Politics: The Undiscovered Country

[Gromnir]

9 minutes ago, Amentep said:

This is the Political thread, not an episode of Scooby Doo. Let's forego attempts to prove the Ghost of Elias Kingston is really Stuart Weatherby.  Or for that matter psychoanalysing other posters.

sarcasm and irony has author, by definition, saying something they don't believe.

powers that be ain't suggesting we must must necessarily ignore author intent and motive, yes? suggest ultimate reason for post is childhood traumas and over strict potty training is a far different thing from assessing authorial intent. nevertheless, is this one o' those unwritten but enforceable new board rules which come up from time-to-time?  should make clear, 'cause is not.

were amentep being hyperbolic with psychoanalysis? if so, that also requires reader assessment and discrimination o' author's actual meaning. take too literal is a mistake. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

57 minutes ago, Amentep said:

This is the Political thread, not an episode of Scooby Doo. Let's forego attempts to prove the Ghost of Elias Kingston is really Stuart Weatherby.  Or for that matter psychoanalysing other posters.

Politics is a lot like a Hanna Barbera show though

[Gromnir]

12 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Politics is a lot like a Hanna Barbera show though

if you mean how venture brothers does a take on hanna-barbera, then yeah... maybe add a bit o' gilliam's brazil and sweet smell of success thrown into the mix.

HA! Good Fun!

[Skarpen]

So, back on the topic of the whisteblower. 

As I correctly predicted it's a big dud, but with a nice twist. So we can put to sleep all the fairytales about Trump selling info to Russia and North Korea that endangered all American spies.

Apparently the story is allegedly that Trump asked Ukraine PM to get some info on Biden's son dealings with Ukraine. Allegedly, because whistleblower didn't obtain any info nor heard the conversation himself, he kinda formulated the info based on secondhand information.

The nice twist is that this will put a spotlight on Biden and his ties to Ukraine, something he fought very strongly to be buried. So yet again something that was intended as an assault on Trump will bite the Dems in the rear. Priceless 

[smjjames]

6 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

We've also got a pretty silly State versus Federal government war going on, GD. 

Between California and the Trump admin in particular, yeah.

Though it's not dissimilar was it was during Obama and Bush 43, it wasn't as... combative I guess, not publicly in the way it is now anyway.

[smjjames]

Doublepost because I didn't see the post until just a min ago, for some reason:

26 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

So, back on the topic of the whisteblower. 

As I correctly predicted it's a big dud, but with a nice twist. So we can put to sleep all the fairytales about Trump selling info to Russia and North Korea that endangered all American spies.

Apparently the story is allegedly that Trump asked Ukraine PM to get some info on Biden's son dealings with Ukraine. Allegedly, because whistleblower didn't obtain any info nor heard the conversation himself, he kinda formulated the info based on secondhand information.

The nice twist is that this will put a spotlight on Biden and his ties to Ukraine, something he fought very strongly to be buried. So yet again something that was intended as an assault on Trump will bite the Dems in the rear. Priceless 

Yeah, the thing that it's lacking is the actual content of what was said, but you know, confidential/classified communications. And then theres the whole DNI stonewalling which is activating Dems already suspicious of the Trump admin.

I'd also read something that said it appeared that the Ukraine government was trying it's best to not actually comply (though mostly using the excuse of it's already been looked into) or at least slow walk it, which if true, kudos to them at least.

[Malcador]

Not even sure what problem is being fixed by revoking California's waiver.  Seems they are framing it as CA setting the standards for the entire country in their reasoning (or at least what Wheeler has said) and that is bad ?

[smjjames]

They're claiming that it'll improve air quality or somesuch hyocrisy, nevermind the fact that said California standards were set as a fix for bad air quality in LA particularly (which isn't helped by geography trapping the smog in the area). Plus they've been trying to get around the Californa waivers for a while now, while auto companies cry out for stability.

[Gromnir]

18 minutes ago, smjjames said:

Doublepost because I didn't see the post until just a min ago, for some reason:

Yeah, the thing that it's lacking is the actual content of what was said, but you know, confidential/classified communications. And then theres the whole DNI stonewalling which is activating Dems already suspicious of the Trump admin.

I'd also read something that said it appeared that the Ukraine government was trying it's best to not actually comply (though mostly using the excuse of it's already been looked into) or at least slow walk it, which if true, kudos to them at least.

don't forget that the IG, a trump appointee, is the one who determined whistleblower complaint were not only "credible" but "urgent." dni passing on the info to Congress is nothing more than a ministerial step, but didn't do so. the only reason we even know 'bout any o' this is the IG informed Congress that the dni didn't pass along the whistleblower complaint and the IG findings as required by law.

the biden stuff, for the moment, is immaterial. dni had a duty to communicate with Congress 'cause IG found a whistleblower complaint to be credible AND urgent. the real irony being that if IG didn't find credible and urgent, the whistleblower coulda' gone to Congress and still benefited from whistleblower protections.

david copperfield makes statue o' liberty seem to disappear. trump admin is doing similar daily... and meanwhile making the Constitution disappear for reals. 

HA! Good Fun!

[ktchong]

Here is why Andrew Yang will never win the Democratic nomination:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too much IQ.  He really needs to dumb it down for Americans.

Edited September 22, 2019 by ktchong

[smjjames]

21 minutes ago, ktchong said:

Here is why Andrew Yang will never win the Democratic nomination:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm confused, Yang will never win the nomination because the two videos make a very good argument for Yang? Krystal Ball clearly supports Yangs position and while the Thorium one is a more technical type discussion, the video makes the case for Thorium (molten salt) reactors.

21 minutes ago, ktchong said:

Too much IQ.  He really needs to dumb it down for Americans.

 

Um, Elizabeth Warren is just as policy detailed, wonky, and IQ as Yang and look how popular she is.....

I really don't think Democrats need to dumb it down to 'Hur durr, Thog smash....' levels.

Edited September 22, 2019 by smjjames

[Guard Dog]

26 minutes ago, smjjames said:

II really don't think Democrats need to dumb it down to 'Hur durr, Thog smash....' levels.

[ktchong]

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by ktchong

[Malcador]

What the kids really need is this guy's teachings

 

 

[Skarpen]

7 hours ago, Gromnir said:

don't forget that the IG, a trump appointee, is the one who determined whistleblower complaint were not only "credible" but "urgent." dni passing on the info to Congress is nothing more than a ministerial step, but didn't do so. the only reason we even know 'bout any o' this is the IG informed Congress that the dni didn't pass along the whistleblower complaint and the IG findings as required by law.

the biden stuff, for the moment, is immaterial. dni had a duty to communicate with Congress 'cause IG found a whistleblower complaint to be credible AND urgent. the real irony being that if IG didn't find credible and urgent, the whistleblower coulda' gone to Congress and still benefited from whistleblower protections.

david copperfield makes statue o' liberty seem to disappear. trump admin is doing similar daily... and meanwhile making the Constitution disappear for reals. 

HA! Good Fun!

So, IG made a mistake. That's basically it, no matter how much would anti Trumpers want this to be something to blame on him. The most that can happen is IG resignation, but it probably won't even come to that.

[Gromnir]

teaching "the kids really need"? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Skarpen said:

So, IG made a mistake. That's basically it, no matter how much would anti Trumpers want this to be something to blame on him. The most that can happen is IG resignation, but it probably won't even come to that.

excuse double.

so, based on the information you have, information from sources you earlier dismissed as worthless fake news, you have determined the IG were wrong?

"WaPo article is nothing more at this point than fear mongering and story spinning speculation."

so, washington post were correct... or not? you believe their assessment o' facts... or not? am thinking is a given you got less info then the IG, but you are gonna make an assessment o' IG mistake based on info you received from... fake news?

not that it matters at this point whether or not IG were wrong. determination o' right or wrong comes after information is transmitted to Congress. whole point o' the IG making a determination independent is so whistleblower is protected and to minimize the influence o' those with motivation to keep information from reaching Congress. the statute is specific written so not even judicial review is possible. reason is to keep outside influences as limited as possible and to minimize chances o' whistleblower being effective criminalized for bringing information to Congress. wh and doj has no business making determinations or assessments at this stage.

no excuses. even if turns out that biden is the most corrupt Presidential candidate since, well, trump, it still wouldn't change fact the executive is interfering with lawful duty to transmit info to Congress. the whole biden thing is typical wh red herring nonsense... and skarpen relying on fake news to determine IG made a mistake?

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Skarpen]

44 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

excuse double.

so, based on the information you have, information from sources you earlier dismissed as worthless fake news, you have determined the IG were wrong?

"WaPo article is nothing more at this point than fear mongering and story spinning speculation."

so, washington post were correct... or not? you believe their assessment o' facts... or not? am thinking is a given you got less info then the IG, but you are gonna make an assessment o' IG mistake based on info you received from... fake news?

Ok, huh?

... oh sorry my mistake I ment not passing the info to congress as the mistake so it wasn't IG mistake it was DNI. Sorry about that.

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Ok, huh?

... oh sorry my mistake I ment not passing the info to congress as the mistake so it wasn't IG mistake it was DNI. Sorry about that.

according to adam schiff, the dni claimed he were withholding info 'cause a higher authority directed him to do do, which is why everybody jumped to conclusion trump were involved. was a security mater involving somebody overwhich dni didn't have authority and yet dni were directed not to release. how many folks could such statements apply? is why your initial dismissal o' story were making no sense. by time you complain, adam schiff had already confirmed ig actions and dni statements.

this don't end as you describe unless dni also says he lied to Congress, made up whole "higher authority" claim.

HA! Good Fun!

[Skarpen]

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

according to adam schiff, the dni claimed he were withholding info 'cause a higher authority directed him to do do, which is why everybody jumped to conclusion trump were involved. was a security mater involving somebody overwhich dni didn't have authority and yet dni were directed not to release. how many folks could such statements apply? is why your initial dismissal o' story were making no sense. by time you complain, adam schiff had already confirmed ig actions and dni statements.

this don't end as you describe unless dni also says he lied to Congress, made up whole "higher authority" claim.

HA! Good Fun!

Sigh...
You are free to revisit the WaPo story and what my dismissal was about. And I was 100% right about that. 

Now, unless the "higher authority" could be Trump and only Trump it cannot be pinned on him. And even then, he would need to confirm that he did (classic he said, she said)  and there are no chances he would do that. There is a possibility he did that on tape, but I wouldn't bet a dime on that. So I will keep my position that it will be the same dud as all previous attempts to get Trump.

There is also the case that Dems will be reluctant to push this to hard as a) It will hurt Biden as I explained earlier and b) Dems did the same thing last election.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

Sigh...
You are free to revisit the WaPo story and what my dismissal was about. And I was 100% right about that. 

 

you were wrong. your dismissal o' the washington post article were utter missing the point, which continues. supposition 'bout trump having conversations with another world leader, which from multiple fake news sources not only seems to be true but is pretty much how you know 'bout all the biden stuff, is all the more amusing 'cause you think such is significant in spite o' fake news, does not in anyway change the fundamental problem: somebody with authority over the acting dni concerning an intelligence matter instructed the dni not to fulfill obligations under the whistleblower act. 

wh could clarify, but is continuing to withhold info, which is precise why skarpy is relying on fake news to rebut w/o recognizing the inherent hypocrisy o' doing so.

and no, the issue don't disappear depending on trump or tapes or whatever else you wanna imagine. ig already found credible and urgent, necessitating communication to Congress. if only person who could order is trump and only trump, makes more immediate worse for trump. trump is likely the only person with authority over dni in such a case, but as acting dni, perhaps mcguire claims ignorance? regardless, the bad actor impeding lawful communication needs necessarily be somebody extreme high up in the wh administration. also, and once again, is still problem that nobody could legitimate give such an order. remains a charlie fox situation no matter how you spin. were cf as soon as time limit passed and dni did not pass along info. were omg cf when dni announces why he didn't transmit info, a situation which were accurate reported by the post at least as adam schiff describes.

am not sure how many more ways you could be wrong, but additional reply posts will no doubt, beyond reason, continue to surprise us.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[HoonDing]

Imagine being non-Amerikan and unironically supporting Trump.

[Skarpen]

49 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

you were wrong.

Sigh...

The WaPo article suggested without any facts known that Trump sold information to a foreign power. They suggested that it was maybe Putin or Kim. And you screamed in agreement, you even made a little rant how it must be the case. Now you are backpedaling into how the handling of the whistleblower is the problem rather than actual thing the whistleblower reported. 

We now know, because reliable sources provided information that WaPo article was as I correctly predicted a fearmongering and smearing Trump. 

As for if this will be something more than another dud remains to be seen but as of now it doesn't even look serious except the usual suspects talking heads declaring for a hundredth time the end of Trump. Soryy, but that's just the facts.

[Gromnir]

26 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Sigh...

The WaPo article suggested without any facts known that Trump sold information to a foreign power. They suggested that it was maybe Putin or Kim. And you screamed in agreement, you even made a little rant how it must be the case. Now you are backpedaling into how the handling of the whistleblower is the problem rather than actual thing the whistleblower reported. 

We now know, because reliable sources provided information that WaPo article was as I correctly predicted a fearmongering and smearing Trump. 

As for if this will be something more than another dud remains to be seen but as of now it doesn't even look serious except the usual suspects talking heads declaring for a hundredth time the end of Trump. Soryy, but that's just the facts.

"Trump’s communications with foreign leader are part of whistleblower complaint that spurred standoff between spy chief and Congress, former officials say"

actual headline. were specific stated in article the identity o' the foreign leader were unknown. coulda' been any number o' possibilities, possibilities which a few were listed. regardless, washington post clear got the basic info correct and they made clear the identity o' the leader were matter o' supposition as 'posed to fact.

"It was not immediately clear which foreign leader Trump was speaking with or what he pledged to deliver, but his direct involvement in the matter has not been previously disclosed. It raises new questions about the president’s handling of sensitive information and may further strain his relationship with U.S. spy agencies."

no argument.

as for us screaming agreement, prove. is like your earlier claims o' imaginary support? you are quite creative at pretending a myth is fact. so, show where we "screamed in agreement" for notion trump had been in contact with putin or kim, or even support o' the post reporting on the issue o' communication with a foreign leader. from start we has been saying the real issue is fact the dni has not transmitted what ig found to be credible and urgent to Congress. all else is actual red herring material which is impossible to fully corroborate or refute at this point, in part 'cause o' the obstruction by the dni. nevertheless, you rely on what you call fake news to support trump... which would be weird but for fact is you posting.

we did chastise fox news for their absence o' reporting on the issue, so perhaps you is confused... but still plain wrong.

am wondering how far down rabbit hole we need chase 'fore this hits predictable ridiculous point.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[smjjames]

Theres also a real case of 'the coverup is worse than the crime', or rather, attempts to cover Trumps ass is just making things worse here, especially for something that he keeps saying he 'did nothing wrong' for. If there's nothing wrong with it, why hide it?

To top it off, he's admitted to talking about Biden with the Ukraine and keeps saying there's nothing wrong with asking a foriegn country to look into an opponent.

5 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Sigh...
You are free to revisit the WaPo story and what my dismissal was about. And I was 100% right about that. 

Now, unless the "higher authority" could be Trump and only Trump it cannot be pinned on him. And even then, he would need to confirm that he did (classic he said, she said)  and there are no chances he would do that. There is a possibility he did that on tape, but I wouldn't bet a dime on that. So I will keep my position that it will be the same dud as all previous attempts to get Trump.

There is also the case that Dems will be reluctant to push this to hard as a) It will hurt Biden as I explained earlier and b) Dems did the same thing last election.

If you mean the Steele stuff, it's not even in the same league as what Trump is doing, the DNC asked a private citizen (who had been hired by Republicans previously) while Trump is trying to get the elected leader of another countries government to do his bidding. Do you see the chasm in difference?