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Politics... US election edition (2020 almost over, read all about it!)


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5 hours ago, Hiro Protagonist said:

This is a great clip from 60 Minutes (USA) showing absolutely no electoral fraud in Georgia and how the official explains what Rudy Giuliani cherry picks from the surveillance video.


 

Doesn't stop the conspiracy types, though.  They claim the Republican observers were tricked into going home and that the count shouldn't have continued (even in the face of the GA law that only says observers are allowed, not required being presented to them), that the election people once the observers left pulled different official tubs than the ones they put under the table for the count, and that people were scanning the same ballots multiple times, you just don't see it on this video.

As I mentioned earlier, there are no facts that can defeat a conspiracy theory.  They're fact-proof for the believer.

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So primary contention is that there was voter fraud in Pennsylvania and Georgia right? So tell you what. Let’s do this. Let’s move Georgia and Pennsylvania over to Trump. Trump won forget the recounts Trump actually won. Guess what? Joe Biden still won the election. that’s why it’s so pointless to talk about this. No combination of two states gets Trump over 270. 
 

 

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Get off my lawn!

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8 hours ago, Skarpen said:

LOL. Great backpedaling technique there, skipper.

Not really. Short term fluctuations in stock level rarely determine long term success. It's already bouncing up again this morning.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I was thinking this morning: the South finally managed to sack the Capitol. Not really funny, I know. Dark humor.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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58 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

So primary contention is that there was voter fraud in Pennsylvania and Georgia right? So tell you what. Let’s do this. Let’s move Georgia and Pennsylvania over to Trump. Trump won forget the recounts Trump actually won. Guess what? Joe Biden still won the election. that’s why it’s so pointless to talk about this. No combination of two states gets Trump over 270. 
 

 

From what some of the "protestors" were saying, think it's more than just those 2 - I think Wisconsin and/or Michigan are suspect in their minds ?  Course there was one guy that said "all 7 swing states" were stolen.   Times like this you wonder where the education system failed. 😛

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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37 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

So primary contention is that there was voter fraud in Pennsylvania and Georgia right? So tell you what. Let’s do this. Let’s move Georgia and Pennsylvania over to Trump. Trump won forget the recounts Trump actually won. Guess what? Joe Biden still won the election. that’s why it’s so pointless to talk about this. No combination of two states gets Trump over 270. 

The lawsuits Trump filed, as far as I know, concentrated on Georgia (16), Arizona (11), Pennsylvania (20) with additional efforts in Wisconsin (10), New Jersey (14), and Michigan (16).   I don't think their goal was just one or two states, I think there goal was to always flip three or more to secure Tump getting over 270 electoral votes.

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4 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

So primary contention is that there was voter fraud in Pennsylvania and Georgia right? 

 

there has been no actual litigated claims of voter fraud in pennsylvania since one postal employee retracted a fraud claim after admitting they had no firsthand knowledge o' such.

the current issue related to pennsylvania is kinda peculiar given what  were demanded by those objecting to the electoral count on january 6 in Congress. the criticism o' pennsylvania is that the law passed overwhelming by the pennsylvania legislature back in october o' 2019, in spite o' a gop majority, was unconstitutional because it expanded mail-in-voting and the argument is that the pennsylvania constitution forbids such an expansion. 

as you might imagine, the pennsylvania legislators who authored and voted on their new voting law debated its constitutionality in 2019. no republicans sought to challenge the new law after it were signed by the govenor nor even after the pennsylvania primaries. weren't until after trump appeared to lose the election that gop lawmakers complained 'bout act 77. in point o' fact, the delay in bringing their case was the fatal flaw in their claim and such is the basis for gop fed senator complaints... as odd as that may sound.

laches, which we has mentioned more than once, were basis for denying relief to the gop. so this is one situation where those trump followers is correct that a case was never decided on the merits. 'cause the pennsylvania gop cannot succesful bring a case on the merits until the next election, senators hawley and cruz figured they could make it a federal issue? regardless, in spite o' the protests 'bout fraud, is not actual a fraud issue. 

the thing is, there just isn't a basis for federal legislators or courts to intervene.  all the fundamental republican values o' state's rights and federalism got lost somewhere during the past four years, but regardless, there just isn't a basis for US Congressmen to interfere with the state laws or court decisions o' pennsylvania particular when it comes to an already completed election. would never survive a SCOTUS challenge.

now perhaps Congress could pass some kinda comprehensive voter rights law which would affect future federal elections, if such a law were narrow tailored so as to be Constitutional. the thing is, the process o' counting o' electoral votes doesn't offer a mechanic for creating such ad hoc legislation. 

and yes, flipping two states would not give trump a win, which is why the renegade senators were objecting to arizona and other states as well. 

the thing is, what hawley and cruz were seeking would not have changed the election even if it were granted. in spite o' the Constitutional demand for Congress to count the votes sent to them by states, ('cause, y'know, federalism,) the aforementioned hucksters were demanding a ten day audit o' state voting practices (georgia had multiple audits and THREE recounts alone) would not have resulted in a change in the election results. unlike the 1876 election when there was indeed a question as to the legitimacy o' state governments, with multiple legislatures sending electoral vote certificates to the US Congress, the 2020 election resulted in each state sending a single electoral count to Congress.  

the january 6 objections by republicans were theatre, which in and of itself is hardly unique. is frequent a handful o' Congressmen who object to the electoral college counts just so they may go on the record and get national attention for whaterver is their issue. is ordinarily a bit o' harmless political theatre and everybody is aware the objections ain't meant to change the election results. 

2021 were different. were not just harmless theatre. numerous Congressmen and the President had convinced millions that hawley, cruz and/or pence could change the results o' the election on January 6. tens o' thousands responded to the President's call to come to washington on january 6. and many thousands responded to trump's call to arms when they stormed the capitol with hundreds screaming for pence's head as they broke down doors and assaulted police. 

btw, yesterday, eight of the remaining potential election cases SCOTUS has been ignoring were having requests for expediency denied w/o explanation. is only two other cases the Court could choose to consider and those is the pa sequestered votes which could not alter the outcome o' the election anyways. as o' january 20, all the cases become moot, so...

the most egregious cases o' fraud related to the most recent presidential election were committed after the election.

 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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1 hour ago, Amentep said:

The lawsuits Trump filed, as far as I know, concentrated on Georgia (16), Arizona (11), Pennsylvania (20) with additional efforts in Wisconsin (10), New Jersey (14), and Michigan (16).   I don't think their goal was just one or two states, I think there goal was to always flip three or more to secure Tump getting over 270 electoral votes.

a minor quibble.

the goal were to prevent biden from achieving 270 electoral votes. if neither trump or biden achieved the requisite 270, then there is a mechanic by which Congress could insert itself into the contest meant to be resolved by the states and decide the Presidential election themselves. one vote per state. at the moment, there are more red states. 

far more significant than the pga deciding not to have trump courses host their golf events, 

Deutsche Bank to Pull Back From Business With Trump and His Company

The German lender has decided not to conduct any further business with Trump and his company, said two people with knowledge of the matter, asking not to be identified because the deliberations were confidential. Trump owes the Frankfurt-based lender more than $300 million.

Signature Bank, the New York lender that’s long catered to his family, is closing two personal accounts in which Trump held about $5.3 million, a spokesperson for the firm said on Monday. It’s also calling for the president to step aside before his term officially ends on Jan. 20.

oh, and...

HA! Good Fun! 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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For the discussion points..

Shamelessly stolen -- Author unknown
Huge numbers of our population believe in a complete alternate reality. Alternate facts as it were. Just as intensely as I believe they are deluded, they think I am the one who is deluded. Maybe I am. So how can I be confident in my perception? I have found that in times of political confusion, particularly when emotions are running high and creating tunnel vision, the presence of Nazis can be an extremely helpful indicator.

If I am attending a local demonstration or event and I see Nazis, neo-Nazis, casual Nazis, master race Nazis, or the latest-whatever-uber-mythology-Nazis, I figure out which side they are on.


If they are on my side of the demonstration, I am on the wrong side.

It is tough to argue moral equivalence when I am standing next to a Nazi. Look to my right. Is there a guy wearing a 6MWE (6 million wasn’t enough) t-shirt? I am on the wrong side. Look to my left. If that guy is wearing a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt? Wrong side. Are Speakers being applauded for referring to things that Hitler got right? Wrong side. Team-spirit face paint and hat with animal horns? This is actually an unclear indicator that could mean anything, but safest to keep my distance from that guy anyway, even at a football game.


However, I can always, always, always rely on the presence of Nazis as a guiding light through a fog of disinformation. Some things are relative, and politics can absolutely have it’s opposing sides and grey areas. However, evil and good are absolute, as are the lessons of history.

 

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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I'm pretty sure most of the stop the steal crowd are focused less on the legal options of how to overturn the results, and more on the fact they voted for Trump, so he must have won. This is reinforced by Trump himself.

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7 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm pretty sure most of the stop the steal crowd are focused less on the legal options of how to overturn the results, and more on the fact they voted for Trump, so he must have won. This is reinforced by Trump himself.

I'd say that they don't necessarily believe that he did win, so much as that he should be president regardless of his loss. Trump and Republicans will spend the next four years reinforcing this, and it will be an effective strategy in winning primaries. A significant portion of people will care as much about the MAGA Putsch as they did Muslim bans or kids in cages so there's a decent chance some Trump and cronies who incited the riot get elected to or retain positions of power over the next few years.

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"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"I'm fine with humanity being wiped out" - majestic

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30 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm pretty sure most of the stop the steal crowd are focused less on the legal options of how to overturn the results, and more on the fact they voted for Trump, so he must have won. This is reinforced by Trump himself.

You probably are pretty close to the mark here. People have become so politically insular and segregated that the people who voted for both Trump and Biden literally don’t know anybody who did otherwise. As far as I can remember this is a fairly new aspect of American life. Where peoples social circles are politically homogeneous. It’s far from unusual for Americans to sort themselves on one side of the issue or another. Slavery and temperance were  good examples. But what we are seeing today seems rather unusual to me.

Get off my lawn!

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Right now, Norma Torres is certainly making a case for getting rid of DT ASAP. Well spoken - she really drives home the severity of everything that happened on Capitol Hill and before that fatal moment.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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137265283_10157940374950496_210507523119

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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...

well, ok then.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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A lot of religious and business leaders have turned on Trump after the riot. He will still have a core of supporters in the Republican party, but many others will view him in a new light after this. I have to think he'd been viewed as an unattractive candidate in 2024 who won't bring out many voters, not to mention he'll now have difficulty trying to attract campaign funding, so that may burn his primary chances.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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@Gromnir I just read that US lawyers are looking into the possibility of suing Donald in civil court after he (hopefully) steps down as president, holding him liable for his role before the Capitol Hill debacle and even during and after it. What is the outlook for this legally? 

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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On 1/7/2021 at 5:41 PM, majestic said:

Well look at Jon Schaffer right in the middle of the charge:

jon-schaffer_capitol_trump-supporter_get

 

Kay, so given the lyrics of A Glorious Burden this isn't much of a surprise, but still, I mean, come on. Guess he figured he won't be touring for a while anyway. :p

https://www.nme.com/en_au/news/music/iced-earth-singer-jon-schaffer-among-trump-supporters-who-stormed-capitol-2851835

I'm more surprised Mustaine wasn't there.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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