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BillyCorgan

Obsidian, i love your game but ... I'm not stupid !

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I have 12 hours of play for now, I enjoy every moment, but seriously Obsidian ... I'm not 6 years old!
I do not want to see a hole in a fence just after a closed gate, a code on the table next to the locked PC etc etc ...

And what about that:

screenshot-316.png

Hmmm I hesitate ... is it a staircase or boxes? I doubt...

Honestly, the game is great and I love the work done, but sometimes I feel like you think I'm an idiot ... and it's a shame.

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6 hours ago, BillyCorgan said:

I have 12 hours of play for now, I enjoy every moment, but seriously Obsidian ... I'm not 6 years old!
I do not want to see a hole in a fence just after a closed gate, a code on the table next to the locked PC etc etc ...

And what about that:

screenshot-316.png

Hmmm I hesitate ... is it a staircase or boxes? I doubt...

Honestly, the game is great and I love the work done, but sometimes I feel like you think I'm an idiot ... and it's a shame.

The whole game feels like that. From Skills to "secrets" it's a dumbed down streamlined "RPG"

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1 minute ago, imitenotbecrazy said:

The whole game feels like that. From Skills to "secrets" it's a dumbed down streamlined "RPG"

dumbed down and streamlined compared to what exactly? 

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1 minute ago, Wormerine said:

dumbed down and streamlined compared to what exactly? 

Any RPG with assignable skill points? Obsidians use of "skill groups" to 50 is incredibly streamlined and handicaps players that want to play a more diverse character. The three times I've tried to create and play a vastly different character, it all ends up feeling and acting the same. Conversational skill checks are insanely easy as are lock picks and hacking. The skill system is half meaningless, as is the different gear. Pick what armor looks good and don't worry about the rest because it has little actual bearing on gameplay

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It's true of everything in life: The more money behind it, the fewer risks are taken with it.  The bottom line of 4 companies is effected by this game release, so it's been made as safe as possible to ensure maximum cash return.

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8 hours ago, BillyCorgan said:

And what about that:

screenshot-316.png

Hmmm I hesitate ... is it a staircase or boxes? I doubt...

Honestly, the game is great and I love the work done, but sometimes I feel like you think I'm an idiot ... and it's a shame.

Well, sure they think you are an idiot, why wouldn't they?

(j/k--I couldn't resist...;))

 

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It's very well known that I don't make mistakes, so if you should stumble across the odd error here and there in what I have written, you may immediately deduce--quite correctly--that I did not write it... :biggrin:

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4 hours ago, imitenotbecrazy said:

Any RPG with assignable skill points? Obsidians use of "skill groups" to 50 is incredibly streamlined and handicaps players that want to play a more diverse character. The three times I've tried to create and play a vastly different character, it all ends up feeling and acting the same. Conversational skill checks are insanely easy as are lock picks and hacking. The skill system is half meaningless, as is the different gear. Pick what armor looks good and don't worry about the rest because it has little actual bearing on gameplay

So compared to what? Fallout1/2? That's true, it's not this type of RPG. It's closer to what Bioware used to do starting with Baldur's Gate and going to KOTOR, DA, ME. All characters do combat, utility skills may unlock extra paths but dont' provide wholy unique experiences. 

If that's what you were expecting I can understand your disappointment. I don't think it is really up to skill design per say, but quest and world design doesn't support unique interactions depending on your skills. 

I for one think that the group leveling up is smart thing - It's a gradual specialisation. First you pick attributes, which will mostly define your character and their most useful skills, then you level up groups based on what you wanted to use, and then after trying out different weapons and skills, you can specialise in latter half of leveling.

That said if they do the sequel I would prefer for them to deepen the system and level design, rather then just produce more of it in pure quantity. 

Edited by Wormerine

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4 hours ago, deadsanta said:

The bottom line of 4 companies is effected by this game release, so it's been made as safe as possible to ensure maximum cash return.

1. Obsidian

2. Privite Division (aka. 2K)

3.??? 

4.???

PS. Before you answer what those other two are, think about dates and nature related business decisions and think how could influence Outer Worlds. 

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"The three times I've tried to create and play a vastly different character, it all ends up feeling and acting the same. Conversational skill checks are insanely easy as are lock picks and hacking."

Um...no? I've ran into multiple hacking, lockpicking, and conversational checks that were 70+. A few that were 100.

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The jokes are easy and you're right.

On the other hand I allowed myself this remark because I love Obsidian and their games. It's the same for TOW!
So I'm a little disappointed when I see the repetition of this kind of
staging... (not just the crate stairs, but also the holes in the fences next to a closed door, etc etc).

For me, it tends to get me out of the game these details. It precisely looks so like a video game . That's all.

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On 10/30/2019 at 9:15 AM, imitenotbecrazy said:

Any RPG with assignable skill points? Obsidians use of "skill groups" to 50 is incredibly streamlined and handicaps players that want to play a more diverse character. The three times I've tried to create and play a vastly different character, it all ends up feeling and acting the same. Conversational skill checks are insanely easy as are lock picks and hacking. The skill system is half meaningless, as is the different gear. Pick what armor looks good and don't worry about the rest because it has little actual bearing on gameplay

Someone needs to get further in the game.  At the beginning the skill checks are really low and easy.  However, later on there are lots of locks and hacks I've been locked out of due to only having 50-60 skill points.  Once you get to 50 you really do have to specialize .  I will say that science/engineering/the other one are a waste of points so far.  Would be nice if they were more common.  I feel like people tend to compare this to "other games" without actually giving examples of games that do it better.   

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You are right there, I know what you mean.  It's like when you play a batman game, and you look at the map and ask yourself "brainstorm time, how am I gonna enter this buidling, there are so many different options" and then you realize, you will enter it the same way you did for 99% of the places you visit, through a ventilation conduct. In all 3 games.

 

When I think about all the rpgs I've played in the past 20 years, they were all so much better, they didn't have any hidden place to find. Most rpgs give you only one road to reach your objective, and all players make the same travels and road all around the game. In TOW, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of players who missed a lot of areas, with secrets, informations and loot. 

Moreover, I think it totally fits the universe and its general tone.

 

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30 minutes ago, Theonlygarby said:

Someone needs to get further in the game.  At the beginning the skill checks are really low and easy.  However, later on there are lots of locks and hacks I've been locked out of due to only having 50-60 skill points.  Once you get to 50 you really do have to specialize .  I will say that science/engineering/the other one are a waste of points so far.  Would be nice if they were more common.  I feel like people tend to compare this to "other games" without actually giving examples of games that do it better.   

Completely disagree and I've probably got one of the higher amount of hours into the game on this forum (working from home and not being busy helps). I've been messing around with multiple playthroughs and they're all feeling the same. Others have echoed that same complaint. If you need a comparison, why not their own game, New Vegas? You could assign points to individual skills based on how you wanted your character to progress. Right now, I'm forced to level skills I don't want up to 50 due to this stupid skill group bull****. It's a terribly basic system and I'm shocked people think that's a good RPG mechanic. 

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8 minutes ago, imitenotbecrazy said:

Completely disagree and I've probably got one of the higher amount of hours into the game on this forum (working from home and not being busy helps). I've been messing around with multiple playthroughs and they're all feeling the same. Others have echoed that same complaint. If you need a comparison, why not their own game, New Vegas? You could assign points to individual skills based on how you wanted your character to progress. Right now, I'm forced to level skills I don't want up to 50 due to this stupid skill group bull****. It's a terribly basic system and I'm shocked people think that's a good RPG mechanic. 

Really?  By having maxed out intelligence in New Vegas I found I could pretty much be amazing at everything.  I will agree though that people are giving this game a lot of love(more than I thought they would).  Most likely because people are starving for a decent choice driven FPS RPG.  I mean... What games in the last 5-10 years have even tried?  I can't think of many.

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23 minutes ago, imitenotbecrazy said:

Completely disagree and I've probably got one of the higher amount of hours into the game on this forum (working from home and not being busy helps). I've been messing around with multiple playthroughs and they're all feeling the same. Others have echoed that same complaint. If you need a comparison, why not their own game, New Vegas? You could assign points to individual skills based on how you wanted your character to progress. Right now, I'm forced to level skills I don't want up to 50 due to this stupid skill group bull****. It's a terribly basic system and I'm shocked people think that's a good RPG mechanic. 

You actually don't have to up skills you don't want to 50, you have to up the group to 50, but I've made characters that are genuinely bad at things who have 35 points in one group skill and 25 points in another, while the group hit 50. From there I -could- continue to level the group for the remaining 2, or focus on the 50.

It makes a bit of sense, except Hacking being a stealth skill which is a little silly, but they didn't want 4 skills in one and 2 in another so I get why it's like that. If you're a good liar you're probably going to be good at pretending to plead, so why not actually plead with or even threaten people? Even if it's not your preferred method of operating. If you're good with science generally you're probably able to comprehend the human body as a machine operating on hydraulics, even if your primary expertise is in engineering. If you're good at taking a hit, you're probably aware that hits you don't take are good for you. If you're good at swinging a baseball bat, you can probably manage a billy club without injuring yourself.

All of it makes sense, what makes less sense honestly is the idea that I could be the world's greatest liar but I can't convince people of the truth, I could be the world's foremost fencer but if you gave me a greatsword my brain would turn to goo and drip out of my ear. That's common in RPGs, but it's damned silly, and I like the way the skills are handled in The Outer Worlds.

With that said, I would have preferred the ability to pick from two perks (not a forking path necessarily, which would have required 8 skills for 100) for 60/80/100 so you could customize your character in a more robust fashion.

Edited by Clawdius_Talonious

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5 minutes ago, Clawdius_Talonious said:

All of it makes sense, what makes less sense honestly is the idea that I could be the world's greatest liar but I can't convince people of the truth, I could be the world's foremost fencer but if you gave me a greatsword my brain would turn to goo and drip out of my ear. That's common in RPGs, but it's damned silly, and I like the way the skills are handled in The Outer Worlds.

Your examples here are actually incredibly realistic and human. Most people either have a hard time convincing someone of a lie, or the truth. And a world class fencer would be capable but not overly qualified with a greatsword. Connor McGregor showed us something similar a couple years ago. Specialisation is termed that for a reason. 

 

And you're partly right about not having to level the skills you don't want up to 50, but if you want to raise the skill you want above 50, all the other skills in that group have to be 50 first. Again, broadstroking your character into a generic one. 

 

If you want to raise hacking over 50, Sneak must reach 50 before you can take Hacking any higher. I would have loved to get some Dodge perks in there but have no use for Block. Likewise with Heavy Guns. The game is just forcing me to level skills I don't want in order to make a character I do want. 

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12 minutes ago, imitenotbecrazy said:

If you want to raise hacking over 50, Sneak must reach 50 before you can take Hacking any higher. I would have loved to get some Dodge perks in there but have no use for Block. Likewise with Heavy Guns. The game is just forcing me to level skills I don't want in order to make a character I do want. 

Do I... have to post an image of my skill tree? Okay. You're mistaken, it happens.

 

skills.jpg

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21 minutes ago, Clawdius_Talonious said:

Do I... have to post an image of my skill tree? Okay. You're mistaken, it happens.

 

skills.jpg

Poor wording on my part. You must still raise the whole group at once until the skill you want to raise above 50, hits 50. So if you rolled a 22 in Hacking and 30 in Sneak, you are still levelling sneak to 50 if you want to raise your hacking passed 50. 

 

You still had to raise Lie and Intimidate to 40 for Persuade to hit 50. That's the issue I have. Right now I have a 0 in block and 10 in Dodge, if I want to raise Dodge to 50, I'm raising block to 40 as well. Neither really have anything to do with each other besides being "defense". Really, one would be agility the other strength 

Edited by imitenotbecrazy

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Just now, imitenotbecrazy said:

Poor wording on my part. You must still raise the whole group at once until the skill you want to raise above 50, hits 50. So if you rolled a 22 in Hacking and 30 in Sneak, you are still levelling sneak to 50 if you want to raise your hacking passed 50. 

Ahhhh, well, yes for the subset of skills you want to be good at and are middling at. It still makes sense though, if you're naturally great with sciences, but want to be an engineer you might do really well at Medicine but you're really after that Engineering. You get told repeatedly that your handwriting is illegible, so you must be a doctor or lawyer "when you grow up" and yet you want to pump liquids and air into frakking systems and pneumatic drives, you live for the day your robot can move about by itself. To hell with medicine, I want advanced knowledge of Engineering. So, despite having 100s in biology and similar sciences you have to work for your engineering degree, it takes effort and you sometimes make poor grades.

All of it, to me, seems pretty realistic and human. YMMV.

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1 minute ago, Clawdius_Talonious said:

Ahhhh, well, yes for the subset of skills you want to be good at and are middling at. It still makes sense though, if you're naturally great with sciences, but want to be an engineer you might do really well at Medicine but you're really after that Engineering. You get told repeatedly that your handwriting is illegible, so you must be a doctor or lawyer "when you grow up" and yet you want to pump liquids and air into frakking systems and pneumatic drives, you live for the day your robot can move about by itself. To hell with medicine, I want advanced knowledge of Engineering. So, despite having 100s in biology and similar sciences you have to work for your engineering degree, it takes effort and you sometimes make poor grades.

All of it, to me, seems pretty realistic and human. YMMV.

I mean, hey, if it works for you that's great. It's extremely poor and lazy to me. Half of it doesn't make sense in any realistic world. Most professions and skill sets aren't generic enough to cross industries. 

The skill groups will be one of the first things I mod when the opportunity arises. I'd prefer much more control over my character. So far, they've all felt the same 

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