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I'm trying to transpose my two favorite PoE wizard builds to Deadfire and not having much success 

 

The first is the blast/implements/kalakoths blight wizard that eventually became the master of battlefield control. I noticed kalakoths is still on the spell list, as is combusting wounds. But the blasts feat is now a modal tied to the rod which is not impressive at all. I can still trigger CW with DoT spells like chill fig or wall of fire, but I miss the machine gun blaster punishment that the original could dish.

 

The second was dwarf melee wizard that focused on staff and citzals spear. By the end this build was a walking wrecking crew and could melee dragons straight up will the rest of party chewed gum. From what I see concelhauts staff has much less damage going for it in Deadfire. The deflection bonus from the buffs like displaced image have been significantly nerfed.

 

Maybe I need to multiclass to flesh out these builds? Or am I failing to properly grasp Deadfire mechanics?

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All abilities/spells/itemss are overall weaker in Deadfire. A way to compensate this is to find another class having good synergy with the one you want to play. For a ranged wizard a great combo is with a helwalker which adds might, intellect, penetration and speed... The monk can also use Citzal's spear as a ranged weapon (with Instruments of Pain) as a way to deal ranged AOE damage, which is even better than the PoE1 rod.

If you want to make a melee wizard, then you can combine a bloodmage with a paladin and tank any monster in the game.

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Or with a Fighter. 

Unbending with Wall of Draining should be fun.

In fact for melee with Citzal's Lance, a Fighter's Clear Out is particularly fun (aoe weapon x aoe ability).

Edited by Haplok
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If you liked caster classes in poe1 , deadfire caster classes are such a disappointment in comparison. Everything from damage/accuracy to spell use has been severely nerded. The defensive spells are all really garbage compared to poe1 as well. Unless you want to abuse the really silly brilliant or wall of draining combos, I would pick a martial multiclass like kaylon suggested

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Defensive spells garbage? Really? That's news to me. 

 

There is an authentic tradeoff between defensive buffs and more offensive spells. But a Blood Mage doesn't even need to choose... 

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1 hour ago, n00biwan said:

If you liked caster classes in poe1 , deadfire caster classes are such a disappointment in comparison. Everything from damage/accuracy to spell use has been severely nerded. The defensive spells are all really garbage compared to poe1 as well. Unless you want to abuse the really silly brilliant or wall of draining combos, I would pick a martial multiclass like kaylon suggested

Is a pure wizard viable as a caster still viable assuming a full party of 5.

Edited by mr_raider
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Of course. The Power Level 8 and 9 spells are exceptionally good.

2 hours ago, n00biwan said:

If you liked caster classes in poe1 , deadfire caster classes are such a disappointment in comparison. Everything from damage/accuracy to spell use has been severely nerded. The defensive spells are all really garbage compared to poe1 as well. Unless you want to abuse the really silly brilliant or wall of draining combos, I would pick a martial multiclass like kaylon suggested

That is not correct.

Adressing your points and using the Wizard as example:

  • Damage: spells are now 2 (or 3 with Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry --> 4 with empower or even unlimited with a Bloodmage) per encounter instead of 4 per rest. Not tuning the damage down would be completely unbalanced.
  • Accuracy: all classes start with the same base accuracy of in Deadfire and the enemies' defenses are balanced towards that  - in PoE Wizards started with abysmal base accuracy compared to martial classes: 20 Wizard, 30 Fighter for example - and thus the spells had to have bonus ACC to make up for that.
  • defensive spells are garbage: again they are castable per encounter instead of per rest. Also Wizards start with 20 deflection in Deadfire instead of 10 in PoE - thus the deflection buffs don't need to be as high. You end up with the same (or even more) deflection in the end. The other thing is that all defensive buffs from items will stack while in PoE they didn't. Since defensive buffs have increasing returns it would be too unbalanced to allow the stacking of defensive items + sky high wizard self buffs + higher base deflection. 

Then you get the new spell tiers which weren't there in PoE which contain some very potent spells like Missile Salvo and such. You also get Power Level scaling which makes sure that low level spells stay powerful throughout the game - something PoE didn't have. At higher levels a PoE Wizard wouldn't bother to cast a puny Fan of Flames anymore because its damage wouldn't scale at all. In Deadfire you get +5% multiplicative damage per Power Level, more penetration and more accuracy for the lower level spells - which is a HUGE advantage over PoE's casters. And I haven't even touched the Empower system that sykrockets spells on a per-rest basis for the really tough fights - you can even improve than with talents. 

Also casters now have spell shaping and other casting related passives like faster cast etc. which were not there in PoE. 

Following that reasoning: caster classes aren't a disappointment at all in Deadfire. They just work a bit differently to make them fit the more systemic per-encounter system. Some players might like the old per-rest system better or even the whole PoE game, but that doesn't mean casters are objectively worse in Deadfire.  

Edited by Boeroer
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1 hour ago, mr_raider said:

Is a pure wizard viable as a caster still viable assuming a full party of 5.

Absolutely. The high level spells (PL8 and 9) are awesome.

Edited by Boeroer

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Boeroer, ill just ask you this, can the wizard in deadfire do anything close to what it did in poe1? Kill adra/bog dragons in 3 hits of kalakoths ice rake? How does deadfire's wizard do in comparison soloing any dragon without draining wall / bdd potion? 

Can the deadfire wizard face tank any encounter just by casting vital essence + llengrath displacement? Is the deadfire wizard any where near viable in solo potd without some sort of cheese with blood mage? You can say that the wizard didnt change , the enemies got more powerful, but it doesnt change the fact the wizard in deadfire is absolute trash compared to poe1.

Edit: this applies to every caster class imo, maybe im biased in my opinions since I had way more fun playing poe1 than I did deadfire, but its hard to not admit how much every caster class has been nerfed in comparison, i mean, even look at certain non caster class skill changes like dragon thrashed and sacred immolation, i thought I must have been high as a kite because I couldnt believe wtf i was actually reading when I first saw those changes.

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8 hours ago, n00biwan said:

Boeroer, ill just ask you this, can the wizard in deadfire do anything close to what it did in poe1?

Sure - and more. 

8 hours ago, n00biwan said:

Kill adra/bog dragons in 3 hits of kalakoths ice rake?

No, mainly because there are neither adra nor bog dragons in Deadfire and also no spells named kalakoths ice rake. I also doubt that any dragon in PoE could get reliably killed by 3 casts of Kalakoth's Freezing Rake but only if you get lucky with the rolls - but anyways. Wizards in Deadfire can kill dragons with stuff like Missile Salvo or Combusting Wounds + Wall of Flames and whatnot. I killed Neriscyrlas solo with Concelhaut's Draining Touch...

8 hours ago, n00biwan said:

How does deadfire's wizard do in comparison soloing any dragon without draining wall / bdd potion? 

I don't use any potions at all and I still manage. And then: as if solo wizards in PoE  wouldn't use potions and all the advantages like figurines and all other stuff they could get to win against a dragon.
Taking Wall of Draining out of the equation when comparing wizards of PoE and Deafire is arbitrari. I could also say "But PoE's wizard is lame if you don't use Freezing Rake". Yeah - but why wouldn't I use that if it's good?
Wall of Draining can make wizards in Deadfire extremely powerful in solo mode - more powerful than any PoE wizard could have been. So why skip it and then lament that they are not powerful enough? 🤷‍♂️

8 hours ago, n00biwan said:

Can the deadfire wizard face tank any encounter just by casting vital essence + llengrath displacement?

He can face tank most things just by casting Arcane Veil, Wall of Draining and Llengrath's Safeguard. Different spells but it's possible to "facetank" lots of stuff (besides the fact that a PoE wizard couldn't just facetank all encounters with Infuse with Vital Essence and Llengrath's Displaced Image alone - try that against some of the late bounties...) - and that doesn't even take multiclassing of Deadfire into account - where you can perfectly synergize wizard spells with other classes' abilites. See Arcane Knight who can tank anything with the right setup. So a Wizard who wants to be supertanky multiclasses with a tanky class. A Wizard who wants to deal absurd damage with Spirit Lance multiclasses with Monk, Barbarian or Rogue. Nice options. Why is that disappointing or make the wizard class trash? 

8 hours ago, n00biwan said:

Is the deadfire wizard any where near viable in solo potd without some sort of cheese with blood mage?

Sure - you just become Brilliant (either via Shroud of the Phantasm or the Least Unstable Coil or some Weyc's gear) and then use Wall of Draining. You don't need to be a Bloodmage for that. But even then: if you wanted to play solo - why would you not pick a wizard subclass that is best for this? Sorting out the most powerful option and then complaining that the remaining options are a disappointment doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

8 hours ago, n00biwan said:

You can say that the wizard didnt change , the enemies got more powerful, but it doesnt change the fact the wizard in deadfire is absolute trash compared to poe1.

Sure, I could say that if I wanted. But neither did I say that nor do I intend to. Of course they are different - as I already stated above. But that doesn't mean they are trash or a disappointment.

Your argements are made from a very subjective point of view and you don't seem to be willing to take counterarguments into consideration.  

Given the changes of the mechanics casters are nowhere disappointing nor trash in Deadfire - especially not with multiclassing and also not with PL scaling and high tier spells.

Judging a class by its solo performance doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a party based game either. Would that be a good measurement then Priest of Skaen would be the top class overall - because nearly every verified Ultimate run used it. But it is supergood in a party? Nay.

All casters are viable in Deadfire and can be great fun in a normal paythrough. No exception. Some got tuned down a bit because they would have been too good in their PoE state. See Priests. That doesn't mean they are "trash" all of a sudden. Remember that they can either get some great high tier spells or synergize with multiclassing.

For solo runs you can use Wall of Draining (it's not that useful with a party) or Bloodmage (has way less impact in party environments) or do some Barring Death's Door + Salvation of Time shenanigans with a Priest. So the options are there - there are even more than in PoE.  
 

 

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17 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Absolutely. The high level spells (PL8 and 9) are awesome.

Is Zeblastian still alive in deadfire?

 

Or has he gone the way of the dodo.

 

And what exactly is this blood mage cheese you speak of?

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A Wizard (especially multiclassed) can still make use of a rod + blast - but it's not tied to the wizard class now, any class can use Blast because it became a weapon modal. My go-to "Zeblastian" equivalent is an Arcane Archer/Helwalker or an Arcane Archer/Trickster with Watershaper's Focus nowadays. 

Kalakoth's Minor Blights + Blast doesn't work anymore since only rads can have blasts in deadfire and KMB is no rod. 

Bloodmages can regain spell uses by sacrificing health. They can also cast Wall of Draining (like most other wizards) which prolongs any benefical effect on them (as long as you hit enemies with it), including healing over time. Thus the Bloodmage can get spells back without any risk - including the use of Wall of Draining. It becomes a circle: Wall of Draining lets the healing never end, the healing allows to sacrifice health for new spells - one of them Wall of Draining - and so on. It's not necessary in a party composition most of times - but it's invaluable when going solo. Against single foes it doesn't work well though because you can't drain enough duration from a single foe.  

 

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I also doubt that any dragon in PoE could get reliably killed by 3 casts of Kalakoth's Freezing Rake but only if you get lucky with the rolls

 

Last video is mine , i purposely did not rest with acc bonus to try llengrath. You can doubt all you want, but console in an adra dragon and test it yourself, you sure don't need any "lucky" rolls.

I've done the ultimate on poe1 with every single class except barb,fighter,rogue. Wizard is by far the strongest overall class on par with fire priest, its even better than cipher abusing brutal backlash vs dragons. Figurines sure as hell do absolutely nothing...

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Sure - and more. 
Taking Wall of Draining out of the equation when comparing wizards of PoE and Deafire is arbitrari. I could also say "But PoE's wizard is lame if you don't use Freezing Rake". Yeah - but why wouldn't I use that if it's good?

You could make the argument that WoD is very op combined with potion of last stand, but its extremely anti fun and tedious to play. I did the ultimate on poe2 copying tenrays zealot strat where I fought every fight with wits of heralds except the inital ashen maw encounter(video playlist is public on my channel), where I proc'd brilliant using flame blight summon / abusing quick swap healing with lethandrias devotion, and despite this I still wanted to jump off a building because of how boring it was. Back to WoD, first of all, because WoD requires rolls vs will, it doesnt do anything vs a lot of the harder encounters, so you have to start fight, disengage with magrans challenge enabled or use some kind of dot cheese and hit your own minions to summon a flame blight, cast wod, and drag the flame blight across the wall multiple times to stack what ever it is that you are abusing. This absolutely sucks. I will never play a wizard for fun, only if I were to multiclass it with a Paladin where I can actually do stuff without abusing the absurd strategies available. Even "bdd" with potion of last stand is extremely tedious because you have to get yourself to low hp first, and summoning a flame blight isnt so easy or reliable unless you enable hyleas challenge and keep hitting vela with a blunderbuss.

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

He can face tank most things just by casting Arcane Veil, Wall of Draining and Llengrath's Safeguard. Different spells but it's possible to "facetank" lots of stuff (besides the fact that a PoE wizard couldn't just facetank all encounters with Infuse with Vital Essence and Llengrath's Displaced Image alone - try that against some of the late bounties...

I don't know what to tell you, but the wizard sure can tank anything in poe1, I don't have a full run recorded as proof, but if you seriously doubt this, name an encounter and I'll prove it to you in video form using console. I'll even do it 5 times in a row just so you can complain its because of lucky rolls. In deadfire arcane veil + safeguard cannot be extended and will not last long enough before you nuke down the harder encounters, and if you mention WoD again, then whats the point, why not just take nemnoks cloak or bdd pot and just default to blade cascade and flame blight abuse. You can do this better with a priest + martial class and do it much faster.

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Sure - you just become Brilliant (either via Shroud of the Phantasm or the Least Unstable Coil or some Weyc's gear) and then use Wall of Draining. You don't need to be a Bloodmage for that. But even then: if you wanted to play solo - why would you not pick a wizard subclass that is best for this? Sorting out the most powerful option and then complaining that the remaining options are a disappointment doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

Brilliant is very good, but without multiclassing it with priest and spamming sot how do you extend it? Again we go back to the flame blight bull****. Whats even the point of playing bm/skaen , I'll post my 9 hour run of the ultimate with a sc skaen in the coming days so you can compare this to some of the other bm included runs and see now unnecessary and terrible bm is even in terms of extreme abuse of game mechanics. Also proccing brilliant without wits of herald requires some extreme rng, just check this video where i spend an literal hour proccing it. Also I do hate mentioning brilliant and taking it into consideration because of how stupid it really is, its borderline anti fun and its not something I would recommend to people unless they are doing the absurd challenges like the ultimate.

 

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Your argements are made from a very subjective point of view and you don't seem to be willing to take counterarguments into consideration.  

Given the changes of the mechanics casters are nowhere disappointing nor trash in Deadfire - especially not with multiclassing and also not with PL scaling and high tier spells.

What else can I say... casters are not in the same league as in poe1, we can even look at ciphers, where any dragons can be soloed without any gear what so ever, and any of the toughest creatures can be killed with one or two casts disintergration + recall agony , because of the resolve changes in deadfire, any sort of dot becomes absolute garbage, console command iroll20s and try to spam unlimited disintegration vs any of the megabosses, see if that even does anything.

 

Edit: before you tell me to use a cipher to proc brilliant, I don't and will never play the game with a party, its simply not fun for me. So lets keep the discussion on solo potd

Edited by n00biwan
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You are moving the goal posts:

You said that casters are disappointing and thrash in Deadfire. I reasoned that they are not and that the changes which were done are resonable ones - because the whole game mechanics got reinvented (see "self buffs are worse now" vs. "item effects do stack now/starting values are higher now/multiclassing" and so on ). I didn't say that Deadfire's casters are more powerful or even equally powerful than in PoE, just that weaker spell effects per se don't mean that casters are suddenly bad or no fun to play. I don't think they are worse when it comes to the only metric that one should care about: fun to play. 

In PoE casters turned out to be the most powerful classes at high levels - because you could simply rest after each fight and spam those very impactful spells 4 times per rest per spell tier - and on top of that you'd have 4 tiers of spell mastery. That is cheesy as well - as cheesy as using Brilliant + SoT or Wall of Draining with Belt of Magran's Chosen or whatnot. Just because you like one cheese better than the other doesn't mean that this has to be the same for every player. 

With the change from per-rest to per-encounter and the introduction of multiclassing something had to change so that casters don't completely break the class balance. You couldn't just let Freezing Rake do the same amount of damage if you can cast if up to 3 times per encounter compared to 4 times per rest (if you didn't abuse resting). You couldn't let Priests keep their prayers when there's a whole new system of afflicitions and inspirations as counters. Especially when it was clear that Priests were the most impactful class in PoE in the first place even without them. 

The result of those changes is a portfolio of well-balanced classes: casters are viable and fun to play in Deadfire - even if some or even most of their spells got weakened (others got buffed by the way - look at Slicken). If you don't agree: fine. But I won't let you say such things without pointing out where you exaggerate, being ultra-subjective or are simply wrong. Such blatant and unjustified criticism might discourage players from even trying a caster. And what is won then?

Just because you are disappointed (because Freezing Rake does less damage now or because Citzal's Spirit Lance has less base damage) doesn't mean everybody else has to be. 

I don't even like the casters of Deadfire more than PoE's. I actually perfer per-rest casting more than per-encounter. I just try to look at it objectively.   

Edited by Boeroer
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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

A Wizard (especially multiclassed) can still make use of a rod + blast - but it's not tied to the wizard class now, any class can use Blast because it became a weapon modal. My go-to "Zeblastian" equivalent is an Arcane Archer/Helwalker or an Arcane Archer/Trickster with Watershaper's Focus nowadays. 

Kalakoth's Minor Blights + Blast doesn't work anymore since only rads can have blasts in deadfire and KMB is no rod. 

Bloodmages can regain spell uses by sacrificing health. They can also cast Wall of Draining (like most other wizards) which prolongs any benefical effect on them (as long as you hit enemies with it), including healing over time. Thus the Bloodmage can get spells back without any risk - including the use of Wall of Draining. It becomes a circle: Wall of Draining lets the healing never end, the healing allows to sacrifice health for new spells - one of them Wall of Draining - and so on. It's not necessary in a party composition most of times - but it's invaluable when going solo. Against single foes it doesn't work well though because you can't drain enough duration from a single foe.  

Arguably dual aoe hand mortars are more potent/fun then a slow rod blast. But again, that's not a wizard.

 

Regarding Blood Mages, of course eternally extending a healing effect (to keep recovering spells via blood sacrifice) is one way to do it. But generally in most fights, particularly in a party setting - you don't need to.

Vs enemy mobs Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon drain spell will keep you topped up just fine.

And of course, if in a party, you can benefit from party-wide healing/regeneration effects. In a party I rarely use Wall of Draining. Usually no need/no fun.

Edited by Haplok
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43 minutes ago, n00biwan said:

So lets keep the discussion on solo potd

We will not. The game is designed around party play, not solo. Also the OP uses a party. So if anything we should keep the discussion on party play - not on what you find particularly enjoyable. You can voice your opinion no problem. But this is not your thread and solo PotD wasn't the focus when you said that casters are "garbage".

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13 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

You are moving the goal posts:

You said that casters are disappointing and thrash in Deadfire. I reasoned that they are not and that the changes which were done are resonable ones - because the whole game mechanics got reinvented (see "self buffs are worse now" vs. "item effects do stack now/starting values are higher now/multiclassing" and so on ). I didn't say that Deadfire's casters are more powerful or even equally powerful than in PoE, just that weaker spell effects per se don't mean that casters are suddenly bad or no fun to play.

In PoE casters turned out to be the most powerful classes at high levels - because you could simply rest after each fight and spam those very impactful spells 4 times per rest per spell tier - and on top of that you'd have 4 tiers of spell mastery. That is cheesy as well - as cheesy as using Brilliant + SoT or Wall of Draining with Belt of Magran's Chosen or whatnot. Just because you like one cheese better than the other doesn't mean that this has to be the same for every player. 

With the change from per-rest to per-encounter and the introduction of multiclassing something had to change so that casters don't completely break the class balance. You couldn't just let Freezing Rake do the same amount of damage if you can cast if up to 3 times per encounter compared to 4 times per rest (if you didn't abuse resting). You couldn't let Priests keep their prayers when there's a whole new system of afflicitions and inspirations as counters. Especially when it was clear that Priests were the most impactful class in PoE in the first place even without them. 

The result of those changes is a portfolio of well-balanced classes: casters are viable and fun to play in Deadfire - even if some or even most of their spells got weakened (others got buffed by the way - look at Slicken). If you don't agree: fine. But I won't let you say such things without pointing out where you exaggerate, being ultra-subjective or are simply wrong. Such blatant and unjustified criticism might discourage players from even trying a caster. And what is won then?

Just because you are disappointed (because Freezing Rake does less damage now or because Citzal's Spirit Lance has less base damage) doesn't mean everybody else has to be. 

I don't even like the casters of Deadfire more than PoE's. I actually perfer per-rest casting more than per-encounter. I just try to look at it objectively.   

Thanks for finally agreeing with my point. Deadfire cheese requires 20 mins of prep time, poe1 "cheese" as you mentioned require me to rest after a fight. How is resting cheese?

I'm not saying caster classes are trash in deadfire, I'm saying that compared to poe1 caster classes, they are way way way worse.

Edit: go back and read my original reply , op started the thread asking about wizard in poe1 vs deadfire, I dont know about you, but i sure was disappointed to see how much less powerful casters in general became in the 2nd game.

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6 minutes ago, Haplok said:

Arguably dual aoe hand mortars are more potent/fun then a slow rod blast. But again, that's not a wizard.

Yes, I'm a big fan of mortars - in this case however I mean Watershaper's Focus specifially - because it jumps one time on its own and two times with Driving Flight. Which lets Arcane Archer's imbue spells trigger thrice. If you use Imbue:Web and Imbue:Eora from stealth the recovery malus doesn't matter much (-85% recoery from stealth) and you'll create a CC field of no escape for all enemies in range. Basically you cast 3 Pull of Eoras + 3 Binding Webs on the spot with two shots in a few secs. There are not many mobs that can withstand that. And on top of that there's a big chance to proc Ondra's Wrath (which will profit from Rogue's Sneak Attack and Deathblows - if you used Rogue in the first place). Or fire away with Stunning Surge which has a nearly 100% chance to crit because of the three AoE attacks. You are not fast after the first two shots but enemies can't move anyway... Fire in the Hole can also do that and a lot faster - but the very short range is a real bummer - I mean in this case. In other cases it's one of my favorites.   

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8 minutes ago, n00biwan said:

I'm not saying caster classes are trash in deadfire

Aha...
 

n00biwan said:

it doesnt change the fact the wizard in deadfire is absolute trash compared to poe1.

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1 minute ago, n00biwan said:

Read that last quote again, I dont know what your problem is with the amount of mental gymnastics going on here. "Compared to poe1" 

My problem is your approach to this discussion if that wasn't obvious.

Anyway, I think I made my points. Future readers may decide who made reasonable arguments and if "trash", "garbage" and such were the right terms to describe the caster classes and their abilites in Deadfire. In comparison to PoE or whatever you want to compare it to.

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