BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gorth said: Shoot first, ask for ID afterwards This post really made me laugh, Gorthfuscious you should quit your ERP consultancy job and become a stand-up comedian "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, BruceVC said: This post really made me laugh, Gorthfuscious you should quit your ERP consultancy job and become a stand-up comedian I think there is too much of the competition on daily basis by politicians and msm anchors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/01/20/wechat-class-action-lawsuit-us/ So the same should be applicable to any SM platform based off US for any EU citizen? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, Darkpriest said: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/01/20/wechat-class-action-lawsuit-us/ So the same should be applicable to any SM platform based off US for any EU citizen? No, dont think that for second. There is a very easy to understand reality about the world and if you realize this these types of developments will make sense You cannot trust any Chinese SM application because the Chinese government can at any time, and its does , force and demand their SM companies to provide access to the CCP for monitoring and access to user data Its not the same for SM companies in the USA or EU because these SM companies are private sector companies and government cannot easily and legally just force these companies to provide user information unless their is a warrant for criminal cases This doesnt mean I am suggesting you cant use Chinese SM, it just means you dont have the same level of protection or privacy that " Western " SM provides "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, BruceVC said: No, dont think that for second. There is a very easy to understand reality about the world and if you realize this these types of developments will make sense You cannot trust any Chinese SM application because the Chinese government can at any time, and its does , force and demand their SM companies to provide access to the CCP for monitoring and access to user data Its not the same for SM companies in the USA or EU because these SM companies are private sector companies and government cannot easily and legally just force these companies to provide user information unless their is a warrant for criminal cases This doesnt mean I am suggesting you cant use Chinese SM, it just means you dont have the same level of protection or privacy that " Western " SM provides I think you might be a bit too naive when it comes to the US side and sharing data. On EU side, I'd agree, that's why you have some headbutting between EU regulators and for example Facebook, which is a US based company where C-suits are working with US admin and agencies. And looking at what's cooking to "combat domestic terrorism" I would not trust any US based data storing company that my private data is safe with them and actually private. EDIT: Also https://www.rt.com/news/513063-silicon-valley-eu-commission-president/ Edited January 21, 2021 by Darkpriest 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Darkpriest said: I think you might be a bit too naive when it comes to the US side and sharing data. On EU side, I'd agree, that's why you have some headbutting between EU regulators and for example Facebook, which is a US based company where C-suits are working with US admin and agencies. And looking at what's cooking to "combat domestic terrorism" I would not trust any US based data storing company that my private data is safe with them and actually private. Why dont you trust the USA government ? I trust them and other governments like the EU to protect the privacy of my data? But as we discussed the data is kept by private sector SM companies and not the actual government so we talking about these governments accessing your data illegally What would your concern be with the US government, what do you think they would do with your data personally and why would they care to access your data illegally ? Edited January 21, 2021 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Just now, BruceVC said: Why dont you trust the USA government ? I trust them and other governments like the EU to protect the privacy of my data? But as we discussed the data is kept by private sector SM companies and not the actual government so we talking about these governments accessing your data illegally What would you concern be with the US government, what do you think they would do with your data personally and why would they care to access your data illegally ? Oh, they will do that 'legally'. The problem is, I will not like the law, which allows/will allow to do that, same as I would not trust the Chinese private SM company with my private data. I think we had conversation on the differences in data protection regulations between EU and US in the not so far past. Less than 6 months ago maybe? I'd not trust a 'bit' of my data to a US based company, that I do not agree that could be made public. I'm not paranoid about it, but I do know, that if I'm using a Chinese phone and US browser on a US based OS I'm aware that my data could be traced by multiple actors. My name, IP, location, certain keywords or even parts of data I process via internet, perhaps even some voice record from the microphone or images from camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 25 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Why dont you trust the USA government ? I trust them and other governments like the EU to protect the privacy of my data? I don't think you're trying to mock people here, but no. There is a difference. My old favourite game, Star Wars the Old Republic had for years prohibited character transfers between US and EU servers, because the EU privacy laws were so much stricter than the US laws. It took some serious cleaning up of their backend systems and how they managed account information before data could be shared within the same company, between EU and US hosting. 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 @BruceVC Also on the topic of not trusting US government. Why would I trust them? Why should I need to trust them? Why would you not trust Chinese government? Etc. Governments and people in power change, and data records stay. I do not really want to be dependant on the whim of people I do not know, who potentially could do me a lot of harm with misuse of my personal data. What's more, I do not have any direct influence on who is in a foreign to me government. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gorth said: I don't think you're trying to mock people here, but no. There is a difference. My old favourite game, Star Wars the Old Republic had for years prohibited character transfers between US and EU servers, because the EU privacy laws were so much stricter than the US laws. It took some serious cleaning up of their backend systems and how they managed account information before data could be shared within the same company, between EU and US hosting. No I am not mocking anyone, I know the EU has different laws than the US on some data privacy regulation but that is not the debate. Also certain laws are much more regulated in the USA like all the new financial regulations laws that were driven primarily from the USA since the late 1999's, after Enron, and then after 2008. I work primarily with eDiscovery and financial auditing software and I can promise all this software comes from the USA since late 1990's and nowadays other countries create their own software similar to this but the US is still the worlds undisputed leader in eDiscovery software that achieves legal compliance in most sectors but primarily the financial sector Your example of the Stars Wars issue is a good and valid example of an aspect of data regulation but that is not the same as saying " you cannot trust the USA with your data "...that is what this debate is about. Your star wars example doesnt represent the reality and complexity of how most data directly linked to government and the private sector is managed in the USA . You can trust the data you have in Azure, Amazon and Google to be as secure as reasonably possible but yes sometimes mistakes happen and even these systems get hacked and experience data breaches but the same thing happens and can happen to data in the EU So in other words any entity in the USA , both private and public sector, can invest and use very secure and safe software to protect your data and that data will be as secure as anywhere else in the world. The US government cannot just demand to access your data like the CCP unless their is a security precedent which I assume we would all support as this could be a suspected Islamic extremist or right wing terrorist attack? So going back to my original point, you can trust your data is as secure in the US as the EU because its up to individual companies to secure your user data and in most sectors their are mandatory regulations that govern this so companies need to abide by them or face legal and financial punitive measures "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 You can't, that's why a lot of very sensitive data sits on EU servers of the cloud operators like AWS and can be only streamed without caching/logging on the US side of the cloud operator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 20 minutes ago, Darkpriest said: @BruceVC Also on the topic of not trusting US government. Why would I trust them? Why should I need to trust them? Why would you not trust Chinese government? Etc. Governments and people in power change, and data records stay. I do not really want to be dependant on the whim of people I do not know, who potentially could do me a lot of harm with misuse of my personal data. What's more, I do not have any direct influence on who is in a foreign to me government. You joking right....please tell me you joking? You not seriously comparing a Democratically elected government in a country like the USA to the CCP.....you know they dont have elections in China and their is no legal accountability to anyone in the CCP outside the CCP unless the CCP allows it and decides to arrest anyone in their political party ? You cannot compare any Democratically elected government to China because their are no human rights in China unless the CCP allows it and that includes things like legal warrants, free media and the ability to sue public sector institutions for things like " you accessed my data illegally " "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Democracy elected president of Venezuela, Brasil, Russia, Turkey, etc. Democracy is not really a trust factor here. We already established that you would not want to have Human Rights decided in a democratic process by World's majority of populace. US government has no direct accountability to me as well, so what do they care? Why should I then trust them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, BruceVC said: Why dont you trust the USA government ? I trust them and other governments like the EU to protect the privacy of my data? But as we discussed the data is kept by private sector SM companies and not the actual government so we talking about these governments accessing your data illegally What would your concern be with the US government, what do you think they would do with your data personally and why would they care to access your data illegally ? US don't have clear cut legislation but patchwork of federal and state laws which means that it is quite obfuscated what is data which privacy should be protected. This goes both for private and public sectors 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Elerond said: US don't have clear cut legislation but patchwork of federal and state laws which means that it is quite obfuscated what is data which privacy should be protected. This goes both for private and public sectors Yes I am not disputing that in certain sectors you are correct, its different laws and regulations like gaming and video streaming. But their are global financial regulations that all financial institutions have to adhere to if they want to trade with the US financial markets. These laws dont change anywhere in the world, here is a list of these laws if you scroll down in the link to the USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_regulation So its not the same as saying " their is no consistency with USA data regulation " because their are consistent laws in many sectors. Its not as chaotic as you suggest "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 18 minutes ago, Darkpriest said: Democracy elected president of Venezuela, Brasil, Russia, Turkey, etc. Democracy is not really a trust factor here. We already established that you would not want to have Human Rights decided in a democratic process by World's majority of populace. US government has no direct accountability to me as well, so what do they care? Why should I then trust them? Good question, " why should you trust them " ? You can trust them because I am saying you can trust them and you can trust me. Have I ever lied to you deliberately ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) There are regulations, true, but even until recently some big US companies did not adopt PSD2 required 3D secure authenticantion protocol 2.0 for financial transactions with EU cardholders. They relied until the end of 2020 on the 3DSA 1.0 until it got decomissioned, even though that regulation was live from mid 2019. So if they are not working in good faith as early as possible, why would I trust with even more sensitive information? Edited January 21, 2021 by Darkpriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majestic Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, BruceVC said: So going back to my original point, you can trust your data is as secure in the US as the EU because its up to individual companies to secure your user data and in most sectors their are mandatory regulations that govern this so companies need to abide by them or face legal and financial punitive measures No, you can't. The US has laws in place that allow the government to demand any data they would like to see, at any point, as long as its stored under their jurisdiction, and if you really think the Patriot Act and the NSA's systematic attempts to underminde encryption and spy on everyone isn't used for large scale industrial espionage but for protection from "terrorists" then you might just as well start to trust China that they won't simply infringe on your copyrights or patents or buy that bridge in New York someone's been trying to sell. To borrow one from Guard Dog's playbook, the US government is only your friend if you're from the US... and even when you are, they're probably not your friend. Edited January 21, 2021 by majestic 1 1 No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Good question, " why should you trust them " ? You can trust them because I am saying you can trust them and you can trust me. Have I ever lied to you deliberately ? Hah I trust you to be uninformed on certain matters, so I'd rather err on the side of being too cautious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, majestic said: No, you can't. The US has laws in place that allow the government to demand any data they would like to see, at any point, as long as its stored under their jurisdiction, and if you really think the Patriot Act and the NSA's systematic attempts to underminde encryption and spy on everyone isn't used for large scale industrial espionage but for protection from "terrorists" then you might just as well start to trust China that they won't simply infringe on your copyrights or patents or buy that bridge in New York someone's been trying to sell. To borrow one from Guard Dog's playbook, the US government is only your friend if you're from the US... and even when you are, they're probably not your friend. Yes as I did mention you can get a warrant to search user data or you can legally get access to user data if a suspected terrorist, for example, attack is imminent. But that is something we all should support as none of us want Islamic extremist or right wing terror attacks within our countries "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 minute ago, majestic said: No, you can't. The US has laws in place that allow the government to demand any data they would like to see, at any point, as long as its stored under their jurisdiction, and if you really think the Patriot Act and the NSA's systematic attempts to underminde encryption and spy on everyone isn't used for large scale industrial espionage but for protection from "terrorists" then you might just as well start to trust China that they won't simply infringe on your copyrights or patents or buy that bridge in New York someone's been trying to sell. One example of problems with US data protection laws is that we can't use US based cloud providers like Microsoft's Google's and Amazon's services for certain data, because there is no guarantee that those services and US follows EU's data protection laws. Which has sometimes forced us to change architecture how our SAAS services work or/and where they are hosted or ways to obfuscate data before it is loaded to cloud platform services. And it isn't just personal data, but also security of critical supply like food production 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Yes as I did mention you can get a warrant to search user data or you can legally get access to user data if a suspected terrorist, for example, attack is imminent. But that is something we all should support as none of us want Islamic extremist or right wing terror attacks within our countries @BruceVCsometimes you sound like one of those men, who would trust a stripper whe she says "you are so handsome" or "i love you" Edited January 21, 2021 by Darkpriest 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Darkpriest said: @BruceVCsometimes you sound likenone of those men, who would trust a stripper whe she says "you are so handsome" or "i love you" Oh dont worry that use to happen to me and I fell for it the first few times I went to strip clubs, I really fell for it but it wasnt what you posted that she said . She told me " I am studying part time at university and I need to make money to pay for my degree " But she was a nice person and we became friends for a while afterwards Edited January 21, 2021 by BruceVC 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 alexey navlany https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/23/world/europe/navalny-protests-russia.html "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 Looks like China thought it a good time, while the White House is busy and all, to allow their navy vessel to open fire and sink other nations vessels in the disputed waters. I'm curious to see how long they can sink other countries fishing vessels in those other countries own local territorial waters before it escalates to something larger. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/23/china-authorises-coast-guard-to-fire-on-foreign-vessels-if I wouldn't be surprised if China's next step is to make territorial claims on northern Australia (because it borders Chinese territorial waters, which they are trying to expand south of Papua New-Guinea) and Antarctica. Why oh why are we stuck with Scott Morrison as prime minister???? 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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