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I love the Athenian democracy.  Truly a standout time for literature and art.  The speech that Thucydides attributes (made up, really) to Perikles is an annual read for me.  It's beautiful either in translation or in Greek.  However, you're entirely right.  Athens proved how terrible democracy can be.  The creative destruction of freedom is brilliant, but it throws out as much heat as it does light, and that heat typically ends up burning down the Democracy itself.  The founders were extremely distrustful of unbridled direct democracy.  So far, over our history, we've managed to put that creative destruction to great use.  As an aside, it's always good to steal Marxist terms and put them to pro-capitalist use.  HA!

If I were not Catholic, democracy would be my religion and the Republic would be my church.  I assume it will eat itself someday, but what a glorious thing until then!

"Not for the sake of much time..."

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Democracy works great, it's just once in a while you need to wipe the floor with the blood of your enemies to clean it up and make it work again.  New and improved.  Every 80-100 years or so. Why not?  You can advocate for peace and non-violence and be ready for a conflict at the same time, right?

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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3 minutes ago, MedicineDan said:

I love the Athenian democracy.  Truly a standout time for literature and art.  The speech that Thucydides attributes (made up, really) to Perikles is an annual read for me.  It's beautiful either in translation or in Greek.  However, you're entirely right.  Athens proved how terrible democracy can be.

Not sure if I'm much of a fan of Athenian democracy... I guess it was nice. If you were a wealthy, white, old, male. Otherwise you were excluded from the decision making processes.

I would like to think humanity had progressed just a little bit in the millennia since. But, then I look a modern societies and realize, we probably really haven't evolved much the last 2500 years, still being a bunch of primitive savages 🤔

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:03 PM, Gorth said:

Ask yourself, who owns the media? Especially the popular ones. Last time I checked Rupert Murdoch owned a **** load of the worst ones and is a rabid Trump supporter, hence a situation a bit like Berlusconi's grasp on power in Italy for a long time (he owned most of the media, hence, there was never really any "fair" election campaigning going on).

Something the Russians at least seems to be aware of, using bots and teams of dedicated "influencers" to manipulate popular opinions, if not outright writing their favourite on the ballots, then spreading out some wide nets trying to catch the stagglers and fence sitters to make them vote fodder for their preferred candidate.

And the Lord thou sayeth to the United States of America:  Wherever Russia goes, there you shall go also.

Our fates seem to be intertwined, or else the U.S. would have easily sided with the Nazi's in WW2 instead of implementing a Stalin inspired New Deal.

Edited by ComradeMaster

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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3 hours ago, Gorth said:

Not sure if I'm much of a fan of Athenian democracy... I guess it was nice. If you were a wealthy, white, old, male. Otherwise you were excluded from the decision making processes.

I would like to think humanity had progressed just a little bit in the millennia since. But, then I look a modern societies and realize, we probably really haven't evolved much the last 2500 years, still being a bunch of primitive savages 🤔

wait

so what changed from athenian democracy?

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54 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

wait

so what changed from athenian democracy?

 

The two obvious things from top of my head are the requirement to be male and to be a land owner have been taken off the table.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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7 hours ago, Gorth said:

Not sure if I'm much of a fan of Athenian democracy... I guess it was nice. If you were a wealthy, white, old, male. 🤔

So nice that leaders could get exiled for no reason or executed for following it's decrees.
There were good reasons why it was hated by aristocrats and philosophers. 

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7 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Our fates seem to be intertwined, or else the U.S. would have easily sided with the Nazi's in WW2 instead of implementing a Stalin inspired New Deal.

Stalin was forced to switch sides when Germany attacked Russia. He wasn't inspiring anything.

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

 

The two obvious things from top of my head are the requirement to be male and to be a land owner have been taken off the table.

One of those was good decision the other one not so much.

Edited by Skarpen

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15 hours ago, Gromnir said:

 

we had no illusions 'bout impeachment trial. we knew it were doomed from the start. we nevertheless supported impeachment 'cause this President made it impossible for men o' conscience to continue to ignore his continuing and flagrant disregard of the Constitution.

 

Hey, you know me. I'm a huge fan of Quixotic political endeavors. But the House of Representatives and the Senate should have agreed to a Congressional Censure in lieu of this futile impeachment. Sun Tzu would tell you that if a battle can't be won it should not be fought. I expect Pelosi & Schiff could have gotten a lot of Republicans on board by selling that as an alternative to this messy impeachment on the condition of Republican participation. A bipartisan Censure might not be the whole cake but at least it would be a piece of it. Right now we have nothing. Less than nothing really because Trump is crowing like a rooster. His support appears to have hardened among voters. And, worst of all, the Executive Branch is even further empowered. The worst possible outcome and it was the ONLY outcome that could have happened. Stupid. Sometimes it's wiser to take the justice you know you can have. At the very least it could have given the eventual Democrat nominee a tool to use against him. Instead... nothing.

The 3 yard screen pass can often get you farther than a hail Mary attempt. 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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Lincoln Chafee is entering the Presidential race. He is a candidate for the LP nomination. Well, considering he's running against two party hacks with a history of saying stupid things, a former NH State Senator and convicted felon, and some guy no one has ever heard of, I'd say the nomination is his for the asking.

I don't think much of Chaffe but if he is our candidate I'll vote for him. Simply put there are no better options. I CAN not vote for a Democrat, and I WILL not vote for Trump. 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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I don't the Republicans would have agreed to anything to be honest. He's too vital to their reelections and they're also mostly afraid of his wrath. I do think that the house should have gone harder for witnesses and evidence even I'm also sure it would have also been disregarded. 

Didn't Chafee run against Hillary in the primary last time around? IIRC he was kind of a wet noodle

Free games updated 3/4/21

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19 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I don't the Republicans would have agreed to anything to be honest. He's too vital to their reelections and they're also mostly afraid of his wrath. I do think that the house should have gone harder for witnesses and evidence even I'm also sure it would have also been disregarded. 

I don't understand this notion about evidence and witnesses in Senate. From what I read Democrats claimed when they forwarded the impeachment articles to the Senate that the evidence and witness testimony they already had are rock solid and there is no doubt about the presidents fault. So... why would you need more evidence and witnesses for something you proved beyond any doubt? Doesn't make ounce of sense.

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“We’re losing our damn minds”: James Carville unloads on the Democratic Party

other than his defense o' the hillary clinton campaign, am largely agreeing. admitted, we tend to use fewer profanities, but such paucity o' four-letter words in our impassioned arguments is a personal affectation less than it is a judgement.

as an aside, there is a picture we got o' our self alongside J. Scalia and José Pertierra taken at a barbecue with all o' us in casual attire. amuses us 'cause almost everybody who sees the picture reads something complete different into the image. oh, and let us make clear the image were a once-in-a-lifetime kinda thing. am not claiming to be (or have been) a peer o' either individual. weird coincidence which resulted in a memorable moment.

HA! Good Fun!

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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2 hours ago, Skarpen said:

I don't understand this notion about evidence and witnesses in Senate. From what I read Democrats claimed when they forwarded the impeachment articles to the Senate that the evidence and witness testimony they already had are rock solid and there is no doubt about the presidents fault. So... why would you need more evidence and witnesses for something you proved beyond any doubt? Doesn't make ounce of sense.

The House isn't where the trial happens.

My understanding - congressional committees (like the House Judicial Committee) takes evidence or accusations of malfeasance and investigates.  The results of the investigation is passed on to the full house who votes on the Articles of Impeachment, or the formal accusation.  The Senate is supposed to take the formal accusation and try the accuded.

So my layman's understanding is the congressional committee is like the police and prosecutors who bring their evidence to the House, which is like a grand jury, and if the grand jury recommends proceeding, the the senate acts as the trial venue for the accused on the charges brought forth (in the Impeachment).

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me.

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Well I was told that repeatedly that impeachment is not a trial and trial rules don't apply so I don't know what to think about this.

 

In other news White House  just fired Ukraine Minister of Defence Mr. Vindman.

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1 hour ago, Amentep said:

stuff

wasn't gonna correct, but we had a couple observations, which in retrospect is so unnecessary 'cause the President's (and fox news parrots and other supporters) process arguments is utterly w/o merit and just so... stoopid. evil dems felt confident enough to bring this thing to trial so obviously they didn't need an eyewitness who was at every important meeting and can give us a first hand account of the most important events relevant to the matter before the senate. is a fantastic excuse for excluding such evidence.

*groan*

however, we do have one more observation 'bout the carville article linked 'bove.

lsu graduation rate

might be a teensee bit o' an exaggeration to say lsu has an "unusually high graduation rate." ranks 81 on list o' 4yr publics? am agreeing the nyt bit were arrogant and divisive, and just the kinda thing which is making it more difficult for democrats to chip away at trump's base, but carville's factual representation is a stretch.

HA! Good Fun! 

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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To counter Huawei, U.S. could take 'controlling stake' in Ericsson, Nokia: attorney general

 

Ooh! It's at the tip of my tongue! What is it called when a privately-held company becomes a state-owned enterprise again?

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"Turned wrong way round, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as 'History,' harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

-Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

 

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1 hour ago, Agiel said:

To counter Huawei, U.S. could take 'controlling stake' in Ericsson, Nokia: attorney general

 

Ooh! It's at the tip of my tongue! What is it called when a privately-held company becomes a state-owned enterprise again?

when reading the 'bove post, complete inexplicable, we thought of the tax breaks manufacturing industry business is getting from this administration to allow 'em to better face industry competitors as well as the billions in subsidies farmers is receiving to prevent 'em from suffering the effects o' free market forces. 

nevertheless, republicans may go to sleep tonight knowing they is safe from the scourge o' socialism as long as trump is 'round to protect 'em.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited by Gromnir
punctuations
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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17 hours ago, ShadySands said:

 

Didn't Chafee run against Hillary in the primary last time around? IIRC he was kind of a wet noodle

That is actually a very generous assessment of the man. 

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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14 hours ago, Skarpen said:

In other news White House  just fired Ukraine Minister of Defence Mr. Vindman.

And his twin brother, I heard. Which would be a federal offense, no? But I guess since the senate is under his control and he doesn't face consequences for his criminal activity, Baron Harkonnen can do whatever the **** he likes. 

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On 2/7/2020 at 2:46 AM, Boeroer said:

giphy.gif

It's true though. FDR, like Stalin, nationalized much of the economy and built schools, roads, hospitals, farming subsidies, banking and much more.  It's just Stalin was a dictator was able to ruthlessly drive his policies to the max, which ensures he'll always be seen as a "bad" figure in history (which he admitted) but which ultimately saved the USSR from the Nazi beast.

"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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