ShadySands Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 I've said before, the last time this came up, that I think increased national service opportunities would be a good thing so long as it isn't mandatory, which is my sticking point. I don't think I ever argued that Calax was wrong about national service not being limited to the military as that was in response to Bruce and ktchong. I don't think that conscription will have kt's desired effect as it will probably be sidestepped by those with the means to do so and if not then that's what champagne units are for. Not sure if something is getting mixed or not because I have been drinking since I don't know when. That reminds me, I need another drink 1 Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calax Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, ShadySands said: I don't think that conscription will have kt's desired effect as it will probably be sidestepped by those with the means to do so and if not then that's what champagne units are for. Certainly worked for El Presidente 1 Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, Calax said: True, but then it could also be seen as doing your Civic duty, akin to sitting on a Jury. don't even get me started on THAT! Right... like I'd ever get picked. No layer worth their salt would want me anywhere near their jury "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Calax said: Certainly worked for El Presidente Several of them! The bar for military service in government has really dropped off. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 Knowing the US someone will take Starship Troopers as the example for how to handle national service. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, Guard Dog said: Heck I think even those two examples are wide open to 14th amendment challenges fed prerequisites on funding which encourage or discourage behaviours is commonplace and established law. example: no fed tax payer dollars to fund abortions is okie dokie even though it disproportionate affects women who need medicaid. takes only a little creativity to prevent money from going to those who avoid service. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Gromnir said: fed prerequisites on funding which encourage or discourage behaviours is commonplace and established law. example: no fed tax payer dollars to fund abortions is okie dokie even though it disproportionate affects women who need medicaid. takes only a little creativity to prevent money from going to those who avoid service. HA! Good Fun! Now that you mention it that is exactly how they got states to set their highway speed limits "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raithe Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 Seeing all those protestors for "liberty" from the quarantine who dressed up in pseudo-Founding Father outfits, and George Washington masks and the like.. I do wonder how many of them remember that Washington is the only US President to lead armed troops against US Citizens. Citizens who were rebelling because of .. wait for it.. Taxes. "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, Raithe said: Seeing all those protestors for "liberty" from the quarantine who dressed up in pseudo-Founding Father outfits, and George Washington masks and the like.. I do wonder how many of them remember that Washington is the only US President to lead armed troops against US Citizens. Citizens who were rebelling because of .. wait for it.. Taxes. See? See? Sometimes I think we LOST that war! "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 30 minutes ago, Guard Dog said: Several of them! The bar for military service in government has really dropped off. Reminds me of reading a FB post accusing Obama of dodging the draft. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 27 minutes ago, Guard Dog said: Now that you mention it that is exactly how they got states to set their highway speed limits as well as a minimum age for alcohol consumption. no fed highway construction funds for states unless they set minimum age for alcohol to at least 21. south dakota, previous, were 19 minimum. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted April 23, 2020 Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 Seatbelt laws as well, IIRC. I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 the thing is, involuntary servitude is legal a bit different than seat belts, drinking age and speed limits, which is why we mentioned abortion. the US already provides all kinda advantages to those who serve in the military with va loans and gi college benefits. is not taking too much effort to functional expand such programs for "national" service while simultaneous diminishing benefits for those who forego such service. make fed funding programs contingent 'pon fulfillment o' those programs which aid those who served is gonna presumptive pass Constitutional review. best way to make a national service program work is with private and social pressure as 'posed to government. convince all the private universities and most major businesses to voluntarily adopt a policy whereby those who complete national service is given preferential treatment and you wouldn't need worry 'bout the Constitution. however, broad cultural/social change takes leadership as well as a nation far less polarized than 2020 USA. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 7 hours ago, Orogun01 said: So the US navy is in the South China Sea, get your uniform ready gents WW3 is back on the menu The US navy is in the SCS very regularly. They even toodle past China's self proclaimed island bases regularly, and US planes fly through China's ADIZ very regularly. Occasionally you get incidents over it like the mid air collision off Hainan (?) some years ago, but generally it's a big nothingburger. The US tends to ignore others' self proclaimed territorial waters, and always has. (The only unusual thing is that the US has two carriers in the nearby region effectively out of action due to coronavirus. 99% of the time fleet movements aren't any sort of prelude to war, they're just rotating assets.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Zoraptor said: The US navy is in the SCS very regularly. They even toodle past China's self proclaimed island bases regularly, and US planes fly through China's ADIZ very regularly. Occasionally you get incidents over it like the mid air collision off Hainan (?) some years ago, but generally it's a big nothingburger. The US tends to ignore others' self proclaimed territorial waters, and always has. (The only unusual thing is that the US has two carriers in the nearby region effectively out of action due to coronavirus. 99% of the time fleet movements aren't any sort of prelude to war, they're just rotating assets.) He tends to do a lot alarmist content like this, hopefully nothing will happen but its incredible the number of times we got close to an incident that could spark WW3. There were also rumors of CCPP sending infected people deliberately to the US in order to spread the infection. IDK what they would do if the US presence in the region was to collapse but they might try to take Taiwan by force. Also, it would be nice for the US to recognize Taiwan just as a big F you to China over this Wuhan flu thing. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Amentep said: Seatbelt laws as well, IIRC. Now there is one I find really irritating. I'd do some civil disobedience on that on but I do actually wear it. I was paying attention in science class when they covered Newton's laws of motion. But it galls me to be told I HAVE to. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 8 hours ago, ShadySands said: I've said before, the last time this came up, that I think increased national service opportunities would be a good thing so long as it isn't mandatory, which is my sticking point. I don't think I ever argued that Calax was wrong about national service not being limited to the military as that was in response to Bruce and ktchong. I don't think that conscription will have kt's desired effect as it will probably be sidestepped by those with the means to do so and if not then that's what champagne units are for. Not sure if something is getting mixed or not because I have been drinking since I don't know when. That reminds me, I need another drink Also you assumed when I say I support conscription I meant deployment to military zones to see active combat like you did when you served your country patriotically I dont mean that and never did. The military has many other roles that are non-combative and people can serve there country in these other units as an exercise that could be both character building and constructive. I am not suggesting people need to fight wars Ktchong was trolling and race baiting as he normally does, I am not and dont do that when I make these types of points "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Gromnir said: the thing is, involuntary servitude is legal a bit different than seat belts, drinking age and speed limits, which is why we mentioned abortion. the US already provides all kinda advantages to those who serve in the military with va loans and gi college benefits. is not taking too much effort to functional expand such programs for "national" service while simultaneous diminishing benefits for those who forego such service. make fed funding programs contingent 'pon fulfillment o' those programs which aid those who served is gonna presumptive pass Constitutional review. best way to make a national service program work is with private and social pressure as 'posed to government. convince all the private universities and most major businesses to voluntarily adopt a policy whereby those who complete national service is given preferential treatment and you wouldn't need worry 'bout the Constitution. however, broad cultural/social change takes leadership as well as a nation far less polarized than 2020 USA. HA! Good Fun! Gromnir I want to get the input from you and others who understand the USA constitution and the principle of freedom of speech and how it can be abused especially now in the time of this global pandemic and more importantly going forward how this can be prevented My point starts with Fox news, I watched the excellent series " Loudest Voice in the room ", which is about Roger Ailes and the creation of the channel. Part of the success of this channel is that Ailes identified that many Americans didnt want to watch legitimate and necessarily factual news but would be more interested in theater and news that confirmed there aspirations and biases. So the news from Fox news basically at times didnt need to be always fact checked. The reality is he was right as we can see from the success of Fox I also recognize that Fox News does have legitimate news so this is not a sweeping generalization and we also see theater and questionable news from other channels But then the evolution of Fox, or some would argue the erosion of Fox news, reached the point below where Trish Reagan in the early days of the virus and before it became unequivocal the true nature of virus claimed basically it " was a left wing conspiracy theory and an attempt to impeach the president " https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/27/media/trish-regan-fox-news/index.html Trump has definitely exacerbated the "alternative facts and fake news " dichotomy but this problem did exist before Trump which leads to my final point How did the USA, the most successful and influential country and economy in the world , end up at this point and how do we prevent this or reduce this type of media hyperbole so that it cannot lead to misinformation in a time like the global crisis where misinformation can cost lives? If the likes of Fox news can spread fake news like Trish Regan did under the auspice of freedom of speech doesn't this need to be somehow changed Constitutionally, is that even possible legally ? Edited April 24, 2020 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 2 hours ago, BruceVC said: Also you assumed when I say I support conscription I meant deployment to military zones to see active combat like you did when you served your country patriotically No, I only assumed you wanted to send ktchong to Afghanistan. I do disagree with conscription though and was surprised to see that you support it. I thought this was fixed Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, ShadySands said: No, I only assumed you wanted to send ktchong to Afghanistan. I do disagree with conscription though and was surprised to see that you support it. I thought this was fixed My comments around Ktchong was just making a point on his level of trolling The reality about conscription in the USA is its never going to be realistically implemented for numerous reasons but that doesnt mean we cant discuss its benefits because there are countries that nowadays practice, or offer alternative services, conscription that are Democracies and respect human rights However I then did some research and based on the list below most countries that have mandatory conscription actually arent Democracies at all or have appalling human rights records So in fact my point is moot because the majority of Democracies that I support dont have it or have stopped legalizing it which means you right overall about conscription not being a reasonable or feasible approach governments should follow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 2 hours ago, BruceVC said: My comments around Ktchong was just making a point on his level of trolling The reality about conscription in the USA is its never going to be realistically implemented for numerous reasons but that doesnt mean we cant discuss its benefits because there are countries that nowadays practice, or offer alternative services, conscription that are Democracies and respect human rights However I then did some research and based on the list below most countries that have mandatory conscription actually arent Democracies at all or have appalling human rights records So in fact my point is moot because the majority of Democracies that I support dont have it or have stopped legalizing it which means you right overall about conscription not being a reasonable or feasible approach governments should follow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription Feasibility and reasonability of conscription depends lots of country's general defensive situation. For example for Finland other options really aren't feasible if we want to maintain ability to defend most of our country. Also Israel and South Korea have similar geopolitical location where other options aren't really options at least today. It is easier to not have conscription when your neighboring country doesn't have several battalions of attack ready troops 50 km of your border 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) Nowadays Americans are more fond of shooting brown people at home than brown people abroad. Edited April 24, 2020 by HoonDing 1 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 18 minutes ago, Elerond said: Feasibility and reasonability of conscription depends lots of country's general defensive situation. For example for Finland other options really aren't feasible if we want to maintain ability to defend most of our country. Also Israel and South Korea have similar geopolitical location where other options aren't really options at least today. It is easier to not have conscription when your neighboring country doesn't have several battalions of attack ready troops 50 km of your border Elerond did you do military service or alternative service, I see Finland is on the list ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Elerond did you do military service or alternative service, I see Finland is on the list ? I did military service 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Elerond said: I did military service Was it useful? Like do you feel ready to defend your country? Was it a lot of skying and shooting and learning how to curse in Russian? 1 I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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