Unbroken/Trickster worth it?

[AeonsLegend]

So I played Trickster before and Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage is completely busted on melee builds. I played this with fighter and monk and enemies that engage you end up just killing themselves by breaking engagement. I have never played Unbroken, but with Trickster it seems really good. Does anyone have any experience with this?

I was thinking about the combo:

• Reckless Brigandine
• Overbearing Guard
• Hold the Line
• Mob Stance
• Shield for the extra engagement slot (could go with medium shield options or with a buckler that can be used as a weapon)
• Any Weapon, although AoE weapons like Magran's Favor are preferable

Buff up -> Wade into the fray and let all enemies engage you (up to 5) and then cast Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage. Then you can probably go get a coffee while enemies kill themselves.

 

[Boeroer]

It is very nice in a party. I did nearly the same setup you listed but used Kapana Taga (so I could get +2 more engagement and have dual dmg) and a large Shield (Cadhu Scalth - lowers all damage via Metaphysics, alöso looks great with Reckless Brigandine) + modal "the Wall". Because in combo with Adept Evasion you can shower your own Unbroken/Trickster with AoE spells that target Reflex and he will almost never get a scratch while the enemies die. You can use Escape and Charge to move anyways. I also used Riposte since Vigorous Defense stacks with Mirrored Image so they miss a lot (not good in Turn Based mode though).

Hold the Line + Kapana Taga + Shield + Reckless Brigandine + Persistent Distraction would give an Unbroken 7 engagement slots without Defender Stance if I'm not mistaken. I think 5 or 6 is most reasonable - more is not worth it. So I wouldn't pick Hold the Line then.

A spear with modal like Stalker's Patience is a great alternative (does more dmg than Kapana due to raw DoT and only has 1 less engagment slots). Then Hold the Line could be good. 

Sungrazer can also be nice. If you are surrounded and get attacked a lot Riposte may quickly trigger one of the AoEs of Sungrazer which get all the Sneak Attack bonuses etc. Same thing with the disengagment attacks.

I used White Witch Mask for most of the game (can spare you a but of Guile and boosts the Trickster's Illusions and looks good withthe Brigandine) and later the Champion's Helm. With Armored Grace, Abraham pet and Reckless Brigandine you get pretty good speed for a fat Brigandine setup.

The terrify/disengagement effect does no work 100% of times. But often enough to be quite effective.  

[AeonsLegend]

I had the spear in my list as well, but it only does piercing damage so that kind of puts me off with all the pierce immune enemies in the game. Was hoping for a Spartan PC bullwark type for RPing purposes. I didn't even know about the engagment slot modal. Thanks! I know large shields are better especially Cadhu Scalth because of the deflection bonus, but the -8 accuracy on normal attacks is a bit much. 

The terrify disengagement doesn't need to work 100% of the time with Mob stance. Due to Rogue you deal so much damage per hit you are very likely to crit and overpen with such a build so the damage will be through the roof. If you notice an engagement loss on an enemy that is about to walk away you can always re-engage yourself and trigger the disengagement bonusses.

I think the boni are like this with Unbroken and Overbearing Guard:

+20 Accuracy base disengagement +15 from overbearing guard for a total of +35 Accuracy

+100% damage from base disengagement +50% from overbearing guard for a total of 150% bonus damage.

+10 bonus penetration from Unbroken on disengagement attacks.

 

Are there any other bonus to disengagement attacks from items or such?

I was also going to combine the build with Riposte obviously due to using the shield. So I probably would definitely be able to get a coffee during some fights.

I myself always use Thao's Headdress for a bonus of 5 accuracy and 5% damage on flanked targets plus the +1 int is useful and +5 Will buff on party.

 

Isn't sungrazer AoE friend or foe? It's why I never used it... this is why I was considering Magran's Favor as it also has a burn AoE.

I was also thinking of Endre's Flog of Obedience due to the bonus +2 penetration on enemies affected by mind afflictions.

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

I had the spear in my list as well, but it only does piercing damage so that kind of puts me off with all the pierce immune enemies in the game. Was hoping for a Spartan PC bullwark type for RPing purposes. I didn't even know about the engagment slot modal. Thanks! I know large shields are better especially Cadhu Scalth because of the deflection bonus, but the -8 accuracy on normal attacks is a bit much. 

 

For a Spartan vibe I'd use Bronlar's Phalanx (and Gladiator Sword - which is rather good for a tankish, high deflection build actually).  

If you pick spears: there's one that has pierce/slash which can be your backup weapon: Kahua Hozi

- 8 ACC isn't too bad since disengagement attacks have higehr ACC (+10 +20 if I'm not mistaken) and Unbroken kan have Disciplined Strikes (+5 PER/graze to hit/hit to crit) and Dirty Fighting (hit to crit) which results in a nice 32.5% hit-to-crit conversion. If combined with Confident Aim you also get a great graze-to-hit conversion. I never had problems with the lower accuracy. Also because with Persistent Distraction you lowers all engaged enemies' deflection by 10 through flanked anyway and automatically.

Also Kapana Taga helped me since it gives you +4 ACC per engaged target which is of course very nice. 

The effects of "the Wall" in combination with party nukers and with ranged enemmies is just too good to pass for me. 

3 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Are there any other bonus to disengagement attacks from items or such?

  From the top of my head I can only come up with "One Dozen Stood" armor with the great "Dont let him Through!" and the "Stall for Time" enchantments - which is kind of redundant with Overbearing Guard - but still. 

3 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Isn't sungrazer AoE friend or foe? It's why I never used it... this is why I was considering Magran's Favor as it also has a burn AoE.

Don't really remember - I know the burn damage from Keeper of the Flame is causing friendly fire. But I never had problems with Sungrazer. I tanked as the only tank with only enemies around me - so the AoE never really reached my party in the first place - and the combo of the Wall + Adept Evasion most problaby wouldn't let me notice if I hit myself. But I think it's foe-only. Did a quick test with a Shadowdancer + Sungrazer yesterday evening and noticed no friendly fire with Sungrazer. The reason I don't use it regularly is that actually the whole kaboom becomes rather annoying (visually) after some time. Can't see anything...  Same when I used Grave Calling + Chilling Grave and the paralyze against vessels: too many VFX... 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Boeroer

[Madscientist]

Nice, but I will use steel garrote paladin instead of unbroken fighter, as in this build

The fighter has more engagement, mob stance and more powerful disengagement attacks, but the paladin has higher defenses and I heal myself with almost every attack I make. With the shild you mentioned and the armor suggested by thelee your defense would be really high. In the best case I just stand there and drink tea while enemies die around me and I get healed.

I do not play on PotD or upscaled, so I do not know how well a tank can survive there. But for other difficulties it should be more than enough.

[AeonsLegend]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

For a Spartan vibe I'd use Bronlar's Phalanx (and Gladiator Sword - which is rather good for a tankish, high deflection build actually).  

If you pick spears: there's one that has pierce/slash which can be your backup weapon: Kahua Hozi

- 8 ACC isn't too bad since disengagement attacks have higehr ACC (+10 if I'm not mistaken) and Unbroken kan have Disciplined Strikes (+5 PER/graze to hit/hit to crit) and Dirty Fighting (hit to crit) which results in a nice 32.5% hit-to-crit conversion. If combined with Confident Aim you also get a great graze-to-hit conversion. I never had problems with the lower accuracy. Also because with Persistent Distraction you lowers all engaged enemies' deflection by 10 through flanked anyway and automatically.

Also Kapana Taga helped me since it gives you +4 ACC per engaged target which is of course very nice. 

The effects of "the Wall" in combination with party nukers and with ranged enemmies is just too good to pass for me. 

  From the top of my head I can only come up with "One Dozen Stood" armor with the great "Dont let him Through!" and the "Stall for Time" enchantments - which is kind of redundant with Overbearing Guard - but still. 

Don't really remember - I know the burn damage from Keeper of the Flame is causing friendly fire. But I never had problems with Sungrazer. I tanked as the only tank with only enemies around me - so the AoE never really reached my party in the first place - and the combo of the Wall + Adept Evasion most problaby wouldn't let me notice if I hit myself. But I think it's foe-only. Did a quick test with a Shadowdancer + Sungrazer yesterday evening and noticed no friendly fire with Sungrazer. The reason I don't use it regularly is that actually the whole kaboom becomes rather annoying (visually) after some time. Can't see anything...  Same when I used Grave Calling + Chilling Grave and the paralyze against vessels: too many VFX... 

Ah that's good to know. Too bad the Kahua spear is far into the story and kind of forces you down an "evil" plot line. But I can work with that. I coud of course "cheat" 

I will probably test some builds and different item combinations going forward. I don't mind crazy  VFX. I mean you saw my LDV screenshot. That actually lowered my framerate and I didn't even have Mob Stance there

46 minutes ago, Madscientist said:

Nice, but I will use steel garrote paladin instead of unbroken fighter, as in this build

The fighter has more engagement, mob stance and more powerful disengagement attacks, but the paladin has higher defenses and I heal myself with almost every attack I make. With the shild you mentioned and the armor suggested by thelee your defense would be really high. In the best case I just stand there and drink tea while enemies die around me and I get healed.

I do not play on PotD or upscaled, so I do not know how well a tank can survive there. But for other difficulties it should be more than enough.

You can make many combinations with this. I also have Wizard/Fighter (Aloth) rocking this setup and also a Monk/Trickster with Karabörü. But I wanted one where I could go drink coffee and see if it worked on it's own. Paladin/Trickster, Wizard/Fighter and Monk/Trickter cannot pull that off. Also Fighter/Trickster gets a tad bit more deflection than Paladin overall. Doesn't get the armor rating, but with all the party regen going on, I don't need the Paladin. I just want to see the screen explode with flying limbs after I cast Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage.

[Boeroer]

If I'd use Steel Garotte instead of Unbroken I personally would use Whsipers of the Endless Paths (Offensive Parry) + Riposte since I'd get a lot more draining attacks that way than from disengagement attacks (that come on top of that of course once I'd use Repulsive Visage). You can divide the combat in two parts that way:

1. Tank all enemies that want to attack you and use Beacon, Eternal Devotion and Offensive Parrty/Riposte to dish out dmg (and drain).
2. Once it's too much to take use Repulsive Visage to scatter them and deal disengagement damage. You can even switch to another weapon set I guess (e.g. Amra + Bleeding Cuts) right after casting Repulsive Visage because the recovery malus doesn't matter for disengagement attacks and the base dmg of WotEP is quite low compared to other great swords. That is if switching doesn't cancel engagement briefly (didn't test).

Unbroken is all about engagement and disengagement. So it makes sense to build an Unbroken/Trickster and abuse the disengament mechanics with Repulsive Visage and at the same time profit from Sneak Attack, Deathblows and Deep Wounds while debuffing everybody who's engaged passively with Persistant Distraction. 

Both fulfill a bit different roles for me. I'd use the Unbroken to hold as many enemies as possible while punishing them, too. It's more of a "CC by engaging" approach. The Steel-Garrote/Trickster cares more about himself. 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Isn't a disengagement attack a full attack? Could go dual wield for more damage...

[Boeroer]

It's a primary attack with +20 ACC and +100% dmg. So dual wielding doesn't do anything. It's better for Riposte and Mob Stance tough. I mean if you can still stack enough deflection or lower enemies' ACC.

[AeonsLegend]

I see, well then with all the free hits it's possibly best to go two handed if you want more damage then.

Side note. Doesn't the +15% crush damage on the WotEP kind of counter the low base damage as this is a lash?

[AeonsLegend]

Just did some calculation with WotEP and unbroken/trickster max level and I should be able to dish out 130+ damage per hit on disengagement attacks on average. Not too shabby.

Answered my own question. A normal Legendary greatsword ends up doing ~150 damage per hit

[Boeroer]

If I'm not mistaken then WotEP's base damage is only 9-15 (average 12). A normal Great Sword has 18-24 (average 21). Let's add the lash to the base damage because it's multiplicative, too:

WotEP: 14 vs. Great Sword 21. so WotEP has roughtly 67% of the damage output ot normal Great Swords. 130 vs. 150 doesn't seem right. If the great sword does 150 then WotEP should do around 100. I mean if I'm not having nasty brain farts atm...

The overall dps will still be higher (as long as you are getting attacked in melee) because you get those awesome free attacks without any recovery from Offensive Parry (they also profit from Sneak Attack and all that). 

But an Unbroken without Shield and with WotEP will have lower deflection and reflex and also only gain 5 engagement slots max (Unbroken + Hold the Line + Persistnt Distraction + Reckless Brigandine + Blackened Palte Helmet: bad looking combo ) without Defender Stance. That's why I like WotEP better with non-Unbroken.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

I took the numbers from the website. I think they're the old numbers. I calculated with 16 average damage for WotEP. It is indeed 12. Dang that makes a huge difference. Set at 104 damage in the calculation sheet.

Don't really know if I need all the engagement slots if I don't plan on using them for very long. I would only need 3 I think, even if I'm engaged by 4 or 5 enemies at the same time I will strigger the disengagement on 1 or 2 of them and then trigger the Mob Stance cleave attack on others. But then getting a coffee is probably off the table. If I use Karabörü I get bonus to crits which will allow me to deal over 200 damage per crit, which can be increased per enemy killed by 2%. Chances are that this will kill most mobs and if I'm lucky I will trigger the secondary AoE attack on Karabörü as well for some extra delicious damage.

Probably a good idea to equip Entonia Signet Ring when engaged with this many enemies.

So here's the deal. Devoted would deal more damage as it has +2 pen on all attacks. Possibly never going to need that extra 8 when you crit. (11 legendary GS + 2 devoted + 2 tenacious) * 1.5 Crit = 22,5 penetration. Even if it's just normal penetration, it would still deal more damage on crits due to the extra 25% crit damage I think.

I will lose an engagement slot. So I'd have to go with Reckless Brigandine, Blackened Plate Helm Persistent distraction and Hold the Line for a total  of 5 slots. Possibly could lose the helm or hold the line for another option. Yes the deflection will be lower so you won't trigger the Riposte attack. Thing is, riposte and disengagement don't synergize. It's fun if possible, but most enemies will be running away from you and not attacking you.

Just calculated a char with max level Swashbucker ends up with 22 + 57 deflection without resolve. That's 79 base deflection. Add cloak of Greater deflection, Entonia signet Ring (x5 engagement), Vigorous Defense, Greater Deflection and Llengrath's displaced image and you get 79 + 7 + 10 + 20 + 4 + 10 = 130, you can stack this with Moonwell for 140. This is without a shield or any other item/potion/buff to deflection. I'd say that's very reasonable. On Veteran not much is actually going to hit you.

[AeonsLegend]

I think that when going for a Riposte build then Nerian's Ward is likely the better choice as it has a hit to miss conversion of 15%. Basically increasing your effective deflection by 5 with even Acc vs Def. Becomes more effective the stronger the opponent is. Which is exactly what you'd want. Of course Casità Samelia's Legacy is the better armor then as you can increase your deflection by another 9-10 then. Getting into numbers such as 170+ (with Nerian's Ward)

[AeonsLegend]

Another option would be willbreaker which synergizes with Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage to add a 8 bleed per 3 secs for 12 secs (Total 32 damage) to crits. Also has 13 penetration fully upgraded and 2 damage types of which 1 is crush which is the superior damage type out of all three physical ones. Doesn't have AoE or Crit bonus, but does have a 10% hit to crit conversion. also decreases enemy will on hit to make sure Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage can hit more often on tougher oponents. The Oppressive Fear ability is wasted, but whatever. 

Really thinking of going with this weapon as it also has a nice flair to it. So now the choice would be do I go with Unbroken or Devoted if I go with a 2-hander? Or should I stick to the Unbroken and go with a shield...?

[Boeroer]

37 minutes ago, AeonsLegend said:

I took the numbers from the website. I think they're the old numbers. I calculated with 16 average damage for WotEP. It is indeed 12. Dang that makes a huge difference. Set at 104 damage in the calculation sheet.

On the website the damage of Exceptional (+30%) is included because the blade comes exceptional. If you substract that you get the base damage.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Just now, Boeroer said:

On the website the damage of Exceptional (+30%) is included. If you substract that you get the base damage.

Why would anyone do that? That is so confusing. Ok got it. Don't look at website, look at in-game item.

[Boeroer]

38 minutes ago, AeonsLegend said:

Probably a good idea to equip Entonia Signet Ring when engaged with this many enemies.

Entonia Signet doesn't care how many enemiey you engage. It's the other way round: It counts how many enemies do engage you. So if you fight enemies who don't have engagement (like tigers or so) it does nothing.

[AeonsLegend]

3 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Entonia Signet doesn't care how many enemiey you engage. It's the other way round: It counts how many enemies do engage you. So if you fight enemies who don't have engagement (like tigers or so) it does nothing.

But then you also will not get a disengagement attack from them when you walk away. Is that correct? That doesn't sound right.

[Boeroer]

20 minutes ago, AeonsLegend said:

I think that when going for a Riposte build then Nerian's Ward is likely the better choice as it has a hit to miss conversion of 15%. Basically increasing your effective deflection by 5 with even Acc vs Def. Becomes more effective the stronger the opponent is. Which is exactly what you'd want. Of course Casità Samelia's Legacy is the better armor then as you can increase your deflection by another 9-10 then. Getting into numbers such as 170+ (with Nerian's Ward)

Cadhu Scalth with high Athletics or Bronlar's Phalanx do give you higher deflection than the Ward (every point of added deflection has increasing returns). But it will surely also work well with the Ward. Casita or (Gipon Prudensco) are the best to raise your deflection, right. 

[Boeroer]

1 minute ago, AeonsLegend said:

But then you also will not get a disengagement attack from them when you walk away. Is that correct? That doesn't sound right.

Correct. If theycan't engage you you can't break it.

Doesn't prevent you from engaging them of course.