skeptical because I find that Pathfinder 1e is not a very great system as a computer game (I have higher hopes for Pathfinder 2e, but I don't know when that'll ever get adapted into a CRPG). At this point it's such an oooold system that it's kind of amazing that they're sticking with it for another game (I mean, I get it, they put a lot of time into their engine so they want to recoup those costs).

Well, their devs themselves have been commenting a lot recently (including in an online Q&A session recently) that the engine they're currently using has significant limitations (esp. for level-building) that they don't like. So I expect they will want to move on from it.

My personal expectation is that after WotR they will take a break from fantasy and do a Starfinder game instead (based on their recent ads for new hires). Then, after that and whenever they return to Pathfinder, they will transition to 2e.

[NotDumbEnough]

I don't think it was Avellone's problem though. Most of your "Watcher vision" sequences are overwrought in general, so it was probably a team decision. Dean Domino in FO:NV, also written by him, was perfectly fine. Cheeky, and a nasty piece of work like Durance, but usually gets to the point in his dialogue.