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Tinkering cost too high to make practice worthwhile.


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I think tinkering is a good idea; taking a piece of equipment you like and keeping it relevant by raising its level. The problem is that regardless of the item's starting level It costs more to raise a level 1 gun into a level 10 than it does to turn a level 30 gun into a level 35. The cost to tinker rises exponentially which discourages tinkering altogether. It wouldn't break the game if tinker prices were linear since you can freely pick up high-level gear anywhere anyway. Having a high Engineering skill doesn't fix the problem.

I also find it odd that you use bits to tinker equipment while weapons and armour each require their own parts to repair. Surely it would make more sense to use parts to tinker, given their lack of use otherwise?

 

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I think they looked around sometime in development and said oh we need a currency sink so lets use tinkering.  I am disappointed with how engineering is utilized I have some googles and a piece of armor that allows me to get it to level 90 but I don't get any of the bonuses shown for equipping them.  I agree that one of the bonuses to upping engineering should of been a reduction in tinker cost as it is odd that it costs more to raise that low level up to a higher level that still won't compete with the higher level equipment you can use.  I wonder if the item level system and tinkering where developed separately then tried to be smooched together to give us the current system.  It is also odd that a lot of the named items  you find can't be tinkered with or modified, this means that the common drop with the right mods  and application of tinkering can become better and more customized to how you play.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Tinkered weapons are the same damage/defense stats as their MK2/gold/ultra versions at the same level. Rather than have weapons of different levels spawn in world they are bracketed to 2 levels of "advancement" despite being the same with potentially more modification slots. It just comes off as artificial progression because they didn't want to make more weapon and armor models. Each company could easily have entire gear sets dedicated to their design philosophies (****ty gear for spacers choice for instance- good starter gear) and be used to pace the game flow but instead you get 3 sets of armor and a 2 weapons per type the entire game.  

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Tinkering cost are only too high if you're trying to max out every weapon you touch. If you stick with one or two weapons, swap out for tier 2 weapons when they become available, and invest in Science, then tinkering is actually quite manageable. Everything else is a trade off (which players should expect to encounter in a RPG).

Edited by Achilles
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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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im finding tinckering when done systematically and with specific focus as they become available to be a good addition with a few minor tweaks to make it great

(uniques are a different story, for me)

as Achilles said, limited tinckering and the willingness for timely swapping is key

** as ive asked before and will experiment with as i get later in the game:  as of now, i dont understand the “costs too much” argument as one should NOT tincker the lower starting level weapons any further when a higher level one is found

** has applied to uniques, as well:  only slightly higher at each tinck compared to the SAME leveled normal

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I have increased the Science skill with 10 points at each new level until I reached 100. I liked the increase in damage for plasma and shock and the reduction in tinkering cost to -90%.

Weapons and armor can be leveled up with tinkering up to +5 from your current player level. So you have to get higher level weapons and armor at a higher player level and upgrade with tinkering (instead of keeping and upgrading the weapons you already have).  E.g. a Dead-Eye assault Rifle II upgrading from a start level of 27 to level 35 (at player level 30 i.e. MAX) can be done at reasonable tinkering costs. Using Shock ammunition you can kill a trooper with 1 or 2 shots and a commander with 2 or 3 shots. Also a plasma rifle can be upgraded to a damage level of 350 or higher for killing beasts.

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It's very difficult to not feel like some of the design of this game was rushed and cheap (low-effort). Like trying to have all these skills and trying to figure how they can be implemented into gameplay. For example, the high cost of Tinkering makes it so that users will want to invest more points into lowering the cost.

In my own experience, I've personally had a really difficult time with this mechanic. Firstly, I went really out of my way to spend a ton of points really early in the game into getting that 50% discount. And Tinkering was still really really rough on my finances. I use Spacer's Choice Light Pistols as my main weapons. Spacer's Choice Handguns - body counts at a discount. One with a pulse clip, and one with a shock clip. The Tier-2 version isn't available until level 12 (since it's a level 16 weapon, and afaik, you need to be at least 4 levels below an item to access it anywhere). Thus, I had to use it from level 1-11. And as I got closer to level 11, the cost of Tinkering them (even with 50% off), was insane. I would have liked to get them to at least level 12 along the way. But I didn't even get them past level 8. Maybe level 10. Can't really remember. But I also had a Spacer's Choice AR and Saber as my third and fourth weapon which I Tinkered up even less.

Like I said, this is just my own experience. If there's more to this design that I'm not understanding, I would like to know about it. Because even going a non-tech build, it seems really necessary to boost Science just to get the Tinkering up. I guess the Tech category in general is important for any combat-focused build.

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I don't have a crazy amount of points in science in my second play-through (only 40 instead of 100), but it doesn't seem that bad to me. You can't realistically expect to upgrade anything forever and the first few tinkers are cheap. There are bits everywhere, though if you use them to progress the main plot or bribe NPCs often then I suppose you could be feeling the squeeze. But well, that is your fault for spending your bits differently.

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3 hours ago, Mushashi7 said:

I agree. The cost for Tinkering is too high.
Instead of tinkering I wait for a high level weapon to turn up somewhere. I guess this was not the idea with tinkering?

It was kind of an odd design of a couple systems being effected by the option.  On the one hand you have the science weapons that are only really good if you tinker with them while building your character to make the best use of them.  Then you have the named/special items that are really only good for a few levels if you find them around your current level other then that they get outclassed.  Then you have the regular type of items that are best tinkered with at higher levels, if you try to keep the lower level items at your same level it gets very expensive.  The rule of thumb I use is once the item tinker cost gets beyond 1k I go looking for a higher level weapon. 

The feel I got was there where different people developing the different weapon types in parallel with each other with no or minimal communication occurring between them.

The majority of the build I have played just use the regular weapon drops with minor tweaking and mods.  The sciences weapons are only good for specific build although the effects can be fun to mess around with damage wise for a build not specked to use them they get outclassed easily by the regular weapons.  I feel the same way about the named weapons although I do have my captains crate filled with them I rarely use them.

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Tinkering should just cost weapon parts and more of them. I've never found myself having a shortage of weapon parts that I need to break down weapons/armors. Those always go to the junk pile--it's annoying when you have one item in your inventory that you want to keep and your cursor drifts over to the left causing you to accidently junk it when you're junk spamming items.

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Tinkering is like computer parts.  Every once in a while you need a full replacement of gear and some tune ups along the way but keeping the same old crap and trying to get it to perform to modern standards is not worth the time and money.  

The Groundbreaker and most vendors offer some great up-to-level gear and it's not terribly expensive especially if your reputation is good.

Edited by ComradeMaster

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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10 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Tinkering is like computer parts.  Every once in a while you need a full replacement of gear and some tune ups along the way but keeping the same old crap and trying to get it to perform to modern standards is not worth the time and money.  

The Groundbreaker and most vendors offer some great up-to-level gear and it's not terribly expensive especially if your reputation is good.

I think this is probably valid, assuming that one doesn't care too much about rare and/or expensive weapon mods.

I think tinkering probably appeals to players who acquire the weapon that they want, get is modded to fit their play style, and have no interest in swapping it out until the +15 version of the same is available.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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I do agree that maybe making tinkering costs exponential wasn't the best solution, though it does incentivize swapping weapons more often and theoretically makes you think twice about installing rare mods. Ultimately I just feel like the system could be improved/fine-tuned, especially if a sequel had better weapon progression, but it's obvious that The Outer Worlds didn't have an enormous budget and the luxury of starting with a lot of weapons inherited from a previous game, like Fallout: New Vegas did.

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16 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Tinkering is like computer parts.  Every once in a while you need a full replacement of gear and some tune ups along the way but keeping the same old crap and trying to get it to perform to modern standards is not worth the time and money.  

The Groundbreaker and most vendors offer some great up-to-level gear and it's not terribly expensive especially if your reputation is good.

I make it a point to not use rare mods in low level gear, just the basic ones that you find in bulk, and take up lots of inventory space I might add!

It's not perfect and yes the tinkering system could some...tinkering if/when sequels come out. 

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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6 hours ago, ABearIsHere said:

I do agree that maybe making tinkering costs exponential wasn't the best solution, though it does incentivize swapping weapons more often and theoretically makes you think twice about installing rare mods.

I get the "theoretically makes you think twice about installing rare mods" part.I'm not sure I understand the "it does incentivize swapping weapons more often" part. The system exists specifically for people who *don't* want to swap their weapons more often; i.e. "I'm tinkering with this because I like this weapon and I want to keep it relevant".

As for the mods part, you really just have to hope that you'll find two of them and/or be prepared to drop some serious bits to buy them when you see two of them in shops.

As for cost, on my last playthrough, I ended the game literally broke...but I had also tinkered my primary weapon to 35, my secondary weapon to 30, all of my companions primary weapons to 30, and everyone's (except my PC's) starting clothing/armor to 17-25.

It's a money sink. It sinks money. It doesn't have to be all of your money (like it was for my build), but again, in an RPG the player should expect to find trade offs.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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It's a choice between either sinking money into upgrading the weapon you've custom-fitted exactly how you want, or swapping to a Mk II/Ultra version that is generic and doesn't have the mods you want.

Obviously, this is just when we're discussing the base weapons, Science Weapons and Uniques can only be upgraded via Tinkering and there isn't an alternative to that, so in that specific case, it's a money sink (especially for builds that don't have high combat abilities, which can compensate for the level difference/lower base DPS).

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I guess I'm not understanding why it's an either/or.

In my last playthrough, I looted the base version of the weapon that I wanted, modded it, and used tinker to keep it at parity until I looted the +15 version of the same weapon later. I modded that one, sold the old one, and tinkered the "new" weapon to level 35. Repeat for my secondary weapon and all my companion weapons, with the exception that I only tinkered those to level 30.

To be fair, I was almost literally throwing bits away to take it from level 30 to level 35, but I didn't have anything else to use them on....which is kinda the point.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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