Science Weapons - useless?

[Wormerine]

My original plan was to build character around using science weapons - I always like those unique weapons.

However, so far they seem extremely unvaible. 

You need to get to level 80 of science to cap tinkering with those weapons so you can actually upgrade them (didn't reach that point). I imagine 100 would be desirable to not spend a fortune on those weapons (depending on what the cap is). 

Even when I got my first weapon and it's level was around my other equipment but did 1/4 of their damage. At this point each of those weapons does less then 100 DPS, while other weapons do about 500-600.

I am using all science weapons perks I could. I don't think adding VIcar to the party would do much.

Anyone found a way to make them work? 

[Duskmare]

Oh, actually just put a similar post in the spoiler discussion section. 

I've found them pretty useless too. Best one I could find was the mind control gun, but even that had issues. Like it had to be fired continuously to keep control of an enemy so you'd usually end up killing them before they could fight their allies or their allies would be free to attack you while you held it on one particular enemy. 

[Devilangel58]

7 hours ago, Duskmare said:

Oh, actually just put a similar post in the spoiler discussion section. 

I believe I made a post about this on your thread actually.

 

Short story: I found them quite fun and enjoyable.

They aren't meant to deal tons of damage, but provide unique combat experience.

Overall, I found using the shrink ray on 1 tough enemy lets it be shredded by companions in seconds, saving deaths and reloads on supernova.

Hammer is just fun to use, I have that one over 100DPS, so I'm not sure what level you hammer is at, but sounds pretty weak at this point. It's fun to use and kills enemies using different damage types, I am not able to see by how much damage I do each struck - but in general TTD 2 Hammer (plus being knockdown) makes it a useful tool. Though, 2-handed is focused on high damage rather than DPS.

Goop gun is only good indoors for crowd control, hitting multiple enemies. 

Rearranger had saved me from time to time, stunning certain enemies rendering them useless which allows my team to melt other enemies off while I wale on the frozen enemy. Or focus fire to kill it quicker.

Mind control (Didn't use it yet) seems useful when you first strike a stronger enemy (ranged preferred) to allow it to damage its allies. Focus fire on him to kill him since he isn't fighting you, then target the next, and so on. You don't want them fighting for you, just not against you. If melee enemies are running at you, have companions make swift work of them and mind control ranged dangerous units (especially flamethrower enemies, too deadly up close).

 

It's target prioritization. I have 4/5 science weapons, respec to 100 science just for tinkering. Didn't realize how much help I'd get for the science weapons though, oops. If you are solo, then the rearranger may be the best of the science weapons to use, again for the freeze. The Hammer if you want high damage plus TTD knockdown (with certain perks, this can outdo the rearranger easy). Do not bother with any of the others if solo. They will only hinder you.

When with companions, just have fun with it. Upgrade companion weapons to be highest level as possible, strongest tier weapon as possible, and let loose.

[kris84]

Devilangel58 has a point here. Science weapon aint about damage. Some of you have misunderstood the developers thoughts about science weapon.

This game is about having fun not about reaching high dps-numbers.

[Achilles]

9 hours ago, kris84 said:

Devilangel58 has a point here. Science weapon aint about damage. Some of you have misunderstood the developers thoughts about science weapon.

This game is about having fun not about reaching high dps-numbers.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having gimmick weapons for people who want to have fun with the game. I think it's immediately unclear to a lot of players that they are intended to be gimmick weapons though.

[Wormerine]

1 hour ago, Achilles said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with having gimmick weapons for people who want to have fun with the game. I think it's immediately unclear to a lot of players that they are intended to be gimmick weapons though.

But balance seems to be way off... or at least require a very deep and specific skill replacement before being anywhere near viable. I will report back in two lvlups time, once I reach science of 100, but right now it costs too much to increase lvl by tinkering, and damage difference is staggering. They are simply not viable, in spite of me investing in them via tinkering, having base science of 80, Vicar for passive boost and all the perks avaiable. I can shrink creatures for 40 damage, or shoot them for 700-1000. Even weapons I am not specialised with do way more damage then any of my sience weapons. It's not about being not being optimal, it's about being viable. Pretending, like I am contributing to the fight isn't fun.

I was just wondering if I was missing anything mechanic wise. It doesn't seem like I do. 

[DozingDragon]

With Science 100, the cost for Tinkering science weapons caps at 200 bits per level, so it ends up being very cheap to have all five weapons at max level.

The Shrink Ray has very low base damage, but the shrinking effect causes enemies to take substantially more damage, and with Pistols maxed out, Science maxed out, the Science Weapon Perks, and Vicar Max’s perk, you will be able to crit against Shrunken Enemies for tons of damage without really needing to aim at all. While needing to continuously fire the Shrink Ray felt weird at first, you never really need to reload, and the beam has a huge amount of range and hitscan.

[drithius]

Goop Gun was amazing for the final boss.  I don't think any of them are really meant to be amazing to the point of being overpowered (aside from hammer which needs a nerf); they're mostly about flavor.

[GhostofAnakin]

I haven't found much use in them so far.  They're just taking up space in my inventory right now.  Maybe I don't have enough skill points in the proper skill to make full use of them?

[stiven]

On 11/1/2019 at 2:44 AM, Wormerine said:

My original plan was to build character around using science weapons - I always like those unique weapons.

However, so far they seem extremely unvaible. 

You need to get to level 80 of science to cap tinkering with those weapons so you can actually upgrade them (didn't reach that point). I imagine 100 would be desirable to not spend a fortune on those weapons (depending on what the cap is). 

Even when I got my first weapon and it's level was around my other equipment but did 1/4 of their damage. At this point each of those weapons does less then 100 DPS, while other weapons do about 500-600.

I am using all science weapons perks I could. I don't think adding VIcar to the party would do much.

Anyone found a way to make them work? 

I dunno about other weapons, but in my current playthrough, science hammer (with 100 science and two perks, lvl 15), the very first "science" weapon you get, -  is doing considerable more damage with it "charging  up" attack than any other currently available weapon. And you also can keep on upgrading it, up to level 35. Because with 80 science price for upgrade is capped for "sicence" weapons. So it's not totally useless. Even so, if you consider time/money spend on modding and tinkering regular weapon, only to discard it later, when better version of the same weapon becomes available. On which you can then again waste even more money and time to mod it and tinker with it.

[Achilles]

19 hours ago, Wormerine said:

But balance seems to be way off... or at least require a very deep and specific skill replacement before being anywhere near viable. I will report back in two lvlups time, once I reach science of 100, but right now it costs too much to increase lvl by tinkering, and damage difference is staggering. They are simply not viable, in spite of me investing in them via tinkering, having base science of 80, Vicar for passive boost and all the perks avaiable. I can shrink creatures for 40 damage, or shoot them for 700-1000. Even weapons I am not specialised with do way more damage then any of my sience weapons. It's not about being not being optimal, it's about being viable. Pretending, like I am contributing to the fight isn't fun.

I was just wondering if I was missing anything mechanic wise. It doesn't seem like I do. 

FWIW, I'm running around with a fully upgraded shrink ray and it's basically a cheat weapon. Maybe that will change against end-game enemies, but as it stands right now, I was wrong.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Achilles

[Wormerine]

Alright. I concur. I finally reached science of 100 and upgraded all those toys as much as I can. They are ripping through stuff quite nicely. so they are fine, it’s takes a lot of science before they are viable. 
 

cant say anything specific about balance now. Things are a bit too easy to really judge balance. 
 

I wish item description would say what special effects do. I assume shrinking reduces enemy damage? But by how much? Does it do anything else?

[DozingDragon]

Shrinking reduces enemy damage and it also increases the amount of damage enemies take. In practice, the increased damage seems to be enough to almost counteract the extra plasma armor mantisaurs have.

[Achilles]

4 hours ago, Wormerine said:

Alright. I concur. I finally reached science of 100 and upgraded all those toys as much as I can. They are ripping through stuff quite nicely. so they are fine, it’s takes a lot of science before they are viable. 
 

cant say anything specific about balance now. Things are a bit too easy to really judge balance. 
 

I wish item description would say what special effects do. I assume shrinking reduces enemy damage? But by how much? Does it do anything else?

Yeah, it doesn't give a hard stat, but trust me when I say it's OP. I was killing "Mega" creatures in seconds and human are almost insta-kill (Science = 100, tinkered to level 35)

[ABearIsHere]

I think Science weapons are generally pretty fun but the fact that they are positioned as "reward weapons" jars with the fact that their effects are mostly gimmicks/status effects and they require a heavy Science investment to work effectively.

 

In New Vegas, the uniques generally were just... very good weapons that would compliment a build that was built to use the base version of the weapon generally quite well. Technically there are uniques in The Outer Worlds too but, not having looked at the stats in depth, they just... don't seem like a huge upgrade to me, especially considering that you often find them while you already have a Tinkered weapon that can deal more DPS by default.

I feel like this is all part of an itemization system that needed some more fine-tuning, to be honest, there are a lot of good ideas in The Outer Worlds concerning character progression, build variety and combat flow, but it's also kind of a victim of being a smaller game that didn't perhaps have the iteration time it needed to nail really rewarding balance. I dunno how Private Division and the team will approach patching compared to the Pillars of Eternity, but I hope to see a bunch of tuning in the future, concerning both items and perks.

Was a very fun little game, though.

Edited November 4, 2019 by ABearIsHere

[thelee]

I'm just surprised you people are talking about science weapons being gimmicky or underpowered when mind control ray is unbelievably unbalanced (haven't actually tried it against automechanicals, but everyone else it works). Insta control an enemy (pick the hardest one), and even if there's no one around to fight it or for it to fight, your companions will just unleash upon it while it just stands there mind controlled. All this with a science skill of 30.

[DozingDragon]

Oh yeah, the effects from all the science weapons without any significant investment are great by themselves. Hopefully there might be some more added later on.

[Devilangel58]

As some others said, science weapons are actually quite powerful. Ever since I got the shrink ray, I've been slowly having my character focus on science weapons. Much like how I used my Fallout 4 character to focus on radiation weapons.

Except here, it's a deadlier build - ironically.

 

Do your science build! You'll be surprised what comes from it.

[Kapten Teo]

You're supposed to use them more strategically, as support weapons.  Quoting Devilangel58's post for truth.

 

On 11/1/2019 at 9:59 AM, Devilangel58 said:

I believe I made a post about this on your thread actually.

 

Short story: I found them quite fun and enjoyable.

They aren't meant to deal tons of damage, but provide unique combat experience.

Overall, I found using the shrink ray on 1 tough enemy lets it be shredded by companions in seconds, saving deaths and reloads on supernova.

Hammer is just fun to use, I have that one over 100DPS, so I'm not sure what level you hammer is at, but sounds pretty weak at this point. It's fun to use and kills enemies using different damage types, I am not able to see by how much damage I do each struck - but in general TTD 2 Hammer (plus being knockdown) makes it a useful tool. Though, 2-handed is focused on high damage rather than DPS.

Goop gun is only good indoors for crowd control, hitting multiple enemies. 

Rearranger had saved me from time to time, stunning certain enemies rendering them useless which allows my team to melt other enemies off while I wale on the frozen enemy. Or focus fire to kill it quicker.

Mind control (Didn't use it yet) seems useful when you first strike a stronger enemy (ranged preferred) to allow it to damage its allies. Focus fire on him to kill him since he isn't fighting you, then target the next, and so on. You don't want them fighting for you, just not against you. If melee enemies are running at you, have companions make swift work of them and mind control ranged dangerous units (especially flamethrower enemies, too deadly up close).

 

It's target prioritization. I have 4/5 science weapons, respec to 100 science just for tinkering. Didn't realize how much help I'd get for the science weapons though, oops. If you are solo, then the rearranger may be the best of the science weapons to use, again for the freeze. The Hammer if you want high damage plus TTD knockdown (with certain perks, this can outdo the rearranger easy). Do not bother with any of the others if solo. They will only hinder you.

When with companions, just have fun with it. Upgrade companion weapons to be highest level as possible, strongest tier weapon as possible, and let loose.

 

[ABearIsHere]

Yeah, Mind Control is pretty powerful, I will say, but the first weapon you get for example, the Shrink Ray, really only works as support weapon and doesn't last very long if you don't invest in science. Giving it to Vicar Max, it seemed to like it worked better than if I were using it with my character (until I leveled Science up significantly anyway), plus it was far easier to handle when it was the companion that bothered to target the enemy and not me. I don't personally see what's so amazing about the Mandibular Rearranger and the Prismatic Hammer, while the Gloop Gun is fun but didn't feel to me like it felt particularly more powerful than any other effect that paralyzes or temporarily staggers an enemy, especially considering the Mind Control gun makes the enemy you target similarly non-threatening while also providing far more advantageous effects.

 

I do like the idea a lot though, and I generally feel stuff like the N-Ray effects are where the creativity in the combat system shines.

[Ommamar]

I just got the Hammer for a two hand barbarian type build (mostly means I just hit stuff as a strategy).  Took the science perk and tinkered so it is 5 levels above my current level, it a ton of fun to swing around doing the different effects.  At the current level it seems very powerful compared to any other weapon I can find, I don't need to worry about having a plasma, electric, corrosion weapon as I can just swing the hammer again to get the different effects.

[Sanctuary]

The hammer is the most powerful (per hit) weapon in the entire game.  It's also odd that some are saying it doesn't have a high DPS when it still has the highest DPS in the game.  11K damage or higher per swing divided by the time it took per swing and to get to enemies is still more than anything else in the game.  You should be using the hammer's power attack, not doing the normal swings if you want to see its real damage potential.

That being said, it's also overkill and not the most efficient way to mop up the screen.  The mind control gun is simply OK, but it's better on a companion than the player due to targeting issues, and similarly with the shrink ray.  The companions tend to lock on to moving targets, and don't miss.

The real reason to raise Science is not for the Science weapons though.  It's a) plasma and corrosion damage and b) drastically reducing Tinkering costs.  Any weapon converted to plasma or corrosion will deal even more damage with an investment into Science than in its kinetic form.  By default, the plasma rifle is one of the most powerful weapons in the entire game.  Also, putting 60 into Inspiration and bringing Sam and Max along for their passive buffs to Science will make you do even more damage.  More than grabbing Lone Wolf...

[thelee]

16 hours ago, Sanctuary said:

The hammer is the most powerful (per hit) weapon in the entire game.  It's also odd that some are saying it doesn't have a high DPS when it still has the highest DPS in the game. 

i think it's because most (all?) science weapons have an extremely low item level, and people haven't really figured out tinker.

hell, i'm about to finish my first run through and it took me like half the game to figure out what exactly "tinker" really did (it was just a tab on the workbench menu i kept passing over).

[uuuhhii]

the hammer are ridiculously powerful in mid and late game

but range science weapon maybe interesting but not convenient enough

really need a sniper or shotgun style science weapon

[Wormerine]

On 11/6/2019 at 4:41 PM, thelee said:

i think it's because most (all?) science weapons have an extremely low item level, and people haven't really figured out tinker.

To me the bigger roadblock that tinkering through multiple levels isn't viable until you reach 80 and then 100 science. I didn't "rush" science, therefore at the time of writing OP they were heavily behind other weapons. 

Indeed, they did become viable, though after a bit of fooling around with them, I came back to basic weapons. One shooting enemies with plasma rifles is simply quicker. The shocking granade thingy was useful in the end game fight though.