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On 9/13/2020 at 7:09 PM, bugarup said:

I liked him when I played the game for the first time years ago, but found his shtick quite tiresome on the recent playthrough. And even then it's not exactly Minsc who's annoying, it's that disgusting little squeaky pest of his. Wish the game had some cat I could save from a tree and feed it that furry annoyance, so at least in death it would be of some use. :down:

This post made me laugh " disgusting little squeaky pest" ......:grin:

Im sure thats animal cruelty !!! We going to charge you for  suggesting " Boo genocide "  ....you a  very bad person :cat:

Edited by BruceVC
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, bugarup said:

Aaaah yes, the girl I go to "save" when there are no sidequests left anymore and who has to hike home through Underdark, because no way I'm dropping someone useful for her. 😼

Funny, in the sea of suboptimal NPCs that the Baldur's  Gate series has Imoen is one of the more useful ones. You can make her useful in BG1 and she comes as useful right from the start in the second.

Annoying VO aside, in terms of raw power added to the party she's kinda hard to beat in BG2. Not counting mod NPCs of course.

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1 hour ago, majestic said:

You can make her useful in BG1 and she comes as useful right from the start in the second.

In the second and for the whole length of tutorial dungeon. :biggrin: And later, whatever she can do, Jan Jansen can do better. :yes:

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3 hours ago, majestic said:

Funny, in the sea of suboptimal NPCs that the Baldur's  Gate series has Imoen is one of the more useful ones. You can make her useful in BG1 and she comes as useful right from the start in the second.

Annoying VO aside, in terms of raw power added to the party she's kinda hard to beat in BG2. Not counting mod NPCs of course.

In BG1 if we talk overall companions then sure, she is above average, but her problem is that BG1 has in fact a very decent rooster of thieves. And her 9 STR is rather a dealbreaker, she cannot carry her own weight (literally), cannot backstab and so on. She is outclassed from the get go by great fighter/thief Montaron, Safana is not far away and by the time Coran is available it's not even a contest. She beats Skie (available way to late), Tiax (same) and Alora (same plus even worst STR score), though. She has being available from the start as her biggest advantage. Dualing her to Mage is an option but as a Mage she's not standing out from the crowd either, although she is a good Mage, but Mages don't shine in BG1. 

In BG 2 however she sinks, and she sinks hard. Imoen hardly is better than anyone except Nalia. She is supposed to replace Yoshimo storywise, but with her locked thief levels you cannot help it but feel cheated by the exchange. Jansen being able to actually progress in thief class is far better. And if you didn't bring a full scroll bag then she will be gimped from lack of decent spell selection.

So if someone is annoyed by demeanor then there is hardly a reason to keep her.

Edited by Skarpen

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1 minute ago, Skarpen said:

In BG1 if we talk overall companions then sure, she is above average, but her problem is that BG1 has in fact a very decent rooster of thieves. And her 9 STR is rather a dealbreaker, she cannot carry her own weight (literally), cannot backstab and so on. She is outclassed from the get go by great fighter/thief Montaron, Safana is not far away and by the time Coran is available it's not even a contest. She beats Skie (available way to late), Tiax (same) and Alora (same plus even worst STR score), though. She has being available from the start as her biggest advantage. Dualing her to Mage is an option but as a Mage she's not standing out from the crowd either, although she is a good Mage, but Mages don't shine in BG1. 

In BG 2 however she sinks, and she sinks hard. Imoen hardly is better than anyone except Nalia. She is supposed to replace Yoshimo storywise, but with her locked thief levels you cannot help it but feel cheated by the exchange. Jansen being able to actually progress in thief class is far better.

So if someone is annoyed by demeanor then there is hardly a reason to keep her.

That's all well and true - but only if you assume that you really want a thief character in your party that levels as a thief and it is not going to be your Fighter/Thief player character that can make liberal use of the Assassination HLA bug (that I presume is fixed in the EEs and certainly fixed in all the fixpack mods anyway) and has faster acess to more traps than Jan (due to the way HLAs work in BG2).

That's fine, but then we're well past the point of "who is she going to replace who is more useful than her" in terms of raw power and we're back to roleplaying or finding NPCs annoying or not, or silly limitations like avoiding rest-spamming.

Whether she replaces Nalia or Jan doesn't really matter. She has enough thieving skills to handle the rest of the game - unlike Nalia - and she fires more and better spells off than Jan at the same experience level, and she's not limited by being an Illusionist with no access to Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting.

So, nah. I honestly don't know if the EE introduces an extra thief NPC, but... I'd pick none of the available ones for their thievery skills. But I will pick a Tihef/Mage DC over an MC every time. ;)

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19 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Man, she's your childhood friend. Bunch of sociopaths here. :aiee:

How many childhood friends would you drag along on an epic adventure? 😝

  

17 minutes ago, majestic said:

That's all well and true - but only if you assume that you really want a thief character in your party that levels as a thief and it is not going to be your Fighter/Thief player character that can make liberal use of the Assassination HLA bug (that I presume is fixed in the EEs and certainly fixed in all the fixpack mods anyway) and has faster acess to more traps than Jan (due to the way HLAs work in BG2).

That's fine, but then we're well past the point of "who is she going to replace who is more useful than her" in terms of raw power and we're back to roleplaying or finding NPCs annoying or not, or silly limitations like avoiding rest-spamming.

Whether she replaces Nalia or Jan doesn't really matter. She has enough thieving skills to handle the rest of the game - unlike Nalia - and she fires more and better spells off than Jan at the same experience level, and she's not limited by being an Illusionist with no access to Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting.

So, nah. I honestly don't know if the EE introduces an extra thief NPC, but... I'd pick none of the available ones for their thievery skills. But I will pick a Tihef/Mage DC over an MC every time. ;)

Well if you don't want a thief then there are all the other Mages that are better then Imoen. IMO she loses on both fronts.

Edited by Skarpen

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3 hours ago, bugarup said:

whatever she can do, Jan Jansen can do better. :yes:

...with turnips...??? :blink:

Seriously though, I don't like Minsc either.  I also preferred Imoen as a thief.  But I'd rather have a classless system than hybrid class system mechanics and so was never fond of BG2 forcing me to have her a dual class character.

Anyhow, imagine if Khalid and Dynahir had been the survivors in Irenicus' dungeon instead of Minsc and Jaheria...! :lol:

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1 hour ago, majestic said:

So, nah. I honestly don't know if the EE introduces an extra thief NPC, but... I'd pick none of the available ones for their thievery skills. But I will pick a Tihef/Mage DC over an MC every time. ;)

Hexxat. Vampire-lite chick, but unlike Weimer's Valen she's nothing to write home about.

edit: as for your dc/mc mage/thief comment, I take it you never much abused backstab under Mislead. Good times.

Edited by 213374U

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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55 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

i always feed imoen to the bear outside Candlekeep

HoonDing Im shocked and disappointed by your callous and cruel  attitude....

I had Imoen in my party the whole way on BG2, I dont remember much about her that was significant and after reading this thread  there definitely seems to be  better thief options  than  her....what I do remember about her was that she use to make annoying comments that were sycophantic and how she alluded to a Romance arc with me but I quickly ended any possible Romance with her because I could never cheat on Viconia :wub:

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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5 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Well if you don't want a thief then there are all the other Mages that are better then Imoen. IMO she loses on both fronts.

  The beauty of using Imoen is that you can drop a party member for the added experience gain without missing out on anything. Except access to traps, but I'd rather timestop and nuke everything on screen. It's less annoying to set up and much more of a spectacle.

But yes, she's not the best thief nor is she the best mage in the game (although how much mage stats matter in BG2 is an entirely different discussion - it ultimately boils down to two extra spell slots for Edwin compared to being able to wear the Amulet of Power), but she's - imo, obviously - the best of the two for one options when it comes to thieves.

4 hours ago, 213374U said:

edit: as for your dc/mc mage/thief comment, I take it you never much abused backstab under Mislead. Good times.

No, but I had 10 attacks/round fighter/thief player characters with Foebane +5 and multiple Assassinations.

It's probably not as funny as using Mislead to repeatedly backstab but it puts out a lot of raw damage and you can hold your own in fights with completely obliterate enemies that are immune to backstab. I'd put using Mislead like that in the same category as using Simulacrum to circument the summoning limit. It's interesting to do but in terms of convenience nothing beats sending your buffed up meele whirlwind of destruction into the fray and watch everything on screen die in a round and a half.

I mean, sure, we're talking about a game where outside of modifications you can beat every fight solo with the most underpowered classes in the game, so that's pretty much purely academic.

  

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

HoonDing Im shocked and disappointed by your callous and cruel  attitude....

I had Imoen in my party the whole way on BG2, I dont remember much about her that was significant and after reading this thread  there definitely seems to be  better thief options  than  her....what I do remember about her was that she use to make annoying comments that were sycophantic and how she alluded to a Romance arc with me but I quickly ended any possible Romance with her because I could never cheat on Viconia :wub:

You sure you're talkin about Imoen here? Because that romance arc is only available in a mod, and it is a contender for the worst modification in the history of ever.

Edited by majestic
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9 hours ago, Skarpen said:

In BG 2 however she sinks, and she sinks hard. Imoen hardly is better than anyone except Nalia. She is supposed to replace Yoshimo storywise, but with her locked thief levels you cannot help it but feel cheated by the exchange. Jansen being able to actually progress in thief class is far better. And if you didn't bring a full scroll bag then she will be gimped from lack of decent spell selection.

True. I played BG2 for a few years before I got BG1, so there's that. But on my very first play through I fell into the Yoshimo trap (man, was I pissed off) and kept my dear sister all the way to the end as my main mage.... (facepalm).

 

In subsequent play throughs, Yoshimo could find his own way and Imoen was left behind too for her own good, as soon as someone with lockpicking skills could be found. I would often play thief myself (my favourite class to play in several crpgs, heck even my main character in Guild Wars 2 today is a thief). Things got better with modding tools where I used Imoen as single class mage. Minsc and Lilarcor were like made for each other, but after a few games it got tiring too, so Korgan (was that the name of the angry dwarf?) often got the slot as the partys muscle, at other times whatshisname the self righteous paladin when feeling like using twohanded swords.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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7 hours ago, majestic said:

  

 

  

You sure you're talkin about Imoen here? Because that romance arc is only available in a mod, and it is a contender for the worst modification in the history of ever.

You right, I must be confusing Imoens unappreciated Romance comments with someone from DA who use to annoy me

I never use to Mod games when I first played BG2 so it cannot be Imoen  8)

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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On 9/15/2020 at 5:36 AM, Skarpen said:

MInsc is only considered a good NPC in BG because first game was a parade of bad, useless and horrible NPC's. He had one thing going on for him, he had the highest strength. But with Dorn introduced in EE he even lost that. In BG2 was outshined by every other recruitable fighters. WHy he became the face of Baldurs Gate series is beyond comprehension. 

I agree with you entirely! I seriously don't understand the cult he has!

 

On 9/14/2020 at 11:17 PM, Orogun01 said:

I thought you were a seal.

Seals are the dogs of the ocean. Duhh. 

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On 9/15/2020 at 5:49 PM, bugarup said:

Aaaah yes, the girl I go to "save" when there are no sidequests left anymore and who has to hike home through Underdark, because no way I'm dropping someone useful for her. 😼 This is my way to go since the very first playthrough, as if I knew about "Heya it's me, Imoen!!!1"x1000 even though I haven't played BG1 (which sucks) until much later.  

You know, I feel this way about Minsc. I get so much satisfaction from leaving him locked in that cage. I like to imagine in BG2 when my char becomes a god, that he transports Minsc's cage to his god realm. Minsc will be taunted and Boo will be experimented on, IN FRONT OF HIM. muhahawahaha 

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1 hour ago, MedicineDan said:

Let's be honest.  You can beat the game at any difficulty with any of the NPCs.  I'm with Hurlshot.  Imoen is a must have *just* because she's your childhood friend.

Her second most-used bark in BG1 is "You're a queer fellow" which is something you say to the stranger you met just yesterday and not someone you supposedly know from childhood. Like, come on Imoen, if you were true old friend you would know Charname was weird before they started stealing and hoarding and volunteering to help random strangers with their spider problems. So that "close friendship" is either one-sided or plain fraud. :shifty:

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all the bg1 companions were terrible from a writing pov. bg1 companions contributed little more than a catchphrase to the narrative. point o' fact, the most developed bg1 companion, and the object o' lanfear's curious fixation, were coran who turned out to be an unrepentant deadbeat dad? serious? 

bg2 companions were considerable more developed than bg1 counterparts. no surprise as shallowness o' bg1 companions were one o' the top five most common complaints on the bg2 development board, and possible top two if you ignore the doomed too difficult/too easy split.

*shrug*

minsc is a good natured and mental challenged comic relief character (try that in 2020) who has an unusable item slot 'cause he carries with him a tailless rat at all times. in bg2, given the level bloat, he may be effective as a 2-hand weapon combatant or a dual wielder, or both. is less meaningful character development o' bg2 minsc than keldorn or jaheira. nevertheless, minsc has boo and noteworthy vo talent. meh.

am thinking the only two bg2 companions we active disliked were anomen and aerie. sorry dave. cernd and nalia were kinda flat for us but there weren't enough to like or dislike 'bout either. edwin were ridiculous. *shrug* our cynicism were prodded a bit with viconia as the degree to which she were victimized by surfacers were, in our mind, a cheap way to generate empathy and compassion for a character otherwise undeserving o' such. etc. nevertheless, were aerie and anomen who annoyed us, made all the more terrible by fact our good aligned parties were self-handicapping by the failure to include either in a party, particular anomen. 

fyi, bg2 were released 2000

am knowing bg3 is soon to be released, but the thread topic is a bit stale at this point, no?.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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2 hours ago, bugarup said:

Her second most-used bark in BG1 is "You're a queer fellow" which is something you say to the stranger you met just yesterday and not someone you supposedly know from childhood. Like, come on Imoen, if you were true old friend you would know Charname was weird before they started stealing and hoarding and volunteering to help random strangers with their spider problems. So that "close friendship" is either one-sided or plain fraud. :shifty:

Maybe she pickpocketed Charname's heart?

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2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am knowing bg3 is soon to be released, but the thread topic is a bit stale at this point, no?.

HA! Good Fun!

Sure is, but we're making the best of a SonicMage117 StupidSeal troll thread. So there's that... :)

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1 hour ago, majestic said:

Sure is, but we're making the best of a SonicMage117 StupidSeal troll thread. So there's that... :)

I have really enjoyed it and there have been  several very funny posts " feed Imoen to the bear " and informative ones as well from a technical party selection and " best practice" around classes 

So just to answer Gromnirs question, its not even remotely stale until we lose interest in making comments which are either interesting, comical or both 8)

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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