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The double cast bonus seems to be tempting but thats basically all you get compared to blood mage ( who also gets power level boost after using blood sacrifice ) and then you lose access to half of wizard spells when going with evoker, and in prolonged fights blood mage will  be able to cast more of the same spells than evoker with double cast, losing access to combusting wounds arcane dampener etc. is really painful I could see evoker being superior if I had another wizard in the party but I just don't want to do that really 

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i mean, blood mage is just pretty danged good, i legit don't think any other wizard makes for a fair comparison. The only argument I can see against blood mage come down to playstyle difference - basically if you're not a fan of repetitively casting the same spells, abusing the blood sacrifice mechanic, then you should do something else. (even in non-prolonged fights the ability to game which spells you get back over and over is extremely powerful).

 

objectively, evoker is pretty good - double cast bonus is pretty variable, but pretty great when it triggers (probably the best non-blood mage subclass bonus). if you want the most powerful wizard subclass, then like i said, i find it personally hard to argue against blood mage other than from a playstyle perspective. but if you want something fun, that just happens to pretty good, then I would focus just on the evoker's merits instead of trying to do a comparison with blod mage.

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How reliable is blood sacrifice btw? I remember I tried single class blood mage on some SSS fights and he was not able to restore high level spells reliably ( I would use only 1 spell from highest tier and try to restore it with blood sacrifice only worked once in 5 tries or so other tries going blank but dealing self damage) I assume I would need to concentrate on lower tier spells(also this probably means I cant spam all the self buffs at beginning), im multi classing this time anyway so last 2 tiers won't be there anyway. I wonder if using Voidward and reducing raw damage taken interferes with spell level I can restore

Edited by 3x0du5

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14 minutes ago, 3x0du5 said:

How reliable is blood sacrifice btw? I remember I tried single class blood mage on some SSS fights and he was not able to restore high level spells reliably ( I would use only 1 spell from highest tier and try to restore it with blood sacrifice only worked once in 5 tries or so other tries going blank but dealing self damage) I assume I would need to concentrate on lower tier spells(also this probably means I cant spam all the self buffs at beginning), im multi classing this time anyway so last 2 tiers won't be there anyway. I wonder if using Voidward and reducing raw damage taken interferes with spell level I can restore

check @thelee guide, he explained there how blood sacrifice work https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/wizard

voidvard just reduce raw dmg

try to give bm some healing over time (like robust or lay of hands, or even lesser lay from gloves) and grab with wall of draining few enemies to prolong effect, then you can spam  sacrifice to get spells you want

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31 minutes ago, 3x0du5 said:

also this probably means I cant spam all the self buffs at beginning

if this is the style of wizard you like to play you may find blood mage a bit less impressive - boeroer uses this as his common critique of the class. you'll be wasting a lot of time just whiffing on spell restoring the uses for those buffs when you could just empower or do something else. not as a big of a problem for prolonged fights.

when i played around with blood mage the only buff i really cared about was deleterious alacrity of motion, and then i'd just focus on spamming the most abusive spell at the moment.

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You may want to cast tier 1-3 buffs just to get something when blood sacrifice random effect restore a spell up to tier 3. Infuse Vital essence boost to Con might be handy for Bloodmages too.

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Don't forget that Evokers get increased Power Levels (+2) for evocation spells. For stuff like missiles that's pretty good. 

I a whole party I rarely have to use Blood Sacrifice (after gettig some more spell tiers). I seldomly use all my spells up - especially with the Fractured Casque + Vaporous Wizardry combo which would give me 3 spell uses per tier.

If one doesn't have a reason to circumvent Empower (like doing a no-rest run) then Empower is a pretty great mechanic for all evocation spells, too. Particularly if you also spend some ability points on those empower-related passives at PL7.

The biggest annoyance is indeed the loss of some really good spells. I generally don't like that "balancing" approach on Wizards. Should have given them a PL malus for some schools of magic in exchange for +2 PL boost for one school. Completely cutting two schools takes away so much potential fun. See Transmuter + Draconic Fury and so on...

Edited by Boeroer

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This.... this is something I should have read before installing this game, I actually spent half of last night reading it 😅  thank you for pointing it out and especially thank you @thelee for making it, all that info in one place is invaluable! Some parts of that FAQ should be really accessible from the main menu of Deadfire! 

Also special thanks to @Boeroer for always giving answers to all kinds of questions based on his own in game experience which otherwise would take me days of play time to figure out, really appreciate it!

Anyway I'm still in tough spot deciding between Evoker and Blood Mage because honestly these would be 2 very similar builds that would probably work just well enough to not have troubles on potd with a party while not getting bored with it really fast

The character I am looking to build is Warlock spell caster who spams spells with all the barbarian action speed buffs also getting some on hit passive from improved frenzy and skip recovery on spells after you score a kill which should happen quite often, in my recent play trough I played Witch Ascendant/Furry Shaper and all that spamming by frenzied caster was really fun for a while until it got old because : after early thunderous report  and instant ascension this character would just Finnish 99% of the fights by itself with either AI spamming Silent Scream or me queuing 20 amplified waves on a tank while priest casts salvation of time twice. I think its safe to assume that playing Warlock instead of Witch would be more exciting than cipher spamming one spell until the fight is over.

I guess when I say spamming spells it should automatically be blood mage but since Boeroer shared that tip with double Fireball necklaces well I can get 8 additional fireballs per encounter on evoker, which is why I cant make up my mind 🤔

 

 

Edited by 3x0du5
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I didn't test if those Fireballs from the necklace also can trigger Evoker's "double cast". But of course that's 8 additional Fireballs which is a lot. :)

Warlock can be big fun. I personally wouldn't pick Evoker because the loss of Transmutation ans Conjuration is too much of a sacrifice for me. But of course the potential double cast should work well with Blood Thirst.

Small tipp: if you wear Rekvu's Fractured Casque (for example to be able to use the Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry - or just because you hate getting interrupted) you can cast Slicken onto yourself (e.g. while surrounded by enemies). Last time I did this it turned out that I was also immune to Slicken's effects. That's pretty handy.


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I would instantly picked evoker if combusting wounds was not locked for the subclass, its kinda sad that wizards are so gutted by subclasses and not having their own editable grimoire, truly no fun allowed eh 😕

 

Also I got some questions about barbarian abilities interacting with spells : Blood Frenzy would add bleed effect from spell crits ? Lion spring accuracy "next attack" works with spells ?

Edited by 3x0du5

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Blood Frenzy/Storm: yes, it works with spells. The DoT will get applied on crit. For example if you cast a beam like Ray of Fire on a target you will have a high chance of triggering it (since beams do hit rolls every 1 sec). All pulsing spells are great for this (Chillfog, Slicken, beams, Malignant Cloud, Freezing Pillar, etc.). Even ones that don't normally deal damage like Slicken dan be tuened into a DoT spell that way. 

Death by DoT triggers Blood Thirst. :)

However, Blood Frenzy does not work with Carnage because Carnage can't crit.

Spirit Frenzy/Tornado also works with spells: they will stagger on hit (Carnage as well). This can help to land spells against Fortitude. For example if you use a spell like Repulsive Visage or Enervating Terror (vs. Will defense) while under Spirit Frenzy you will cause Terrify (-10 Will), Weaken or Sicken (-10 Fortitude) and Stagger (-10 Fortitude) - which is great in order to crack some tough nuts like Trolls who die from Combusting Wounds very quickly - if you can only hit them (they have enormous Fortutide usually but very low Will).

Lion's Sprint did actually work like this: activate it, cast a spell and the first hit roll after activating Lion's Sprint got +15 ACC. It was superhandy in order to land the important CC spells. But they somwhow broke it with a patch. It's not better or worse per se now, maybe more exploitable.

 Now it does NOT work for all direct, immediate spells like Fireball, Dazzling Lights, Combusting Wounds and so on BUT it works with all pulsing spells like Chillfog, Slicken, all beams, Freezing Pillar and so on. And not only for the next attack but as long as Lion's Sprint is active! That means all Chillfog or Slicken Pulses will gain +15 ACC (as long as Lion's Sprint is active). Also beams will hit better when they are active - it will also help to land the initial beam cast.

You can see how this beautifully synergizes with Blood Frenzy/Storm. :) It's a lot easier to crit if you get +15 ACC for all your pulsing spells that also deal raw DoT on crit. 

 

PS: if somebody wonders when I tested this: 5 minutes ago while writing the post. I was wondering if anything has changed since I played my last Warlock. Apparently a lot changed... :)

 

Barbarian with +15 ACC and raw DoT pulsing spells also works well with Druid (several pulses), Priest (some pulses) and Cipher (beams mostly).

Edited by Boeroer
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21 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Blood Frenzy/Storm: yes, it works with spells. The DoT will get applied on crit. For example if you cast a beam like Ray of Fire on a target you will have a high chance of triggering it (since beams do hit rolls every 1 sec). All pulsing spells are great for this (Chillfog, Slicken, beams, Malignant Cloud, Freezing Pillar, etc.). Even ones that don't normally deal damage like Slicken dan be tuened into a DoT spell that way. 

Really wish I knew this with my Tempest :(

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Blood Frenzy's DoT is not stackable (except duration) and "only" does 4 base raw damage per 3 secs. So it's not breathtakingly good - also because you need crits - and once you can produce crits a lot you're usually winning already (without further low-dmg and & short-lived DoT). So generally I consider Spirit Frenzy to be better because the Stagger helps a lot to land several good other spells that target fortitude. Especially when used with sickening/weakening spells. 

It becomes interesting with Blood Storm though because at some point (with the right spells) you start to kill frequently and quickly (Blood Thirst) and that frees up some points of Rage that would otherwise need to be spend for Spirit Tornado. But then on the other hand Spirit Tornado is very good, too (if you are in melee range often).

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3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Blood Frenzy/Storm: yes, it works with spells. The DoT will get applied on crit. For example if you cast a beam like Ray of Fire on a target you will have a high chance of triggering it (since beams do hit rolls every 1 sec). All pulsing spells are great for this (Chillfog, Slicken, beams, Malignant Cloud, Freezing Pillar, etc.). Even ones that don't normally deal damage like Slicken dan be tuened into a DoT spell that way. 

Death by DoT triggers Blood Thirst. :)

However, Blood Frenzy does not work with Carnage because Carnage can't crit.

Spirit Frenzy/Tornado also works with spells: they will stagger on hit (Carnage as well). This can help to land spells against Fortitude. For example if you use a spell like Repulsive Visage or Enervating Terror (vs. Will defense) while under Spirit Frenzy you will cause Terrify (-10 Will), Weaken or Sicken (-10 Fortitude) and Stagger (-10 Fortitude) - which is great in order to crack some tough nuts like Trolls who die from Combusting Wounds very quickly - if you can only hit them (they have enormous Fortutide usually but very low Will).

Lion's Sprint did actually work like this: activate it, cast a spell and the first hit roll after activating Lion's Sprint got +15 ACC. It was superhandy in order to land the important CC spells. But they somwhow broke it with a patch. It's not better or worse per se now, maybe more exploitable.

 Now it does NOT work for all direct, immediate spells like Fireball, Dazzling Lights, Combusting Wounds and so on BUT it works with all pulsing spells like Chillfog, Slicken, all beams, Freezing Pillar and so on. And not only for the next attack but as long as Lion's Sprint is active! That means all Chillfog or Slicken Pulses will gain +15 ACC (as long as Lion's Sprint is active). Also beams will hit better when they are active - it will also help to land the initial beam cast.

You can see how this beautifully synergizes with Blood Frenzy/Storm. :) It's a lot easier to crit if you get +15 ACC for all your pulsing spells that also deal raw DoT on crit. 

 

PS: if somebody wonders when I tested this: 5 minutes ago while writing the post. I was wondering if anything has changed since I played my last Warlock. Apparently a lot changed... :)

 

Barbarian with +15 ACC and raw DoT pulsing spells also works well with Druid (several pulses), Priest (some pulses) and Cipher (beams mostly).

This is... weird. So now it works only for Single Attacks and pulsing spell ? Does pulsing spell even consume Lion Sprint proc or can you still attack once with a +15 Acc bonus ? I wouldn't be surprise if isn't supposed to be consumed or applied by spell but somehow applied to pulsing  for some reasons...

Soubds like they changed 1 parameter in the data file with some impredictable consequence. Pulsing spell may simply be applying the caster accuracy (without filtering the spell acc bonus keyword) rather than the casting accuracy, which could explain this.

Edited by Elric Galad

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Seems Warlock will be really fun to play , ill go for Human Bloodmage and try to get good use of Blooded and Fighting spirit along with plenty other benefits of this multi class.

 

Thanks for explaining some of these weird mechanics in depth this seems even stronger now than I thought before, funny how Barbarians are so good at being casters 😄

Edited by 3x0du5
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