Project for a Balance Mod

[Kaylon]

For rangers I consider Distraction Training complete garbage (only weak enemies miss the pet and you don't need more accuracy against them). My idea was to change it to restore 1bond when the AC is missed by an enemy.

[Boeroer]

Shadowed Hunters: I wouldn't use an additive damage bonus. Like with Assassinate and Backstab this favours weapons with high base damage - and I don't think that this is a good approach for a stealth ability. 

Distraction Training: absolutely agree. Has anybody ever taken it? Who would want to spend a high PL ability point for something like this? Gaining 1 Bond per miss on AC would make it very potent. Maybe too much? Maybe have a chance like with Fighter's Toughened Fury?

Edited February 15, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Kaylon said:

For rangers I consider Distraction Training complete garbage (only weak enemies miss the pet and you don't need more accuracy against them). My idea was to change it to restore 1bond when the AC is missed by an enemy.

 

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Distraction Training: absolutely agree. Has anybody ever taken it? Who would want to spend a high PL ability point for something like this? Gaining 1 Bond per miss on AC would make it very potent. Maybe too much? Maybe have a chance like with Fighter's Toughened Fury?

Indeed, this ability is so bad on paper that no one even sees it was even worse in reality (due to applying pet Intellect)

If only weak ennemy miss the pet, a simple solution would be to also apply it on Graze. A slide of 25 dice roll threshold would help.

I thought about the Bond restoration too, but I saw a few (non blocking) issues :
- Getting bond back when facing weak ennemy would also feel like an overkill.
- Would make Rogue the only single class martial without ressource restoration. Either it would feel bad for Rogue, or I will have to add a Guile Restoration effect. In the later case, all martial single class would feel a bit too similar for my taste...
- Bond Restoration is so precious that it would feel sort of mandatory. Given that you only get 3 Tier IX ability point and you probably want Prestige, it may reduce Single Class Ranger build diversity (that's why I'm also considering lowering Blood Surge to Tier VIII).

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Shadowed Hunters: I wouldn't use an additive damage bonus. Like with Assassinate and Backstab this favours weapons with high base damage - and I don't think that this is a good approach for a stealth ability. 

Totally agree. For the moment, what I'm thinking about is a 8 raw damages stacking per 3 seconds (applied on next attack), for both pet and ranger, to mirror the healing effect.
Using Takedown Combo on top of that would still be an option.
Reducing defense based on Invibility time would work but it would be a debuff within a buff with multiple effects. A bit too complex to describe and use, sort of "abilityception".

What I'm wondering is :
- Should it cost 2 or 3 Bonds ? 3 Bonds would feel expensive if only used for repositionning, but 2 bonds would feel cheap if used for longer. Also 2 Bonds would make it almost strictly superior to Deadly Surprise.
- Would it be OP for Solo (or full single class rangers party) ? 

[Kaylon]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I
- Would make Rogue the only single class martial without ressource restoration. Either it would feel bad for Rogue, or I will have to add a Guile Restoration effect. In the later case, all martial single class would feel a bit too similar for my taste...
 

The rogue has Gambit which allows to recover the spent Guile and spam it multiple times. The ranger has nothing comparable. Another possibility would be to change Twinned Shot to get back the resources on crit, like the rogue...

[thelee]

On 2/14/2020 at 1:45 PM, Elric Galad said:

So maybe 15s for Liberating Command & Upgrade ? (1 Zeal)
And also 15s for Hastening command & Upgrade, but adding an extra +15% action speed to Hastening Command too ? (1 Zeal)

EDIT : Or just give Nimble for 15s to Hastening command,
           Nimble + Strong to 1st upgrade
           Swift to 2nd upgrade
Nimble is just fun tactically that I think it would fit Paladin perfectly.

i think working within the framework of your vision, liberating 1 zeal for 15s and doing base 25s for hastening for 1 zeal (with no other changes) is probably good. even with the added flexibility of 1 zeal cost, i think it's pretty important for liberating to be much better than priest's suppress affliction, because in base game the paladin vs priest comparison was that the paladin was giving up some of the diversity of support in favor of narrow specialization (e.g. spammable lay on hands healing, instant-speed full-health revive, long-lived suspension, etc.). if it was at 10s, then that narrow specialization flavor would be lost (identical to priest), even if mathematically it's very similar to what was before (modulo the action economy).

in the base game, hastening exhortation already compared poorly to liberating command (benefiting only from longer duration and the potential for further upgrades), so getting only a minor duration loss at half zeal cost doesn't seem OP to me. I think adding +15% action speed to hastening would sorta muddy the paladin, or rather muddy the monk and barbarian classes.

Edited February 15, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

14 hours ago, Kaylon said:

The rogue has Gambit which allows to recover the spent Guile and spam it multiple times. The ranger has nothing comparable. Another possibility would be to change Twinned Shot to get back the resources on crit, like the rogue...

Gambit can only recover its own guile. The only thing it provides is hope. Hope to cast it for free.
The average cost of Gambit spam is probably somewhere between 1-2 Guile with reasonably favorable circumstance, unless I'm missing something. You can probably do better (very high Acc and Aware inspiration), at least versus weak ennemies, but saying it is a free ability is probably an overstatement.

Setting Twinned Shot to 1 Bond is IMHO a much more reliable way of increasing Ranger DPS Sustainability.

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, thelee said:

i think working within the framework of your vision, liberating 1 zeal for 15s and doing base 25s for hastening for 1 zeal (with no other changes) is probably good. even with the added flexibility of 1 zeal cost, i think it's pretty important for liberating to be much better than priest's suppress affliction, because in base game the paladin vs priest comparison was that the paladin was giving up some of the diversity of support in favor of narrow specialization (e.g. spammable lay on hands healing, instant-speed full-health revive, long-lived suspension, etc.). if it was at 10s, then that narrow specialization flavor would be lost (identical to priest), even if mathematically it's very similar to what was before (modulo the action economy).

OK, Liberating Exhortation set to 15s for 1 zeal on my local version.

 

11 hours ago, thelee said:

in the base game, hastening exhortation already compared poorly to liberating command (benefiting only from longer duration and the potential for further upgrades), so getting only a minor duration loss at half zeal cost doesn't seem OP to me. I think adding +15% action speed to hastening would sorta muddy the paladin, or rather muddy the monk and barbarian classes.

Totally agree with that. Action speed increase was not a good idea for the reason you mentionned.

25s Hastening Exhortation is fine (and easy to code ) but I'll be much more comfortable if it had its own effect.

That's why I'm suggestion Nimble for 15s (1 zeal). Nimble provides something that will never fully obverlap with Liberating Exhortation (and fitting to ability theme).
Of course Zealous Exhortation would have to be changed to Swift. Swift is nice to save your backrow glasscannon when engaged.
Nimble and Swift also feel like the tactical tools a "battle commander" would like.

[Kaylon]

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Gambit can only recover its own guile. The only thing it provides is hope. Hope to cast it for free.
The average cost of Gambit spam is probably somewhere between 1-2 Guile with reasonably favorable circumstance, unless I'm missing something. You can probably do better (very high Acc and Aware inspiration), at least versus weak ennemies, but saying it is a free ability is probably an overstatement.

Setting Twinned Shot to 1 Bond is IMHO a much more reliable way of increasing Ranger DPS Sustainability.

I think you're definitely missing something

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Kaylon

[Elric Galad]

35 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

I think you're definitely missing something

 

Okay, Bond on Miss pet seems indeed a popular idea. Not the first time it is discussed on this forum by the way.

I think I'm going to implement 25% chance of restored bond on Hit (similar rate as toughened fury after Community Patch) and set it to Tier VIII (to avoid a Tier IX crowd).
Does not feel OP.

Shadowed Hunters will probably stay at 3 bonds, but I will add my "backstab over time" idea (8 raw damages on next attack per 3s while invisible for both pet and ranger). If ranger has acess to bond restoration, 3 bonds cost is probably not that critical. I will have to test it a bit in game.

[falchen]

I think heart seeker needs to be foe only, because of its targeting and the size of the cone it’s currently impossible to not also hit your melee when you use this.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, falchen said:

I think heart seeker needs to be foe only, because of its targeting and the size of the cone it’s currently impossible to not also hit your melee when you use this.

Yes, I agree, good idea.

EDIT : It has to be noted that Heartseeker doesn't benefit from AoE Weapons and Bouncing weapons (even Driving Flight). This is a big limitation to potential gamebraking combo. That's why I think 3 Bounds and Foe only is still balnced. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, falchen said:

I think heart seeker needs to be foe only, because of its targeting and the size of the cone it’s currently impossible to not also hit your melee when you use this.

This thing is unfortunately hard-coded...

[Elric Galad]

On 2/15/2020 at 7:50 AM, Kaylon said:

For rangers I consider Distraction Training complete garbage (only weak enemies miss the pet and you don't need more accuracy against them). My idea was to change it to restore 1bond when the AC is missed by an enemy.

Well, I've tried to implement this a few times and I ran into some problems :

What you describe is a Pet passive that would, under certain circonstance, "auto-target the ranger" to restore 1 bond.

The problem is that "auto-targeting" a particular target isn't easy to implement. There are a few ranger abilities, that auto-target the pet (so there is a way to auto-target the pet with a ranger ability), but the contrary isn't true.


I also tried to implement a % chance of bond restored on ranger Crit if sharing the same target as the pet (based on Stalker's Link code). This didn't work either. Not sure why, but maybe combining the "share target" condition with the "% Chance on Crit" wasn't suppose to work.


I would like to provide a way for ranger to get Bond back with a passive, but I don't want to competely change the Distraction Training icon (made by Boeroer) or its link with the pet.
Unless I create a new ability ? What should it be ? Problem is that I would have to reuse an Icon for this, which would be meh. EDIT : I can use the old "Ranger generic icon" for a new passive, as it isn't use for any ability after CP icons have been installed.


Feel free to suggest !

Edited February 20, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Phenomenum]

 

Also, you're forgot about Five Suns upgrades.

 

{
    "GameDataObjects": [
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_Ranged",
            "ID": "c7e54c9d-39c0-480a-90df-b8da5f34c0c3",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PenetrationRating": 9
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_BrandEnemy_Ranged",
            "ID": "a704b9f4-13bb-46a0-843b-5d7d17ca79b5",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PenetrationRating": 9
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_SwornRival_Ranged",
            "ID": "56bfcead-d346-46cc-8bd4-0b12cb8d257a",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PenetrationRating": 9
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns",
            "ID": "a9f07686-a064-4733-82f6-37dd1784c77a",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PowerLevelScaling": {
                        "ScalingType": "Default",
                        "BaseLevel": 0,
                        "LevelIncrement": 1,
                        "MaxLevel": 0,
                        "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 1,
                        "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "AccuracyAdjustment": 0,
                        "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25
                    }
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_BrandEnemy",
            "ID": "2df1aa92-df90-4a01-bb58-f4b94943b280",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PowerLevelScaling": {
                        "ScalingType": "Default",
                        "BaseLevel": 0,
                        "LevelIncrement": 1,
                        "MaxLevel": 0,
                        "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 1,
                        "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "AccuracyAdjustment": 0,
                        "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25
                    }
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_SwornRival",
            "ID": "b6ebb36d-5552-44ed-acf0-a5cbd910c901",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PowerLevelScaling": {
                        "ScalingType": "Default",
                        "BaseLevel": 0,
                        "LevelIncrement": 1,
                        "MaxLevel": 0,
                        "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 1,
                        "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "AccuracyAdjustment": 0,
                        "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25
                    }
                }
            ]
        }
    ]
}

Edited February 21, 2020 by Phenomenum

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, you're forgot about Five Suns upgrades.

  Reveal hidden contents

{
    "GameDataObjects": [
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_Ranged",
            "ID": "c7e54c9d-39c0-480a-90df-b8da5f34c0c3",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PenetrationRating": 9
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_BrandEnemy_Ranged",
            "ID": "a704b9f4-13bb-46a0-843b-5d7d17ca79b5",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PenetrationRating": 9
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_SwornRival_Ranged",
            "ID": "56bfcead-d346-46cc-8bd4-0b12cb8d257a",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PenetrationRating": 9
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns",
            "ID": "a9f07686-a064-4733-82f6-37dd1784c77a",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PowerLevelScaling": {
                        "ScalingType": "Default",
                        "BaseLevel": 0,
                        "LevelIncrement": 1,
                        "MaxLevel": 0,
                        "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 1,
                        "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "AccuracyAdjustment": 0,
                        "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25
                    }
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_BrandEnemy",
            "ID": "2df1aa92-df90-4a01-bb58-f4b94943b280",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PowerLevelScaling": {
                        "ScalingType": "Default",
                        "BaseLevel": 0,
                        "LevelIncrement": 1,
                        "MaxLevel": 0,
                        "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 1,
                        "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "AccuracyAdjustment": 0,
                        "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25
                    }
                }
            ]
        },
        {
            "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Wrath_of_the_Five_Suns_SwornRival",
            "ID": "b6ebb36d-5552-44ed-acf0-a5cbd910c901",
            "Components": [
                {
                    "$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
                    "PowerLevelScaling": {
                        "ScalingType": "Default",
                        "BaseLevel": 0,
                        "LevelIncrement": 1,
                        "MaxLevel": 0,
                        "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 1,
                        "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,
                        "AccuracyAdjustment": 0,
                        "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25
                    }
                }
            ]
        }
    ]
}

Oh, nice ! How is it done ?

Wrath of the five suns upgrades can't be picked in-game, even if they exist in the gamedata files (which is another reason why WotFS is Bad). It doesn't hurt to update them anyway, just in case someone want to mod this too.

[Phenomenum]

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Wrath of the five suns upgrades can't be picked in-game, even if they exist in the gamedata files (which is another reason why WotFS is Bad). It doesn't hurt to update them anyway, just in case someone want to mod this too.

Actually, my idea was to clear upgrade restrictions for Pallegina... Still need to test.

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Oh, nice ! How is it done ?

It's magic.

So, the idea is:
1. Debuff must follow the initial idea of ability. Disorientation fits perfectly in my opinion.

2. Add some resistance to pet (i set 100% just for testing purpose). So natural Misses will be connected to Resistance - it allow to apply debuff more frequently, regardless of foes accuracy + increase pet durability. Connected with +engage slots abilities, pet should effectlively hold the line and debuff up to 3 enemies most of the time. Suits for me as hi level passive.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

That's nice.

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

Actually, my idea was to clear upgrade restrictions for Pallegina... Still need to test.

I think it might be nice, indeed. But I overbuffed WotFS a bit because of the upgrade restriction.
Fearly easy to tweak down if needed.

3 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

It's magic.

So, the idea is:
1. Debuff must follow the initial idea of ability. Disorientation fits perfectly in my opinion.

2. Add some resistance to pet (i set 100% just for testing purpose). So natural Misses will be connected to Resistance - it allow to apply debuff more frequently, regardless of foes accuracy + increase pet durability. Connected with +engage slots abilities, pet should effectlively hold the line and debuff up to 3 enemies most of the time. Suits for me as hi level passive.

Got it. Somehow I thought that the self buff was applied to the ranger, which was interesting to get bond back.
Anyway, the idea is nice.
I'm not a big fan of the Distracted Part because it is close to Rogue's Persistant Distraction and stack poorly with various stuff. But I have never checked if Distraction Training itself stacks (it's a passive, so maybe). Of course, it goes well with the name.
Melee Resistance is nice, for the reason you say. It doesn't have to be very high as long as it guarantees to walways provide a chance of distraction.

Be cautious with the Debuff Duration because it uses the Pet's Intellect.

Do you plan to include it on a Mod ? CP Update ?


I was considering adding a Passive to ranger to recover some bond. One easy option would have been a very slow bond recovery (Something like 1 bond every 30s - 60s) called "Survivor Bond". This goes well mechanically with Shadowed Hunters and the "Survivor Aspect" from SSS DLC. It's not much but could be nice for boss fights.

But if anyone has a better idea. Or maybe Rangers are fine without Bond regen... ?

[Phenomenum]

I'm working on CP addon, but feel free to use my proposals/ideas in your Balance Mod. 

[Phenomenum]

I have another idea - simply tune down some bosses HP. Especially megabosses.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Phenomenum

[Phenomenum]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Got it. Somehow I thought that the self buff was applied to the ranger, which was interesting to get bond back.

Maybe it's better suits for Heart Seeker ability? +1 Bond on Crit or something. Since you can target miltiple enemies it can significally reduce total ability cost, or even more, if you're lucky. Similar with Rogue Gambit - high stakes, high reward.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Phenomenum

[draego]

isnt heart seeker ranged only if so that would hurt melee builds 

[Elric Galad]

39 minutes ago, draego said:

isnt heart seeker ranged only if so that would hurt melee builds 

Good point.

[draego]

lol ye i may be in the minority but i generally play melee rangers and dont want to see all the cool stuff go to ranged abilities.

Edited February 22, 2020 by draego

[Phenomenum]

Well, agreed. It was just random thought - not a good one.