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Amentep

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The irritating thing about US politics is, as  someone mentioned earlier, "whataboutisim". You cannot speak about Trump's wrongs, faults, and flaws without hearing about the Democrats. Everyone is just on the cusp of saying it.... why don't they say it???? 

So I'll do it.:

"Yes the Democrats are f----d up. Yes they are greedy, power hungry, overbearing, would-be-tyrants. Yes they mean to let the ANTIFA and "Democrat" Socialists set push them into power and then ignore them until the next election (thank God for that part). Yes they do hate freedom and the Constitution (except when it benefits them). Yes, they do want to kick down your doors and take things away from you they would never deprive themselves of. Yes they are clueless about economics and only view political power as a path to personal enrichment. None of that makes Trump OK. And yes, he actually did do all the things he's accused of doing. Just calling it a witch hunt does not mean there isn't a witch! And this is the most important part of all... everything I said about the Democrats is equally true about the Republicans!. They still have the gall to call themselves the champions of liberty while handing down laws that put people in prison for life for non-violent offenses. They call themselves the defenders of the 2nd Amd while passing Red Flag laws. Imminent Domain? Civil Asset Forfeiture? Opposing Gay Marriage? None of these are the positions of "defenders of personal liberty". Add to that they are actually defending Trump when they KNOW he's wrong means they haven't a shred of integrity between them. Except people like Justin Amash whom they pointed towards the door. The D & R are all bad. The promise things they cannot, and have no intention of delivering. They are not fighting for you. They do not "care" about you. Hell they don't even like you. The only like money. And both parties will and do sell you out for it. Who is the biggest beneficiary of Obamacare? The "evil" insurance companies! They are selling a product you are now required to buy and other people are forced to help you do it! You see where I'm going here?"

And do you all know WHY that is all true? Because no matter how selfish, divisive, ineffectual, hell downright evil they become 40% of the country is going to fight a different 40% over which one gets the power to do whatever they please. The only way to stop it is to vote 3rd party candidates into office. Break the D&R monopoly. Make elections competitive where the support of the partisan 40% can no longer be taken for granted and the Donkeys and Elephants will clean up their own houses. Those third party candidates don't even need to be good. And IDGAF which party they come from. It's not about them. It's about breaking this two party finger trap we are in. 

OK, rant over.

Edited by Guard Dog
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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Doesn't that sound like something on of Kim Jong Il's minions would say?

it may embarrass gd to hear this, but that is exact what we thought when we first heard the curious statement by ms. grisham.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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1 hour ago, HoonDing said:

It's highly likely Ms Grisham calls Trump 'Daddy'.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I would argue Germany wasnt bombed to end the war, yes Dresden occurred but it was considered a legitimate target in the German war machine

That is bit questionable, considering that allied didn't actually bomb strategic bridges, factories, or even military base just outside of Dresden, instead allies focused on bombing most heavily populated parts of the city.

Also reasoning that Dresden was bombed in order to save US/British soldiers is bit weak as it locates in eastern Germany near current German-Poland border and US and British never had any plans to go there with their ground forces as Soviet Union's forces where already approaching the city and city was full of refugees that had fled Soviet's forces.

Something about questionable nature of bombing of Dresden says this UK's national archive's piece

In February 1945, the last year of World War 2, Britain sent 300 Lancaster bombers to attack the crowded German city of Dresden. This attack was not the precision bombing of specific military targets. It was deliberate bombing of a whole area. The bombs destroyed city buildings and started tremendous fires.

Before long, eleven square miles of Dresden were consumed by a firestorm. The vacuum caused by the rapid rise of hot air created tornadoes that tossed furniture, trees and debris into the air. People were caught in fires as hot as 1000 °C. The city was devastated. No one knows how many thousands died.

The German armies were in retreat at this time and the war was nearly over. Some historians have argued that this attack was not justifiable on military grounds, that it was nothing more than a slaughter of civilians. But others say it helped to shorten the war in Europe.

Ultimate responsibility for this attack lay with the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill. Was the bombing of Dresden a justifiable act during wartime? How closely was Winston Churchill involved in the decision to attack the city? Does this cast a shadow upon Churchill's reputation as the heroic icon of twentieth century British history?

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/heroesvillains/g1/

 

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The soviets did ask for Dresden to be bombed multiple times, so the western allies can at least claim that. Area bombing theory was never a great defence/ reason for targeting civilians though, the Blitz experience in the UK showed that it did very little to break civilian morale, rather the reverse, and that resources were far more efficiently allocated going for military targets.

Funny thing about Churchill is how apart from giving inspirational speeches how awful he was at everything else. His military decisions in WW1 & 2 were both almost universally bad or incompetent, he had dreadful man management, and was an inveterate and unrepentant racist. If there were a moderate and extreme solution to a problem he'd advocate the extreme one 95% of the time. He's incredibly lucky that he ended up as the personification of the British Bulldog Spirit as otherwise he'd be remembered very poorly.

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Re Dresden and WWII and all that: Another thing to consider is that bombs then had rudimentary guidance, if any. About the only guidance used was a sight on the bomber itself and fins on the bomb to stabilize it in flight, which is why carpet bombing was pretty much a necessity. Though it sounds like they missed some actual military targets, though some of the industrial stuff was also in the suburbs.

As elerond mentioned, it was pretty controversial even in it's immediate aftermath.

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1 hour ago, smjjames said:

Re Dresden and WWII and all that: Another thing to consider is that bombs then had rudimentary guidance, if any. About the only guidance used was a sight on the bomber itself and fins on the bomb to stabilize it in flight, which is why carpet bombing was pretty much a necessity. Though it sounds like they missed some actual military targets, though some of the industrial stuff was also in the suburbs.

As elerond mentioned, it was pretty controversial even in it's immediate aftermath.

I suspect Bruce is a bit biased (as in completely), because we're talking about the RAF and England here ;)

 

I think the Americans best summed up their strategic objective, the city was full of factory workers, making it a strategic target. The goal, to kill as many people as possible and reduce the industrial output. Maximizing civilian casualties being the primary goal to accomplish this (the latter paraphrased by me).

 

The English did the same thing in Hamburg (aptly named Operation Gormorra), even refining the technique, the "Firestorm" burning for days.  The aim being to maximize civilian casualties. Between the two raids, estimated casualties varies, ranging from 75000 to twice the number (and that's the dead, countless more injured, maimed, dying later from their burns)

 

Yes. that's from the country who was the first to systematically use concentration camps for ethnic cleansing (trying to systematically wipe out the Boer population)? War is dirty business and being on the winning side is always preferably when history is written.

 

As for Churchill, I haven't watched the movie, but Anzac troops generally doesn't seem to remember Gallipoli favourably.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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@Gorth I was responding to the discussion more broadly though, not just to Bruce. Anyways, slightly surprised you guys didn't take the opportunity to start a new thread during this extended quiet period.

Anyways, *PUNT!* Brexit is now extended to January 31st. Meanwhile, British Parliament is discussing a December election. Won't starting an election trigger another extensuon? I thought there was an automatic extension if there was an election or something.

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2 hours ago, Skarpen said:

If this keeps going it would be easier for every other country to leave EU and form a new union instead of waiting for UK to leave.

Funnily enough and more or less relevant to current events: if the rest of NATO ever seriously wanted to kick Turkey out this is the procedure they'd have to use- everyone else leaves voluntarily and reforms as NATO2 with Turkey not invited. There's no procedure to expel a member.

Not that it would happen anyway.

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1 hour ago, ManifestedISO said:

is it perjury to state you 'don't recall' doing something three witnesses corroborate as being a thing you did ... what defense could Sondland plausibly concoct ...

It's not in any civilized country. You can punish someone for something you can prove they did. How is not recalling something a crime?

Edited by Skarpen

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Info on Medi-Care for all funding in the US. I'll save you some reading: you won't get there by taxing the rich. If you took every penny they had, killed them and sold their organs on the black market and made wallets from their skin to sell on EBAY it would not even get you half way there. If you want free health care you are going to have to pay for it. And pay dearly. (No I was not being intentionally ironic).  

http://www.crfb.org/papers/choices-financing-medicare-all-preliminary-analysis

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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33 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Info on Medi-Care for all funding in the US. I'll save you some reading: you won't get there by taxing the rich. If you took every penny they had, killed them and sold their organs on the black market and made wallets from their skin to sell on EBAY it would not even get you half way there. If you want free health care you are going to have to pay for it. And pay dearly. (No I was not being intentionally ironic).  

http://www.crfb.org/papers/choices-financing-medicare-all-preliminary-analysis

Sure, but the goal would also be to bring the medical care costs of our country more in line with others. Right now we pay close to double.

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1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

Sure, but the goal would also be to bring the medical care costs of our country more in line with others. Right now we pay close to double.

That will never happen when you remove the accountability of cost from the provider away from the end user. People want widgets. Some people can't afford widgets. So the government subsidizes the ability of the people to pay for widgets. The cost of widgets does not go down. Costs go down when widget sellers are competing with each other. When consumers buy more widgets from places that sell widgets cheaper. I can reduce the cost of health insurance right this very instant: let any seller sell any policy to anyone who wants it anywhere from sea to shining sea. 

The other reason it will never happen is nothing has ever been suggested about lowering operational costs for providers. Reduce their regulatory burden. Pass tort reform that limits punitive damages. That will lower their insurance costs. All costs are ultimately paid by the end user. Including taxes, fees, regulatory costs and things that have nothing to do with the service rendered that day. There are numerous places the government jack boot can be eased off the necks of providers that lower their costs and ultimately end user costs. Not happening. The ruling class is very, very jealous of it's powers and prerogatives and will never  give anything back once they have passed it. No matter how much it might help. The government is not in the business of helping people. 

Edited by Guard Dog
Grammar
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"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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dems whining about Trump not telling them about the raid is hilarious. why should he trust them? They've labeled him a Nazi, a traitor, a Russian spy, a racist, a sexist, and a host of other things.. he can't trust them.

Plus, they don't follow Amerikan laws since they are anti allowing ICE do their job and are pro ILLEGAL immigration.

 

Of course, Trump is also anti Amerika, and anti alw. Both sides are scumbags. LMAO

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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In Volo, veritas.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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5 hours ago, Volourn said:

dems whining about Trump not telling them about the raid is hilarious. why should he trust them? They've labeled him a Nazi, a traitor, a Russian spy, a racist, a sexist, and a host of other things.. he can't trust them.

Plus, they don't follow Amerikan laws since they are anti allowing ICE do their job and are pro ILLEGAL immigration.

 

Of course, Trump is also anti Amerika, and anti alw. Both sides are scumbags. LMAO

Trump is a racist and a sexist and a fascist lite but trying to break from bipartisn foreign policy norm is actually a plus in his favor.....but then Democrats ruin it by trying to impeach him over it.

 

Neoliberal capitalism and corporate seizure of the government along with with the military industrial complex and war machine sucks but as long as Americans keep getting their consumer goods en masse and voting in two parties it will remain 1945 status quo.

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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There is a saying in my country, "Amerikanske tilstander" which can be loosely translated as "American conditions", which only partly captures the meaning.  It's generally used when you want to warn about traditional social democratic values being at risk.

However in the last years "Svenske tilstander", or "Swedish conditions", has been far more referred to. It's basically the easiest go-to argument of right-wing politicians here. It's crazy that two so similar countries in many ways have become so different when it comes to crime: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/bomb-attacks-are-now-a-normal-part-of-swedish-life/?fbclid=IwAR1enB1nBfKOWOic48XkX27qAzd4jlPk1Os7lCtjFGKzcT6ThTk1g7J3MaE

 

ps. We also have a saying which is even more popular than both of those, and used by pretty much everyone. "Texas!" or "That was completely Texas", meaning "that was wild/chaotic/crazy".

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Heh, funny to see how Texas 'everything is big there' has gone international, though I guess it may be more of an association of Texas with Wild West. Here though, Florida or 'Florida Man' is the one that tends to get stuck with the crazy/wild bit rather than Texas even though Florida is no more or less wild/crazy as any other state, Republican, Democrat, or otherwise.

Edited by smjjames
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14 hours ago, Maedhros said:

ps. We also have a saying which is even more popular than both of those, and used by pretty much everyone. "Texas!" or "That was completely Texas", meaning "that was wild/chaotic/crazy".

:lol:

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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Western Alienation was something we heard a lot about from Canada back in the 90's. Quebec is always rumbling about secession but in their case they are a country within a country. But the western provinces have been in the same situation as our "deplorable" "flyover" states. The costal liberals look down their noses at them with a mixture of disgust and patronizing contempt. Looks like this is still a thing: https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/29/justin-trudeau-victory-canada-wexit-060634

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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