Politics US Edition Volume II

[Guard Dog]

11 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

So like

 

just better schools?

Hopefully. Somehow I'm still picturing barbed wire and armed guards though 

Besides, to quote Assata Shakur “No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them. Nobody is going to teach you your true history, teach you your true heroes, if they know that that knowledge will help set you free.”

IMO the best education you can possibly get is ultimately self directed. The best service a public school can give (beyond the basic curriculum) to to teach children how to learn on their own and inspire the desire to do so. It won't take for everyone I guess. But the world needs ditch diggers too.

One thing that gives me hope is the one teacher on this board tries very hard to do exactly that!

[Hurlshort]

In related news: https://www.yahoo.com/news/teaching-pandemic-not-sustainable-194123455.html

[ComradeYellow]

Biden says he will veto any bill that provides national healthcare coverage.

This could be his ultimate demise because this for-profit health system we have now is absolutely not equipped to deal with the pandemic, as has been illustrated repeatedly throughout the year.

If the pandemic rolls on throughout his term with no kind of nation-wide solution than he is cooked.

The only reason why Trump lost the election is because of his abysmal response to the pandemic.  Yes, it's scary to think that's the only reason he lost, but it's probably true and Biden is hardly upping the ante.

[Guard Dog]

Libertarians Have No Home in Either Dominant Political Party

Mostly agree. I still fail to see how refusing the vote for what I despise is somehow "wasting" my vote. 

[Chairchucker]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Mostly agree. I still fail to see how refusing the vote for what I despise is somehow "wasting" my vote. 

I'm not entirely sure about the nuances of voting in the USA; in Australia, if a 'third party' gets a certain number of votes, it means additional funding. Also I guess it may mean that the major parties see where they're losing votes to the third party and try to pander to those votes by adopting some of their policies. So I guess that's a way in which it could be seen as not wasting one's vote.

 

If you're measuring purely by the effect the vote has in the actual election, though, there would've been no difference to the election if every single third party voter stayed home. So in that sense, their votes are wasted.

[ComradeYellow]

You get national funding if you receive 5% of the vote in the U.S.

[Achilles]

4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Libertarians Have No Home in Either Dominant Political Party

Mostly agree. I still fail to see how refusing the vote for what I despise is somehow "wasting" my vote. 

There's a time for idealism and a time for pragmatism. Neither one should dictate every decision.

4 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Biden says he will veto any bill that provides national healthcare coverage.

I'd need to see his comments in context before delving too deep on this one.

Unfortunately, too many people in the U.S. think there's a magic switch that will fix all of our healthcare issues, but the bad guys won't flip it because they love being evil just too damned much. The reality is that our healthcare system is a ****ing mess and is going to take a while to fix. There are some things that we *should* be doing right away to start making things better. "Medicare for all" (assuming for now that is what is meant by "national healthcare coverage") is not one of them. That is the eventual goal, not the next step.

[Guard Dog]

35 minutes ago, Achilles said:

There's a time for idealism and a time for pragmatism. Neither one should dictate every decision.

 

The Dems and the GOP are offering us two different flavors of heavy handed authoritarianism. Where do you turn when it’s the authoritarianism that is unacceptable, not the flavor? Some principles are so important they may and must be inflexible as Mr. Lincoln put it. I don’t think putting libertarians in charge of every thing is a particularly good idea. But someone needs to advocate for sanity and restraint in government. No one else is.

[ComradeYellow]

2 hours ago, Achilles said:

Unfortunately, too many people in the U.S. think there's a magic switch that will fix all of our healthcare issues, but the bad guys won't flip it because they love being evil just too damned much. The reality is that our healthcare system is a ****ing mess and is going to take a while to fix. There are some things that we *should* be doing right away to start making things better. "Medicare for all" (assuming for now that is what is meant by "national healthcare coverage") is not one of them. That is the eventual goal, not the next step.

"How are you gonna pay for it" is the most common response from Conservatives.

My answer is simple: "Cut the military budget in half, you won't notice a thing!"

"What about Russia and China?"

"What about Russia and China?!  Their military budget is miniscule compared to ours and last I checked it was the U.S. with bases and eternal conquest throughout the world, not them."

[BruceVC]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:48 PM, ComradeMaster said:

I know, it may come off as a shock to a western elitist, but these countries are actually quite politically united and are putting forth big plans for the century.

On 11/29/2020 at 6:32 AM, BruceVC said:

I like you for several reasons but particularly because you generally are prepared to engage in debates and sometimes these topics are on the opposite side ideologically of what I believe....well sort of you are on the " opposite  " because as I am sure you will remember you also support the idea of Social Democracy like the Nordic countries which are not at all  like the autocratic states of Russia and China. The Nordic countries have rights and institutions that include freedom of speech, free media and independent courts from there Democratically elected governments. Russia and China dont have these important parts of what makes our societies great places to live which is exactly why many of our countries are the targets of mass immigration and the illegal immigration is the problem many our governments grapple with 

But you can see the inconsistency with what you have mentioned to me in the past on this forum and I hope you will clarify what you have said. Do you support the Nordic countries and there hybrid capitalist\socialist systems or do you support Russia and China's system of government....I am unsure how anyone could truly support both in any serious ideological debate about what are the best ways to govern any country?

 

Comrade I am a little disappointed you did not respond to my simple question that you  personally have raised around different systems of governments ?

I have always assumed you do have an informed view based on historical precedence but basing that on possible hybrid solutions for countries like the USA ....so for example do you think the USA should be more socialist ....its not an uncommon view to have but what are you suggesting?

And you keep mentioning Russia and China as having progressive political or social policies that dont exist in the Western countries which puts them at a disadvantage to Russia and China? Its difficult  to understand such an extreme comparison but I dont want to come across  as dismissive or supercilious and guess what you mean by that so can you give some examples of the advantage that Russia and China over the USA or the UK or other Western countries.

I can think of maybe 1 or 2 but that is a small number compared to  the 15-20 that Western countries have over any autocratic state 

 

 

[rjshae]

Quote

 

"Anybody who thinks the election went well, like that idiot Krebs who used to be the head of cybersecurity. That guy is a class A moron. He should be drawn and quartered. Taken out at dawn and shot."

--Joe diGenova, Attorney for Donald Trump

 

Such a class act this Administration.

[ComradeYellow]

43 minutes ago, rjshae said:

Such a class act this Administration.

Yes it's apparent that the Republican Party is happily embracing fascism.  I'd honestly wish they chose Ted Cruz over this guy, at least his supporters were bearable and even somewhat intelligent on social issues.

What can you do huh?  The wine has been spilled and we have no immediate response to it.  Voting for Biden is not a long term solution, the Trump base isn't going anywhere so we obviously need a 3rd party to form a coalition against them.

[Guard Dog]

This isn’t fascism. I don’t think there really is a word for what is going on in this administration. The scary thing he was probably unmoored  from reality the entire time and we’re only now getting a good look at just how much. First the election was rigged by the democrat controlled state legislatures of states that traditionally vote Democrat anyway. Then it was a conspiracy between Cuba, Venezuela, China, and now the FBI and the DOJ are complicit. And Kerbs. It’s pretty bizarre.

this administration has mostly been a train wreck. But you know the sad thing is there are a few accomplishments he could be proud of. He could have walked away from the office with dignity, with his head held high and resumed his old life. For five years down the road nobody will even hate him anymore. Ex presidents tend to be remembered favorably despite their performance in office. Just look at Jimmy Carter for crying out loud. But this recount business the lawsuits the idiotic tweets and statements the baseless conspiracy theories and having to be dragged kicking and screaming from office there will be no post presidency honeymoon for him. And whatever he did accomplish will be forgotten. 
 

it’s like leaving your job. The last thing everyone remembers about you is how you left. No matter what the circumstances of your departure be it voluntary or involuntary your shake everyone’s hand and tell them how great it was to know them and work with them even if it wasn’t true. At least that’s what normal people do but this guy was not normal

Edited December 1, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, rjshae said:

Such a class act this Administration.

Sort of funny to say idiocy warrants death, considering who his boss is.

  

3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

it’s like leaving your job. The last thing everyone remembers about you is how you left.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Malcador

[Achilles]

7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

The Dems and the GOP are offering us two different flavors of heavy handed authoritarianism. Where do you turn when it’s the authoritarianism that is unacceptable, not the flavor? Some principles are so important they may and must be inflexible as Mr. Lincoln put it. I don’t think putting libertarians in charge of every thing is a particularly good idea. But someone needs to advocate for sanity and restraint in government. No one else is.

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: you honestly believe that both parties are genuinely attempting to implement literal authoritarianism and your response is to vote third party? Not leave the country. Not run for office yourself. Not lead an insurrection. Vote third party.

I suspect that you and I define "authoritarianism" very differently.

I really like this guy and the two of you have at least a few things in common.

5 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

"How are you gonna pay for it" is the most common response from Conservatives.

My answer is simple: "Cut the military budget in half, you won't notice a thing!"

"What about Russia and China?"

"What about Russia and China?!  Their military budget is miniscule compared to ours and last I checked it was the U.S. with bases and eternal conquest throughout the world, not them."

I see what you did there

 

[213374U]

12 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: you honestly believe that both parties are genuinely attempting to implement literal authoritarianism and your response is to vote third party? Not leave the country. Not run for office yourself. Not lead an insurrection. Vote third party.

Some of those things require having resources, and others require having little to lose beyond your life. That rules them out as options for a majority of the population at this point -- the US just hasn't reached that level of societal collapse, yet.

There are also degrees of authoritarianism. Certainly Atatürk and Hitler were both authoritarians, but while the latter was the Nazi, the former is now regarded as a bit of an enlightened figure. It's a spectrum.

[Boeroer]

"How are you gonna pay for it" is a rather stupid question when all you have to do is to take a look at nearly every other western democracy.

The Nordic countries don't run hybrid capitalist\socialist systems by the way. They are running capitalism - but with a more dense social safety net and steeply progressing tax rates and/or luxury taxes (e.g. in Denmark a car will be taxed with 85% up to 150%).

In Germany that's called "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" (social market economy) - which sounds a bit like socialism but economists agree that it's still capitalism.
Also capitalism != free market economy. Actually unregulated capitalism hampers competition and destroys free market enconomy. Just try to build a car or to run a cell phone carrier: it doesn't matter how good your product would be and what a genius you are: the barrier to entry is just too high because of the needed capital and thus competition doesn't happen. With socialsm the capital goods (e.g. machines) would be owned by the people and companies would operate on them (maybe rent them). In that case the hurdles for entry would be low and innovation and competition would rise - at least in theory.  

The GDR had socialism - but it wasn't democratic and also they had a centrally planned economy (the opposite of a free market economy) which ultimately broke their neck. Same with USSR basically (but communism + planned ec.).

Afaik there hasn't been any serious attempt to establish any corruption-free democratic socialism with a social market economy.       

 

[Achilles]

22 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Some of those things require having resources, and others require having little to lose beyond your life. That rules them out as options for a majority of the population at this point -- the US just hasn't reached that level of societal collapse, yet.

There are also degrees of authoritarianism. Certainly Atatürk and Hitler were both authoritarians, but while the latter was the Nazi, the former is now regarded as a bit of an enlightened figure. It's a spectrum.

Everything you said here is true. Unfortunately - and I say this with love - Guard Dog is bad at nuance. His exact words were, "two different flavors of heavy handed authoritarianism". He doesn't appear to be acknowledging the spectrum, let alone conveying the idea that even if both political parties are on it, they occupy different spots. Existing government is bad in every way and the only thing that can save mankind is the clean, pure, healing light of libertarianism.

The trouble here is mixed messages. His words express a very serious problem, yet his actions do not. Either his words contain his actual convictions or his actions do. I know that if I honestly thought that both political parties were genuinely attempting to implement literal authoritarianism, I would be doing more than voting for a third party and talking about it on the internet.

Since we're here: if you lived in a country where your vote helped to determine your future leader and either Atatürk or Hitler were going to be next (assume a close race with 50/50 odds), would you vote for one of them or dismiss them both as authoritarians and let others decide? If you opted to vote, which one would you go for?

 

[213374U]

Fair enough. Whatever the establishment parties are pushing over there is not "heavy handed" authoritarianism. More like a slow but steady erosion of liberalism that is being replaced by trash tier ideologues, demagogue politicians and a monolithic bureaucracy. It is authoritarianism in the sense that the balance of individual rights and government authority keeps tipping in favor of the state as a nebulous representation of "the common good". Crucially lacking however are the overt abuse of state power to suppress political dissent and the formal abandonment of the principle of separation of powers.

As for your hypothetical question, I don't think there is a good answer. Neither figure existed a vacuum -- Atatürk was building a new national identity from the ruins of the Ottoman empire, and brutally suppressed the opposition including, but not limited to, gassing several thousand Kurds and Zazas. Germans at the time were mindful of the bloody Russian revolution and the communist attempts to overthrow the government in Germany, without forgetting a wounded national pride and abundant propaganda about a "knife in the back" and internal enemies. Supporting a tyrant-to-be is always a gamble in the hope that they'll know when to stop. Most don't. So presented with a contemporary and equivalent choice, I'd probably start considering getting the duck out of fodge or going full militia depending on my personal factors, while opposing both.

[Achilles]

2 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Fair enough. Whatever the establishment parties are pushing over there is not "heavy handed" authoritarianism. More like a slow but steady erosion of liberalism that is being replaced by trash tier ideologues, demagogue politicians and a monolithic bureaucracy. It is authoritarianism in the sense that the balance of individual rights and government authority keeps tipping in favor of the state as a nebulous representation of "the common good". Crucially lacking however are the overt abuse of state power to suppress political dissent and the formal abandonment of the principle of separation of powers.

Well said

Quote

As for your hypothetical question, I don't think there is a good answer. Neither figure existed a vacuum

Well, you're not playing, but that's ok. I think that the point I was hoping to make is buried in the subtext of your response and that we're in agreement

[HoonDing]

"But you know the sad thing is there are a few accomplishments he could be proud of."

 

[Malcador]

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2020/12/ohio-tea-party-leader-urges-trump-to-suspend-the-constitution-declare-martial-law-to-hold-new-vote.html

"Zawistowski said, "We wanted to express our concerns to the President, to the legislators, courts and Congress that We the People will NOT cede our exclusive Constitutional right to elect our Representatives to judges, lawyers, courts, Governors, Secretary’s of State, Congress, corrupt election officials and local politicians, the corrupt media - or Leftist threats of violence! It is OUR EXCLUSIVE RIGHT to elect our President and that sacred right has been infringed by the massive, planned, illegal election fraud conducted by corrupt Democrat/Socialist Party operatives across our nation to steal our vote. We will NOT stand for it."

 

[Achilles]

2 minutes ago, Malcador said:

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2020/12/ohio-tea-party-leader-urges-trump-to-suspend-the-constitution-declare-martial-law-to-hold-new-vote.html

"Zawistowski said, "We wanted to express our concerns to the President, to the legislators, courts and Congress that We the People will NOT cede our exclusive Constitutional right to elect our Representatives to judges, lawyers, courts, Governors, Secretary’s of State, Congress, corrupt election officials and local politicians, the corrupt media - or Leftist threats of violence! It is OUR EXCLUSIVE RIGHT to elect our President and that sacred right has been infringed by the massive, planned, illegal election fraud conducted by corrupt Democrat/Socialist Party operatives across our nation to steal our vote. We will NOT stand for it."

 

Sounds perfectly reasonable.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

11 minutes ago, Malcador said:

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2020/12/ohio-tea-party-leader-urges-trump-to-suspend-the-constitution-declare-martial-law-to-hold-new-vote.html

"Zawistowski said, "We wanted to express our concerns to the President, to the legislators, courts and Congress that We the People will NOT cede our exclusive Constitutional right to elect our Representatives to judges, lawyers, courts, Governors, Secretary’s of State, Congress, corrupt election officials and local politicians, the corrupt media - or Leftist threats of violence! It is OUR EXCLUSIVE RIGHT to elect our President and that sacred right has been infringed by the massive, planned, illegal election fraud conducted by corrupt Democrat/Socialist Party operatives across our nation to steal our vote. We will NOT stand for it."

 

I guess he's at the "police protection from his slaves" tier of freedom.

[Raithe]

AP News - Barr appoints special counsel in Russia probe investigation

Attorney General William Barr has given extra protection to the prosecutor he appointed to investigate the origins of the Trump-Russia probe, giving him the authority of a special counsel to complete the work without being easily fired.

Barr told The Associated Press on Tuesday that he had appointed U.S. Attorney John Durham as a special counsel in October under the same federal statute that governed special counsel Robert Mueller in the original Russia probe. He said Durham’s investigation has been narrowing to focus more on the conduct of FBI agents who worked on the Russia investigation, known as Crossfire Hurricane.