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Military Thread: Humanity Hanging from a Cross of Iron


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On 7/21/2021 at 8:09 AM, Sarex said:

Yeah I just found out about this project yesterday.  Whilst I suck at aviation mechanics, I can't help but get the feeling that a plane dubbed 'Checkmate' will have the pentagon quite rattled.

Everything boils down to cost, if it's far cheaper than the F-35 but with still adequate performance, think T-34 vs. Panther in tank terms, I'd say "Checkmate" indeed!

AndTheyDon'tStopComin'AndTheyDon'tStopComin'AndTheyDon'tStopComin'

Edited by ComradeYellow

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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22 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

Yeah I just found out about this project yesterday.  Whilst I suck at aviation mechanics, I can't help but get the feeling that a plane dubbed 'Checkmate' will have the pentagon quite rattled.

Everything boils down to cost, if it's far cheaper than the F-35 but with still adequate performance, think T-34 vs. Panther in tank terms, I'd say "Checkmate" indeed!

AndTheyDon'tStopComin'AndTheyDon'tStopComin'AndTheyDon'tStopComin'

The MiG-21, -23, and -29 (for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations respectively) were all supposed to be "checkmate" aircraft. None of them worked out that way at all, with popularity peaking with the -21 and sharply dropping thereafter, because customers learned that indeed especially with Russian products, you do get what you paid for -- i.e., garbage. The only thing the Russians are good at is bombast.

Besides, this lame aircraft will also have China's FC-31 as a cheap export competitor, and nowadays the Russians are not only behind the West technologically but also behind the Chinese.

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17 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

The only thing the Russians are good at is bombast.

Ah, Americans.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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4 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Besides, this lame aircraft will also have China's FC-31 as a cheap export competitor, and nowadays the Russians are not only behind the West technologically but also behind the Chinese.

Yeah what's holding Russia back the most is their crappy oligarch "Mafia" economy that governs the entire country, ensuring reforms will never happen, as they should be looking towards China's near perfect "mixed" (60% POE's, 40% SOE's) economy for inspiration.  USSR and Nazi Germany had roughly equal economies at the time of clash in 1941.  Russia doesn't come anywhere near China or the U.S. these days so they are a secondary power at best.

Still, their military should not be underestimated, as neutral sources are claiming that the Russian army could beat the U.S. Army on flat field with no naval or air support.  The Checkmate reportedly is 1/3 the cost of the F-35 and far cheaper to maintain and better on fuel consumption, if these are bought en masse I mean what can 30 F-35's do against 130 Checkmates?

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“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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Meh, what's the point of even considering scenarios between one plane that literally doesn't exist and another that has never fired a shot in anger air superiority wise. If there was going to be a large scale air battle the US would likely use F22s anyway. They're simply better at that than the F35, which is hobbled by having to take the main role of the western air force into account- bombing brown people whose countries happen to exist on western resources. Besides, we all know how that sort of argument ends, with one side talking about how their amazing technology will destroy the other without them even seeing each other, the only variable is which technology they think will be the deciding factor.

The interesting thing about the Su 75 is that it's specifically said to be designed to be used as a drone if wanted, and even that isn't all that interesting since a plane designed without having to take squishy meatsacks into account should (on paper at least) outperform one that does.

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2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Meh, what's the point of even considering scenarios between one plane that literally doesn't exist and another that has never fired a shot in anger air superiority wise.

We're on the Internet, what else is there to do but argue about who can beat up who.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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17 minutes ago, Malcador said:

We're on the Internet, what else is there to do but argue about who can beat up who.

*has flashback to Superman vs Goku debates on usenet*

*dies*

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Superman vs Goku as an example instead of the Enterprise vs a Star Destroyer?

The former is completely pointless and a very short debate, since obviously Superman would win.

(I have to admit I do rather like the trope being named Cavemen vs Astronauts)

Edited by Zoraptor
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9 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Superman vs Goku as an example instead of the Enterprise vs a Star Destroyer?

The former is completely pointless and a very short debate, since obviously Superman would win.

(I have to admit I do rather like the trope being named Cavemen vs Astronauts)

Goku by the end of one of the DBZs was supposedly able to destroy solar systems vs Superman who in the silve age could move sun's around and was more or less immortal..those debates never ended.

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7 hours ago, Amentep said:

*has flashback to Superman vs Goku debates on usenet*

*dies*

Completely off topic, but I wonder how many people around here were active on Usenet?

I sometimes participated in alt.rec.games.interplay and alt.rec.games.baldurs-gate not being too keen on this newfangled “forum” nonsense, which looked like an internet version of Fido net

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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5 hours ago, Amentep said:

Goku by the end of one of the DBZs was supposedly able to destroy solar systems vs Superman who in the silve age could move sun's around and was more or less immortal..those debates never ended.

The thing with Superman is that he always gets strong enough to overcome the challenge, while that is not always the case with Goku (There is now Dragon Ball Super btw).

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20 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

@kanisatha I dunno. The way I hear it, the only thing that can shoot down the SU-75 is the S-500. ;) :lol:

I imagine you meant the Su-57. But yeah, I will grant that the S-500 system is probably the best area AD system in the world right now. The performance parameters of the Su-57, however, are very much questionable.

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17 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

Still, their military should not be underestimated, as neutral sources are claiming that the Russian army could beat the U.S. Army on flat field with no naval or air support.  The Checkmate reportedly is 1/3 the cost of the F-35 and far cheaper to maintain and better on fuel consumption, if these are bought en masse I mean what can 30 F-35's do against 130 Checkmates?

I actually agree, and do believe that if US and NATO forces had to fight the Russians either in Ukraine or in the Baltic republics in the near future, they will get their asses handed to them in relatively short order. But this has nothing to do with technology comparisons. US and NATO forces are technological superior by a wide margin. It's their morale, training, and will to stand and fight, alongside US and NATO people's willingness to sacrifice and accept casualties that I seriously question and which will doom the West. I mean, if the Taliban can chase us out of Afghanistan and Iranian militias can chase us out of Iraq ....

Re. "Checkmate," the cost estimates are all well and good, but ultimately it comes down to performance. And I don't see much performance value in Russian 5th gen platforms at all. Take the MiG-35, built purely for export at a very low cost. Despite costing only a fraction of what Western 4.5 gen aircraft cost, nobody wants it. Yes countries want low cost, but not at the expense of quality/performance.

Also, talk of the F-35 being bad is just utter nonsense, being fed by ignorant idiot news media types. Every single country that has operated it has their pilots only raving about its performance. Yes, just like any other revolutionary platform, it is having some teething issues, issues that will be overcome in time. But it is very much a revolutionary platform for future air operations with incredible capability.

Edited by kanisatha
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12 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

I imagine you meant the Su-57. But yeah, I will grant that the S-500 system is probably the best area AD system in the world right now. The performance parameters of the Su-57, however, are very much questionable.

Afaik, the new Checkmate fighter is designated Su-75.

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6 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Afaik, the new Checkmate fighter is designated Su-75.

Ah I see. I thought you were referring to Russia's F-22 equivalent, which is already flying as the Su-57.

Seems like designation number inflation is even higher in Russia than in the US military. ;)

Edited by kanisatha
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US Marine Corps experimenting with drones launched from grenade launchers

it’s too bad we didn’t have cool stuff like this back when I was in. When we wanted to find out what was going on over the next hill we had to send somebody to look. And it was usually somebody we figured we could do without LOL

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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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6 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Also, talk of the F-35 being bad is just utter nonsense, being fed by ignorant idiot news media types.

I don't think anyone agrees that it's bad, the U.S. is just as unhealthily obsessed with its planes the way the British were unhealthily obsessed with its ships in the 19th century.

It's just as U.S. starts to wane in global influence, it becomes more subjected to criticism in all aspects, which is arguably the strength of the U.S. in general: self criticism.  As long as a significant portion of the population bitches about how sh---y we are as a country, intelligent and well paid brains construct that criticism into national strength xD

The Chinese may have stolen F-35 data and used it to construct the FC-31, but honestly if that's true it is nothing new.  Apple, the worlds largest corporation, is both subject to numerous lawsuits and is filing numerous lawsuits for data theft, and the Chinese are operating as a meritocracy, which is virtually identical to a corporation so lax security is to blame here.

Edited by ComradeYellow

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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On 7/24/2021 at 6:59 AM, kanisatha said:

 

Re. "Checkmate," the cost estimates are all well and good, but ultimately it comes down to performance. And I don't see much performance value in Russian 5th gen platforms at all. Take the MiG-35, built purely for export at a very low cost. Despite costing only a fraction of what Western 4.5 gen aircraft cost, nobody wants it. Yes countries want low cost, but not at the expense of quality/performance.

 

While there has been much speculation on the airframe's potential performance and capabilities based on its outward appearance (mind that about 5% of total R&D time and costs for today's fighters are the airframe, with 40% going to engines and the other 55% in sensors and avionics), my outlook thus far is that most have missed asking the correct question about the program: Who's going to buy a pig in a poke?

Fifteen years ago with Russia's civil aviation going the way of the Dodo in the face of Airbus and Boeing and military aviation kept on life support by the then still relevant Su-27/30 series the entirety of Russian aerospace was merged into a single state-owned, centrally-controlled monstrosity only Lenin could love, the UAC (OAK in Russian). Management of the different sectors in this new concern were subsequently delegated to various loyal cronies of Putin, almost to a man none had any background in engineering, military aviation, or industrial management (think Jen Barber from the IT Crowd), the last person with anything like this was fired from RAC MIG in 2015-2016). As a result subsequent aerospace products have had an ever widening gulf between what customers specified and what UAC design bureaus, and most importantly Putin, had in mind. This effect was most beautifully illustrated by India's involvement in the PAK-FA. When the Indians helped keep the lights on for Sukhoi they had requested a two-seat strike version (the VVS possibly wanted this too) all the while Sukhoi insisted on a single seat F-22 analogue. Thus when the Indians got a non-compliant craft which might as well have had "Sorry" stenciled on one of the wings and critical capabilities missing and likely not forthcoming (specifically an integrated targeting pod with a rotating head) the Indians unceremoniously pulled the plug on their involvement in the project. Today to hear Putin tell it the Felon has managed to wheeze into the finish line of beginning "serial production" but with further orders only coming after the delivery of the first 75 airframes, its final engine design stuck in development hell, and its low numbers and largely single-role nature making it a rather disproportionate drain on VVS resources (for this reason the F-22 was slated for retirement sometime in the 2030s) future prospects for the type continue to look bleak. 

Then there comes the matter of current competition in the market today. If we have at the very top end (or what the Swiss have called "the Ferrari option") is the F-35, the current "Checkmate" seems to target the segment currently occupied by Eurocanard fighters (Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen), but even with stealth such is an uphill battle (especially so when Sukhoi flat-out admitted that the stealth capabilities of the Su-57 do not compare well with the F-22 and F-35). Many air force's given the choice between exotic capabilities but poor integration with Western systems (LITENING targeting pod, Paveway laser-guided kit, even MICA missiles) and more established systems with very good integration with said systems will almost always go with the latter every time. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Su-30 with French avionics and compatibility with LITENING and Damocles targeting pods enjoys far more export success than the Su-35 which has almost entirely domestic content. As Joseph Trevithick put it:

xEyIvxs.png

Edited by Agiel
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"Turned wrong way round, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as 'History,' harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

-Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

 

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8 hours ago, Agiel said:

While there has been much speculation on the airframe's potential performance and capabilities based on its outward appearance (mind that about 5% of total R&D time and costs for today's fighters are the airframe, with 40% going to engines and the other 55% in sensors and avionics), my outlook thus far is that most have missed asking the correct question about the program: Who's going to buy a pig in a poke?

Fifteen years ago with Russia's civil aviation going the way of the Dodo in the face of Airbus and Boeing and military aviation kept on life support by the then still relevant Su-27/30 series the entirety of Russian aerospace was merged into a single state-owned, centrally-controlled monstrosity only Lenin could love, the UAC (OAK in Russian). Management of the different sectors in this new concern were subsequently delegated to various loyal cronies of Putin, almost to a man none had any background in engineering, military aviation, or industrial management (think Jen Barber from the IT Crowd), the last person with anything like this was fired from RAC MIG in 2015-2016). As a result subsequent aerospace products have had an ever widening gulf between what customers specified and what UAC design bureaus, and most importantly Putin, had in mind. This effect was most beautifully illustrated by India's involvement in the PAK-FA. When the Indians helped keep the lights on for Sukhoi they had requested a two-seat strike version (the VVS possibly wanted this too) all the while Sukhoi insisted on a single seat F-22 analogue. Thus when the Indians got a non-compliant craft which might as well have had "Sorry" stenciled on one of the wings and critical capabilities missing and likely not forthcoming (specifically an integrated targeting pod with a rotating head) the Indians unceremoniously pulled the plug on their involvement in the project. Today to hear Putin tell it the Felon has managed to wheeze into the finish line of beginning "serial production" but with further orders only coming after the delivery of the first 75 airframes, its final engine design stuck in development hell, and its low numbers and largely single-role nature making it a rather disproportionate drain on VVS resources (for this reason the F-22 was slated for retirement sometime in the 2030s) future prospects for the type continue to look bleak. 

Then there comes the matter of current competition in the market today. If we have at the very top end (or what the Swiss have called "the Ferrari option") is the F-35, the current "Checkmate" seems to target the segment currently occupied by Eurocanard fighters (Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen), but even with stealth such is an uphill battle (especially so when Sukhoi flat-out admitted that the stealth capabilities of the Su-57 do not compare well with the F-22 and F-35). Many air force's given the choice between exotic capabilities but poor integration with Western systems (LITENING targeting pod, Paveway laser-guided kit, even MICA missiles) and more established systems with very good integration with said systems will almost always go with the latter every time. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Su-30 with French avionics and compatibility with LITENING and Damocles targeting pods enjoys far more export success than the Su-35 which has almost entirely domestic content. As Joseph Trevithick put it:

xEyIvxs.png

Yup, and the Su-75 is basically a single-engined version of the Su-57 with the exact same technology but downgraded somewhat for export. Even the engine is the same as the Su-57, which is just an upgraded version of the Su-35 engine, whereas the F-35's engine is a revolutionary new engine just like the aircraft itself (which is why the F-35 engine is also going through some teething and parts issues).

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