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First of all, I've never liked any of the Fallout games. To me, they're all bad, period. And it makes me seriously mad that people think that every CRPG fan has to like Fallout. Hey, I owe you nothing! I am a huge CRPG fan and yet I hate Fallout and I have every right to hate whatever I hate.

This being said, I'm also a firm believer in the "live and let live" motto. So I would never come here with this rant if the Fallout fanboys weren't so damn obnoxious and irritating. It's always the same story: on any forum where CRPGs are discussed in every thread there's always a Fallout fanboy explaining you how your favorite game is bad just because it's not exactly like their beloved Fallout.

Twenty years. Twenty freaking years. And now I come here to the TOW forums and what do I see at the top of the general discussion? Of course, it's a thread on how TOW is bad because it's not exactly like Fallout.

/sigh

Dear Obsidian, do you want some feedback on what your forums need? Well, here's mine: we need the "add all Fallout fanboys to ignore list" button. It's way too annoying to block them all one by one.

Edited by prodigydancer
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Well, if longest thread in TOW's general discussion, and like only thread with more than a couple of pages, really, is devoted to rants about how game does not measures up to her predecessors and parts of it that suck (not only comparing to Fallouts), it tells a LOT about quality of the game, methinks.

 

And second! most active thread on the same forum has more people discussing Disco Elysium than TOW.

Edited by Daidre
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30 minutes ago, Daidre said:

Well, if longest thread in TOW's general discussion, and like only thread with more than a couple of pages, really, is devoted to rants about how game does not measures up to her predecessors and parts of it that suck (not only comparing to Fallouts), it tells a LOT about quality of the game, methinks.

And second! most active thread on the same forum has more people discussing Disco Elysium than TOW.

Or it just tells you that divisive/controversial topics cause longer discussions. This is only so long because a lot of people *disagree* with the OP and the few others who have expressed disappointment, same as the only reason we're discussing Disco Elysium is because a couple of users expressed their disappointment with that and refuted its legitimacy as an RPG. By the same coin, you could say that conversation says a lot about Disco Elysium. It doesn't, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg

Currently playing: Fallout 2

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1 hour ago, prodigydancer said:

So I would never come here with this rant if the Fallout fanboys weren't so damn obnoxious and irritating. It's always the same story: on any forum where CRPGs are discussed in every thread there's always a Fallout fanboy explaining you how your favorite game is bad just because it's not exactly like their beloved Fallout.

Well, considering Outer Worlds is Fallout in space, comparing the two isn't a silly things to do. OW is exactly a budget, less mechanicaly and content rich but more stable Fallout: New Vegas. [shrug]

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On 10/28/2019 at 2:43 AM, Daidre said:

I played TOW for a couple of hours and just could not force myself to proceed. I never touched Fallout 3-4, but TOW has the worst writing I have seen in Obsidian game ever. Not technically bad, but utterly mediocre and hopelessly tryhard in its attempts to be snarky and funny in every sentence (and always fails). 

It is so meh so soon after brilliant Disco Elysium.

I never thought I'd see the day when Spiders (Greedfall) would make more enjoyable game than Obsidian.

 

I had been playing Disco Elysium, which was not the best idea... controlling a brokenhearthed drunkard when i did was (and probably still I am) one of those brought me over the painful memories. Disco Elysium writting is closer to Bioware's than to obsidian's, it's Assimovian instead of ShuTakumiesque. In Disco Elysium you start with a defined character that you lead (like in Bioware's games) not with a white sheet that you can craft the background as you wish.

And something tells me you had neither played fallout brotherhood of steel (non cannon console version) because that one is even more TRYHARD than TOW

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When I'm playing TOW I get Fallout 4 vibes sometimes, its kind of pacey as a game, just like Fallout, its not just action all the time

But I think TOW has a vibe of its own, the alien landscape and wildlife give to the game a very distinct and unique feeling

Also the world and writing in general is very different to the new fallout's. I can see some similarities with Fallout 1 though

In no way its a mediocre game, it is just made on a more humble budget, I'm sure all game developers wish had the money (and herefore time) Bethesda has for making their games

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 I played Disco awhile before ToW came out, can't say I empathise with people's desire to mention it in same discourse surrounding ToW.  Maybe it says something about how desperate people are to validate their petty agendas; we may as well be pointing towards great books now by virtue of text density and using them as a sort of pulpit to demerit any attempts at differentiating subgenre.  It's a textbased narrative CRPG and it's somewhat rigid in it's story and 'play dress up' progression based rolls - it tells an excellent story though and is quite unique.  I have criticisms for it personally, I may prefer Planescape (barring combat) as well but that's neither here or there.  I sit down to play something like that passively and to be absorbed in a way, that first playthrough especially in Disco's case.

ToW is classic player/character first person ARPG, where every skill has a distinct curve and function and each of your choices must be rewarded relative to investment.  It consistently accommodates a wide range of character types by opening up unique opportunities and giving the player clear choices.  I think for what it is, it's [redacted] brilliant, even if like anything it could be bigger and better.  I love it all though.. every skill, the great perks, characterised attributes, the leaner character derived loot system, leashed mobs, equal support of generalists and specialists, the level design(skill based, not arena shooting), the dialogue, the characters, the art....I could go on. 

It seems too, like a lot of the internal logic that went into faction and quest progression was clearly designed with the same level of comprehension that was behind New Vegas even if it's deftly muted in the interest of presentation.  ToW to me, is a masterstroke for the argument that less is more in having a no frills highly reactive handcrafted adventure.  I do hope we get DLC, that's more narrative focused though with less emphasis on dungeons, has longer quests and that has more task based skill checks like the work order in Amber Heights.

I'll get back to my nth playthrough of jsawyerNV eventually but I've been happily distracted by ToW since it's release and continue to replay it aggressively.

Edited by Fisto
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I don't think there's much to be gained by directly comparing DE and TOW, they are very different from one another.

BUT, as someone who also played DE just before TOW, it was pretty hard for me to shake the feeling of having just played something that felt bold, fresh, wild and extremely ambitious, flaws and all (and I could list many),  and then going into TOW which is pretty much anything but as far as I'm concerned. I've been been a big fan of Obsidian in the past, even through projects that some considered to be downright bad, and I've always managed to squeeze enjoyment out of them (well, except for stuff like Armored Warfare and Pathfinder maybe, which I didn't play) and look forward to the next project.

But TOW is the first game by them where I just felt like the whole experience was too lukewarm, too "safe," too... boring. It just didn't move me in any way whatsoever, the whole thing felt very "meh" to me despite there being flashes of brilliance in there such as solutions to quests, good reactivity, stuff that I usually eat up with delight. It's the first Obsidian game where I could not wait for the NPCs to finish talking (and that's coming from someone who usually loves dialogue and always play dialogue-centric characters), but then it only meant that I was back to an incredibly uninspired loot system and very boring combat encounters instead. I just could not bring myself to care about anything in the game, it never pulled me in at all. And again, if we bring up DE, it was a game that I just could not put down, despite its many flaws.

I don't know, it's not my jam at all obviously and that's fine. I'm glad there are others who enjoy it. But I was pretty surprised by my reaction to it because I was looking forward to the game quite a bit.

Edited by Starwars
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I haven't finished the game yet (I'm probably halfway in) but unfortunately, I'm not enjoying TOW as much as I hoped/expected. I saw one review calling it "fun but shallow" and it really hits the mark IMO. No issue with the story, the setting or the writing (the latter being ok), I'm actually more disappointed with the RPG elements (perks especially) and the rather bland enemies and combat... The locations and the quests are also nothing to brag about, all of them being rather safe.

To be clear, I have no issue with a shorter, more focused game in terms of story and setting, but I would have hoped that the RPG mechanics would be a bit deeper... The available perks are especially boring.

I put the game on pause hoping for a balance patch or DLC. Maybe I'll will have to wait for TOW 2 for something a little more substantive. Or POE 3 ;)

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TOW is a slow burner given the starter location in Edgewater IMO.

By the time you get to Sanjar/MSI and the Chairman's obsequious, Prima Donna exec at Byzantium (and especially the Adjutant), that's where Obsidian's dialogue and NPC character development really begins to shine.

So TOW game play is mediocre? Well folks that claim this (ESPECIALLY if the words "Fallout game" follows TOW immediately afterwards) either never played an Obsidian game, or are too vested in mindless pew pew FPS style game play. Or are too brain washed and conditioned by a certain AAA dev who took the intellectual property of a franchise (which they lacked the innovative capital to conceive) and transformed it into a mindless, linear, and completely superficial FPS RPG.   Same AAA dev who hides the lack of meaningful RP game play behind higher replay value open world sandbox mechanics.  Same AAA dev who has historically depended on the goodwill of the PC modding community to constantly improve their games for FREE and extend the shelf life of their shallow RP games. To the point where said dev  has finally found a way to exploit, monetize and monopolize the distribution of once FREE & professionally superior modded content provided by the PC community. Then make a profit by acting as middle man peddling fan base made content locked behind outrageously expensive paywalls. Profiting off the free/cheaply acquired PC community intellectual property to the vast mod deficient console player base.   

Same dev/publisher that was too lazy to come up with their own original way of crafting/building loop in FO4. Which btw, replaced the deep RP/choice game play that formerly existed in FO1, FO2 and New Vegas. Same dev which decided to permanently borrow the crafting/settlement build mechanic in a superior PC mod called Real Time Settler mod for New Vegas.  Same dev/publisher that even resorted to STEALING proprietary intellectual capital. Like Autumn Leaves (a New Vegas mod) that somehow was magically teleported into FO4's Far Harbor DLC. Like an exact cut and paste copy of high popular Wizards of the Coast quest line.  And then said dev blatantly trying to illegally profit off said theft. Shamelessly trying to pass said stolen content off as original DLC in one of their online game franchises....

So TOW is mediocre? Well perhaps the assessment of others is true. That the OP may be a bitter Bethesda shill? Who turned a blind eye to all of Bethesda's professional, ethical and morally grey faults as a AAA dev in the past. But can no longer ignore personal disillusionment with Bethesda's shenanigans with F76 to date.  And so perhaps don't care to see Obsidian succeed where Bethesda has failed? Perhaps OP and others like them either extremely love/hate FO4 and/or that vile dumpster fire called F76? Are salty because they don't want TOW to be perceived as being a superior alternative to what the Fallout franchise has devolved to for both single player and online?

BTW: notice the coincidental timing of Fallout 1st live service with TOW's release date? Now why do you suppose that was?

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1 hour ago, VaultBoi2077 said:

Same AAA dev who has historically depended on the goodwill of the PC modding community to constantly improve their games for FREE and extend the shelf life of their shallow RP games.

So showing middle finger to community, making TOW explicitly unmoddable is better? Beside some tiny .ini editing.

What a logic.

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4 hours ago, Daidre said:

So showing middle finger to community, making TOW explicitly unmoddable is better? Beside some tiny .ini editing.

What a logic.

There is a key difference between actively making a game unmoddable and simply not having the time and resources to develop and release the modding tools. I believe with TOW, Obsidian is in the latter camp. They are in favour of modding, they just couldn't dedicate resources to making it possible.

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Of course:

- They did not have resources to make interesting perks

- They did not have resources to make decent selection of weapons, why should they, it is not FPS

- Since it is not FPS, enemy variety is no longer needed

- 3rd person view is a huuge money

- as a configurable UI that allows to hide/show separate elements

- It is not AAA, so good looking character models, longer hairstyles and at least decent animations is also out of options, let enemies die in the storm of limbs, it is so cool

- And requiring more than 5 different armor models is totally not fair to Obsidian

- Writing that main quest is ridiculously short and shoehorns player into 2 stupid good/bad endings is even less fair

- And do not forget that companion writing is not cheap, so it is completely ok for half of the team to barely have any personality

- Also showing changes in settlements after major decisions is way too much for AA, ending slides will do the work just as well, everyone will still praise them for brilliant C&C

- etc, etc

 

So yes, you could believe that Obsidian had not cut costs at everything you are willing to forgive, and had totally no resources to spare after getting paychecks from PD, Epic Store and Microsoft.

At the same time they did had time and resources to spare on modding support for heavily crowdfunded Deadfire, that still awaits its console release and had not brought millions with exclusivity deal alone. 

 

Edited by Daidre
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