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Coronavirus Goes Fourth


Amentep

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Except for the fact throughout Africa you find these refugee camps that many governments use and no one  accuses these governments of being " un-African " .....only SA gets labeled like this

Hey, the worlds first concentration camps in the (modern sense) were introduced in SA. Although they were built and operated by the British to eradicate the Boer population. Here in Australia we send illegal immigrants to "overseas holding facilities", providing work for those poor people in Papua New-Guinea and elsewhere. As for people returning to Australia these days, they get sent to hotels for two weeks of quarantine. With guards preventing them from leaving their hotel rooms.

 

True to form, the government made a fubar and allowed Australian Open to go ahead. Now we have almost a hundred pissed off tennis stars and their entourage because they are forced to stick to same quarantine rules as everyone else, regardless of how famous you are and how much rules for normal, mortal people isn't supposed to apply to you.

 

(edit: At this point in time, it would otherwise only be Australian citizen, residents and Kiwi's that are allowed into Australia at all)

(edit 2: Even if vaccines turns out to be effective, Australia's borders are likely to be closed to the outside world for the rest of 2021 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55699581)

 

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23 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Hey, the worlds first concentration camps in the (modern sense) were introduced in SA. Although they were built and operated by the British to eradicate the Boer population. Here in Australia we send illegal immigrants to "overseas holding facilities", providing work for those poor people in Papua New-Guinea and elsewhere. As for people returning to Australia these days, they get sent to hotels for two weeks of quarantine. With guards preventing them from leaving their hotel rooms.

 

True to form, the government made a fubar and allowed Australian Open to go ahead. Now we have almost a hundred pissed off tennis stars and their entourage because they are forced to stick to same quarantine rules as everyone else, regardless of how famous you are and how much rules for normal, mortal people isn't supposed to apply to you.

 

(edit: At this point in time, it would otherwise only be Australian citizen, residents and Kiwi's that are allowed into Australia at all)

I appreciate your interest and views in certain historical events, some of them I have also researched. Like the  terrible reality of the Boer concentration camps which also lead to the deaths of black women and children, not just Boer women and children, as many black people helped the Boers against the British as they lived on the Boer farms and the British were considered their enemy as well 

 Also I have a direct family connection with the Second Boer War as basically all my family, on my dads and stepmoms, side came to SA with the British army in 1899 to fight the Boers. They were simple soldiers of course and they had nothing to do with the architecture and creation of the Concentration camps. This was Kitchener's idea and its an ongoing debate if the intention was the eradication of the  Boer women and children or, as I believe, it was about getting the Boers to surrender as the war was dragging on and the Boers prudently would not face the British in open battle but used effective guerilla warfare tactics 

But either way the outcome was ghastly and inhumane and thousands of Boer and black women and children died, so I would never deny it happened. I am just asking if it was intentional ? 

 

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/women-and-children-white-concentration-camps-during-anglo-boer-war-1900-1902

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/black-concentration-camps-during-anglo-boer-war-2-1900-1902

But Gothfuscious more importantly you have raised before your concerns with the Oz perceived Corona response being draconian

Yet Australia is considered one of the few countries that is not overwhelmed  by the virus. So you see the pattern and corollary? If you live in a  Democracy,  like most of us, its  important to have laws like your government has implemented to ensure compliance from citizens. That seems to be the most effective way to address the virus spread until the vaccine is available 

So forced quarantines in hotels with guards I can understand is unsettling but its has been very successful in ensuring your country hasn't been ravaged by the pandemic. Trust me most of us would accept that reality any day as opposed to  our current realities with the virus spreading exponentially 

So as I said previously you guys should be thankful your government has implemented certain laws and enforced regulations because the alternative is much, much worse 

 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

So as I said previously you guys should be thankful your government has implemented certain laws and enforced regulations because the alternative is much, much worse

Actually, kudos for that to the state governments, regardless of political affiliation. The moron in Canberra did what he does best in a crisis situation, nothing.

 

They formed a national council kind of thing between state PM's and sorted it out, coordinating stuff. The federal governments only contribution was to follow the instructions provided and actually complaining and trying to wreck the efforts, attempting at times to overrule the local PM's measures when his rich and powerful friends whinged about the measures being bad for their share holders, but in the end, he realized he would be in such deep **** if he did that, he sort of forgot about his/their demands along the way. So, no thanks to the federal government and thanks to the state governments. I'm sure@Guard Dogwould appreciate the morale of that story ;)

edit: When Scott Morrison tried to order the states to open their state borders, the state PM's pretty much just said **** you, and deployed state police to the borders to enforce the border closures, ignoring the barking of Clive Palmer and the whimpering yipping of his pet dog (the federal PM). Queensland probably build enough walls on the border to New South Wales to make Trump green with envy 😁

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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3 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Actually, kudos for that to the state governments, regardless of political affiliation. The moron in Canberra did what he does best in a crisis situation, nothing.

 

They formed a national council kind of thing between state PM's and sorted it out, coordinating stuff. The federal governments only contribution was to follow the instructions provided and actually complaining and trying to wreck the efforts, attempting at times to overrule the local PM's measures when his rich and powerful friends whinged about the measures being bad for their share holders, but in the end, he realized he would be in such deep **** if he did that, he sort of forgot about his/their demands along the way. So, no thanks to the federal government and thanks to the state governments. I'm sure @Guard Dogwould appreciate such things actually happening somewhere in the world ;)

 

I hear you but without debating the semantics of who is responsible for the Oz lockdown measures what is the real debate should be "has it effectively stopped the virus spread " ?

That should be the most important factor in how we reflect on our numerous governments measures and plans and if they are indeed draconian. This is a good example of " the end justifies the means" ...its not often we should look at policies in this way but this is IMO definitely an acceptable example to support that aphorism 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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9 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I hear you but without debating the semantics of who is responsible for the Oz lockdown measures what is the real debate should be "has it effectively stopped the virus spread " ?

It has. Covid is easy to stop. Prevent people from moving around. Wear masks. Use hand sanitizer after touching anything, keep social distance. The problem is peoples selfishness. I don't want to. Why should *I* wear a mask. Joe got sick and he wore a mask all the time! (never mind Joe went to a basket ball game where 4500 people in the crowd had covid and werent wearing masks) etc. I.e. lockdown is great, as long as it doesn't inconvenience *me*

 

The Me is the problem. Rather than thinking how can I and We solve this, it's always how can You solve this for me? It's all about attitude (and I would say enlightenment, as the Britannica puts it, the celebration of reason)

 

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

My elderly-ish (69) sister and her husband got their first round of shots, the second to be administered on the 25th. She resides in the Wild Wild West (Florida) so shes super pumped to have received the shot.

Wasnt she worried about the deep state controlling her mind with the vaccine ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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You think the Moderna vaccine contains Democrat mRNA?

 

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Just found out today what my ranking is for the vaccine. The state is going to provide all state employees with the vaccine given out by order of age, general health, and job responsibilities. Law enforcement and emergency services are of course first. In fact most of them have received both doses now. Because of my age and health the fact that I’m single and have a job that does not require me to interact with the public means I am in the last group. No biggie. I can count on one hand all the times I’ve left my home in the last year. Well maybe two hands.

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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1 hour ago, Gorth said:

You think the Moderna vaccine contains Democrat mRNA?

Worse.  Boston.

Edited by Malcador
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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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5 hours ago, Gorth said:

You think the Moderna vaccine contains Democrat mRNA?

Don't be silly.

Obviously the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine will turn you Republican as they contain RNA- 'Republican, North America'; it's in the name sheeple. OTOH the AZOxford and Sputnik vaccines contain DNA- that's why Soros/ Gates chose adenovirus, it's a DNA virus- and will make you vote Democrat.

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On 1/19/2021 at 12:10 AM, Gorth said:

Hey, the worlds first concentration camps in the (modern sense) were introduced in SA.

Arguably the United States has that dubious 'honor' with structures such as Fort Snelling in 1862 and you also had the concurrent use of camps by, once again, the United States in the early twentieth century in the Philippines as well as the German use of camps against the Herero and Nama although I believe that the most notorious, Shark Island, did come after the events of South Africa.

However, that also depends on what you define a concentration camp to be and if it actively needs to be an extermination center, that is to say a death camp, or not.

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9 minutes ago, Deadly_Nightshade said:

Arguably the United States has that dubious 'honor' with structures such as Fort Snelling in 1862 and you also had the concurrent use of camps by, once again, the United States in the early twentieth century in the Philippines as well as the German use of camps against the Herero and Nama although I believe that the most notorious, Shark Island, did come after the events of South Africa.

However, that also depends on what you define a concentration camp to be and if it actively needs to be an extermination center, that is to say a death camp, or not.

This is historically accurate, the horrendous reality of Shark Island did come after the SA concentration camps and in these camps their was deliberate and planned experimentation  on the Herero people. This was not the case in the Boer War and what occurred under the British 

I am not trying to undermine the loss of lives of  Boer and black women and children in the SA camps but it wasnt due to experimentation and mass killings so the definition should matter?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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You can probably trace the need for concentration camps back to the Thirty Years War, when the practice of releasing POWs without ransom at the end of the conflict became enshrined in the treaty language. Prior to that prisoners were often killed, enslaved, and/or held for ransom.

Anyway, concentration camps (and refugee camps) are really a logistical necessity.

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30 minutes ago, rjshae said:

 

Anyway, concentration camps (and refugee camps) are really a logistical necessity.

Refugee camps are a necessity in many cases  but what do you mean by concentration camps are a necessity ?

Because you have to  keep people and combatants  imprisoned during most wars but the conditions can still be humane ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Refugee camps are a necessity in many cases  but what do you mean by concentration camps are a necessity ?

Because you have to  keep people and combatants  imprisoned during most wars but the conditions can still be humane ?

 

Well, the Geneva convention should apply to all signatories, even if they don't follow it religiously. Not sure what else you'd call them that isn't a political trigger word. Internment camps can be just as charged.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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17 hours ago, rjshae said:

 

Well, the Geneva convention should apply to all signatories, even if they don't follow it religiously. Not sure what else you'd call them that isn't a political trigger word. Internment camps can be just as charged.

Good point, the words can equally cause understandable and sometimes irrational offense or concern to some like a trigger word 

Personally I am fine having this type of debate because I will always try to argue the facts and or historical precedent and I dont think I would offend anyone who wants to have a rational and robust debate about any topic that is based on real examples which you can provide links to show people ?

But I hear you about the broader point 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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4 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

A bit too conspiratory, but I'd not be surprised by some level information manipulations and higher than needed restrictions to kick Trump out. (he can't handle the crisis! Crowd) 

Imo, he would have won reelection if not for Covid-19. Silver lining I guess.

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1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Imo, he would have won reelection if not for Covid-19. Silver lining I guess.

I agree, the mishandling of the pandemic by Trump was the main contributing factor that allowed Biden to win

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Denmark is confiscating syringes and other material headed for, and paid for, by Sweden.

I'd like to tell Denmark that we don't have to wait for Kattegatt to freeze over nowadays. 😈

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Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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Here in Serbia we have access to Pfizer, Sputnik V and the whatever the Chinese one is called. People can chose which one they want (online sign-up) and based on availability get one as soon as possible, which seems to be very soon as not a lot of people are signing up. Opinions are split on which one is the best, some like the Chinese one because it takes the classical approach that is "true and tested" of using the dead virus, the news say most have signed up for the Russian one and some want the Pfizer because it's the only one that is acknowledged by the west, they fear that if Corona passports are introduced in the EU they will not be able to travel with the other two.

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