Few questions about builds

[Quaranyr]

Hello!

I have this (hopefully great) game for a long time (preorder) yet I've never really played it; first I wanted to wait for some patches/dlc, later I didn't have time, after that something else... You know how it happens.

Anyway, I have free time now, check the game after a rather long time, and by coincidence, the final patch just came out! Must be a sign:)

I have a few question through. I hope it's right subforum for them.

My main PoE1 character was a Pale Elf Cipher and I want to use him again. I'm kinda overwhelmed (pleasantly) by the sheer number of available (sub)classes and their combinations. It seems there are even more of them than the last time I checked!  Now, I'm quickly learn stuff when I'm into it but I would appreciate a few directions.

1) New turn-based mode looks pretty interesting. Will it be alright for my first real playthrough? Is there something really important about it I should know? It seems dex not as good as as in real-time?

2)How good/fun each of the subclasses (including base)? For both real-time and turn-based.

3)On the first look cipher's high-level spells look rather dissappointing. Multiclassing seems to be better option. Am I wrong?

4)In case of multiclass build, what would you recommend to try? It can be anything. Melee, ranged, stealth, pure caster, anything.

Sorry for possible problems with my English.

[omgFIREBALLS]

1 hour ago, Quaranyr said:

2)How good/fun each of the subclasses (including base)? For both real-time and turn-based.

Before psion was introduced, I was actually fond of base ciphers, though I enjoyed soul blade too. I use my cipher(s) as support characters and psion is just awesome because your ability to support isn't dictated by your ability to do damage. It's not hard to avoid taking damage, just throw on defensive gear and stay at range and you will not be an attractive target.

1 hour ago, Quaranyr said:

3)On the first look cipher's high-level spells look rather dissappointing. Multiclassing seems to be better option. Am I wrong? 

Since I play defensive, outlasting setups I'm extremely fond of Ancestor's Memory as that allows my cipher to replenish everyone else's resources, which means I can keep going and going and going. Being a PL7 ability, that is available to multiclasses too.

However, Driving Echoes (PL9) is by no means a weak ability. If you have insufficient penetration in Deadfire (1 or more less penetration than the target has armor), you do 70% less damage. While you certainly might "graduate out" of the need for the spell as you gain game knowledge, +8 pen is a mighty tool to have at your disposal.

1 hour ago, Quaranyr said:

4)In case of multiclass build, what would you recommend to try? It can be anything. Melee, ranged, stealth, pure caster, anything.

I like to multi anything at all with a paladin, and it's extra fun as a cipher, especially since I'm so fond of stacking defenses. Ciphers have their own +15 will talent. Paladins have access to the generic +10 will talent. Paladins can also get +15 all defenses through Faith and Conviction + Deep Faith and getting the right dispositions. On top of all this, as a cipher, you probably want to pump your int too, so even more +will from there. You could put on The One Ring and walk all the way to Mordor and it would just quietly whimper the entire journey.

P.S. I play RTWP, never turn-based.

Edited May 9, 2019 by omgFIREBALLS
NEMNOK! NEMNOK!

[Boeroer]

Point 3) is not really the case. THe active abilities of Power Level 8 and 9 vary from truly awesome (Time Siphon stacks with itself: giving you absurd action speed, Driving Echoes is one of the best things against bosses and Reaping Knives is very good as well) to meh (Hauning Chains... seriously? ). However, the passives are very good. Especially with a Beguiler which is my personal favorite cipher subclass. It totally removes the need to deal weapon damage - but you still can and still get focus. This works especially nice with casters who also don't attack with weapons that much.

Anything melee: go Soul Blade. Sometimes Ascendant (esp. when multiclassing with Barbarian or Streetfighter).

Ascendant is very good for any combination wjhere you can achieve high speed bonuses (includes single class Ascendant) and high durations (Monk's INT bonus, Priest's Salvation of Time, Wizard's Wall of Draining) because you want to dish out as many cipher spells as possible while ascended.

I can't say anything about Turn Based except that speed bonuses don't matter much - so forget what I said about Ascendant then.

[Jayd]

I feel Haunting Chains gets unfair hate. Sure if you compare it to the earlier terror Wizard spells it seems out of place in PL9. But it must be remembered that Wizards are limited to 2/encounter (usually) and with the opportunity cost of other spells at that level. A Cipher can gain enough focus to cast a level 9 spell in just a few seconds, and can therefore completely remove an enemy (or multiple if they are doing nothing else) from the fight indefinitely. Ciphers also get bonuses to will-targeting spells. So unless an enemy has resistance or sky-high will, a sc cipher can just turn them into a punching bag at will. Couple this with the fact that most CC targets fortitude and you realize you have the perfect tool to neutralize annoying enemy tanks. 

[dunehunter]

13 minutes ago, Jayd said:

I feel Haunting Chains gets unfair hate. Sure if you compare it to the earlier terror Wizard spells it seems out of place in PL9. But it must be remembered that Wizards are limited to 2/encounter (usually) and with the opportunity cost of other spells at that level. A Cipher can gain enough focus to cast a level 9 spell in just a few seconds, and can therefore completely remove an enemy (or multiple if they are doing nothing else) from the fight indefinitely. Ciphers also get bonuses to will-targeting spells. So unless an enemy has resistance or sky-high will, a sc cipher can just turn them into a punching bag at will. Couple this with the fact that most CC targets fortitude and you realize you have the perfect tool to neutralize annoying enemy tanks. 

It gets unfair hate because it's unfairly bad, that's all. It's a single target lvl2/lvl1 affliction spell which most boss will resist, and works not effectively against minions since it's single target spell. The only shining point is it applies body Affliction + target Will defense, which is pretty unique (most abilities/spells that apply body affliction targets Fortitude)

[MaxQuest]

10 hours ago, Quaranyr said:

1) New turn-based mode looks pretty interesting. Will it be alright for my first real playthrough? Is there something really important about it I should know? It seems dex not as good as as in real-time?

2)How good/fun each of the subclasses (including base)? For both real-time and turn-based.

3)On the first look cipher's high-level spells look rather dissappointing. Multiclassing seems to be better option. Am I wrong?

4)In case of multiclass build, what would you recommend to try? It can be anything. Melee, ranged, stealth, pure caster, anything.

Sorry for possible problems with my English.

1. Can't tell. I've tried TB briefly in 4.1.2. But the poor translation of action speed bonuses into actual benefit, felt underwhelming for me. On the other hand if you are ok with dumping DEX on all party members, it's not a problem at all. You can try a few combats in both modes, and see what suits you best.

2. It depends on the fight, and the amount of different, yet suiting spells that you will use in actual combat. For example streetfighter/ascendant is definitely strong, but gets too repetitive after awhile. Default soulblade is also boring (you just use the same 1-3 martial abilities to generate focus and SA). Beguiler, Trickster, Bloodmage might be more fun from this point of view. But still, it's a subjective topic.

3. Depends on what do you want from your cipher. If you want an overall damage dealer, than going for an MC ascendant or soublade multiclassed with some martial class (especially fighter, rogue, or barb) is a good idea, since such multi-classing will result in the quickest focus generation. 

For a cc cipher, you might want to go for sc-beguiler, or beguiler/trickster or beguiler/assassin.

And for a jack-of-all-trades cipher, I'd say go for sc-beguiler or sc-ascendant (if you are ok with switching firearms). These are good if you need those Driving Echoes and Death of 1000 Cuts for the boss fights. As for non-boss fights, single-class cipher's points forte are: Time Parasite + Shared Nightmare. A beguiler would be able to apply all his cc effects in a really large AoE; while ascendant would be able to spam Amplified Waves one after another.

Generally I would advice taking two ciphers: one multi-classed (specialized on maximing his "total damage"), and a single-classed beguiler or ascendant (that usually cc or support, but are able to assist with Driving Echoes and Death of 1000 Cuts later on)

4. Ascendant/Streetfighter ,Tactician/Ascendant or Tactician/Soulblade for damage dealing (from lvl 1 to lvl 20).

Mindstalker will have higher burst early on. While psyblade is sturdier and has access to a really amazing Clear Out (and tactician is there, just so you can use more of those).

Otherwise you can give up on Tactician and Clear Out and go for Devout and use mainly Penetrating Strike instead (with sabres, mortars, battle axes or swords).

Personally I am thinking about trying Tactician/Soublade with Eager Blade as main damage dealer (with Clear Out, Mob Stance and Bounding Strikes), and a jack-of-all-trades single-class Ascendant (quick-switching firearms), who would make sure that all enemies are flanked (Phantom Foes), and will later assist with Reaping Knives on the psyblade, Driving Echoes on my battlemage, Death of 1000 Cuts on bosses (note: both ciphers will be able to use Antipathetic Field for extra 'cuts'), and ofc with quick spamming of Amplified Waves (while ascended + quickened via Time Parasite + 200% AoE from Shared Nightmare)

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Jayd]

6 hours ago, dunehunter said:

It gets unfair hate because it's unfairly bad, that's all. It's a single target lvl2/lvl1 affliction spell which most boss will resist, and works not effectively against minions since it's single target spell. The only shining point is it applies body Affliction + target Will defense, which is pretty unique (most abilities/spells that apply body affliction targets Fortitude)

Saying it's bad against mobs because it's single target is a ridiculous argument. Is Soul Annihilation bad against mobs because it's single target? Stunning Surge? Flames of Devotion? Blinding Strike? Are you really going to maintain that single target abilities are universally bad in the vast majority of the game? (Before you say those are only good because they do damage, really consider the effect that hard CC has on an enemy, including your subsequent attempts to kill that enemy and its allies - its inability to defend itself, disrupt your party's actions, or support its teammates.)

Terrified is a lvl3 affliction - not lvl2 - and it's the real star. Hobbled just stops them from running about too quick and adds a reflex debuff.

Bosses tend to resist lots of afflictions - big deal. For the ones who resist resolve, you still get the ability to apply Frightened for a long time, which is good because bosses have very strong offensive abilities.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Jayd

[Boeroer]

It's a PL9 ability that terrifies a single enemy for a big amount of focus. 

The enemy can't take actions against you then.

Way before that you get an ability that does the same: it stops the enemy from fighting against you. But it also makes the enemy attack its allies. It's called Puppet Master.

This simple comparison shows why Haunting Chains is really bad for a PL9 ability. 

It's not unfair hate. It's reasonable criticism.

It's bad. 

So bad.

It's so bad that it went good from meh overflow, couldn't stop and went bad again.

That's how bad it is. I would even say it's worse than Kalakoths Frozen Fishfingers.

 

[Jayd]

21 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

It's a PL9 ability that terrifies a single enemy for a big amount of focus. 

The enemy can't take actions against you then.

Way before that you get an ability that does the same: it stops the enemy from fighting against you. But it also makes the enemy attack its allies. It's called Puppet Master.

This simple comparison shows why Haunting Chains is really bad for a PL9 ability. 

It's not unfair hate. It's reasonable criticism.

It's bad. 

So bad.

It's so bad that it went good from meh overflow, couldn't stop and went bad again.

That's how bad it is. I would even say it's worse than Kalakoths Frozen Fishfingers.

 

Dominated enemies benefit from your AOE heals and buffs, and the dominated effect breaks when they are deliberately attacked . It is a bad ability to use if you want the target dead. Other spells that stop a single enemy from fighting (stasis shell cipher lv7, temporal cocoon wizard lv8) also stop them from being targeted (except petrification (at wizard lv9!))

Haunting Chains both renders an enemy as no threat and makes them vulnerable to get focused down for a hefty duration, cast by a character with bonus accuracy and who can easily restore their resources, anywhere within a 10m radius. There is no other ability with all these benefits.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Jayd
Added correction

[thelee]

Just now, Jayd said:

the dominated effect breaks when they are deliberately attacked.

nope, only charmed acts like this.

[Boeroer]

11 minutes ago, Jayd said:

And the dominated effect breaks when they are deliberately attacked. It is a bad ability to use if you want the target dead.  

That is not correct. I didn't use Whisper of Treason for a reason. That rhymes. And what rhymes is true.

 

14 minutes ago, Jayd said:

except petrification (at wizard lv9!))

You make it sound as if Haunting chain was not PL9. Petrification is another PL9 spell that nobody picks by the way. 

16 minutes ago, Jayd said:

Haunting Chains both renders an enemy as no threat and makes them vulnerable to get focused down for a hefty duration, cast by a character with bonus accuracy and who can easily restore their resources, anywhere within a 10m radius. There is no other ability with all these benefits.

Sure there is. It's called Puppet Master. Read that somewhere...

[Jayd]

Let me give an example: a swashbuckler dives your backline squishies. It's a big threat to your party with its accurate interrupts, afflictions, and damage. Your cipher has focus. They can:

1. Dominate it, in which case it runs off to find the nearest enemy while probably being healed by your party. You need to watch the dominated duration; when it expires you will need to deal with it again. If you try to kill it while dominated you will have to overcome your own party healing/buffs and probably move characters out of position to chase it. 
2. Disintegrate, which will  do good damage but likely be a fair deal tougher to land, and will not prevent it from spamming interrupting full attacks on your priest or w/e.
3. Stasis, which will keep you safe, buy you time to thin the herd/reposition, etc., but you'll still have to watch the time and deal with the swash.
4. Haunting Chains, which will keep your party safe from it, allow the cipher to dps the swash with their weapon and regain focus, have other party members help burst it down if they are not doing anything more important (it lasts a long time so nbd). Downside is this costs more focus than the other two.

 

You'll notice that the only downside to HC is the extra focus, unlike the (imo more significant) downsides of the other options. It's then offset by giving the cipher a perfect target to go after with their weapon. Moreover, that option just gives you much more freedom than the others. You can damage, you can ignore, you can move, you can do whatever the flow of the fight indicates you should do about that swash, without having to navigate the spells restrictions. It won't always be the best move, but it seems like a pretty solid one to me.

 

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

You make it sound as if Haunting chain was not PL9. Petrification is another PL9 spell that nobody picks by the way. 

That was not my intention - the intention was to point out that the most comparable spell is also level 9 but on 1/encounter with a shorter duration. That is a bad spell.

[Boeroer]

Or you cast a Desintegration plus Puppet Master and don't bother at all while the enemy fights for you and binds other enemies.

Or you spend 10 focus for a Whisper of Treason to turn him around, remove the threat entirely for 10 focus and deal with him later. In the meantime he engages and damages your enemies and works like a summon. Due to PL scaling he does that for a really long time, too.

Haunting Chain would be fine if it had a small AoE. 1.25 m would be sufficient. Then it would  have a synergy with Shared Nightmare and I would be pleased. That would be an ok PL 9 ability. Single target Terrifiy is too bad for PL 9.

Driving Echoes is great (if you are not solo). Death of 1000 cuts is nice if you use Antipathetic Field. The passives are great. Haunting Chains is not. If you have to pick your PL 9 ability you gimp yourself with Haunting Chains. Or you chain yourself with Haunting Chains. Except if you play solo cipher. That would be the only case where I would maybe take it. Maybe...

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Boeroer

[Jayd]

Your first alternative requires two castings, making it slow and giving the enemy time to do serious damage. Your second alternative is just stating an option with all the downsides I've already identified.

Look, obviously Haunting Chains isn't going to replace every other spell you have, but you're not going to replicate it with other spells either. Beating the crap out of a a helpless enemy is obviously good, no-nonsense, effective destruction, and dominating does not give you the same experience. 

I'm curious about Antipathetic Field + 1000 cuts now you mention it. Every tick triggers the extra damage and duration? Does it only work on enemies between the target and the cipher or does it work on the target too?

[Boeroer]

Unfortunately it only works on enemies cought in between. But Antipathetic Field is the only Shred spell that triggers Death oTC in such a fast fashion.

[Yosharian]

I am currently in the middle of a turn-based playthrough and I can tell you that Dexterity is pretty much a dump stat in this mode.  Going earlier in the turn order is a dubious benefit at best.  It could be somewhat useful for controller characters, but personally I'm not convinced it's anywhere near as important as Perception, Might, Intelligence, etc, on 99% of builds.

[Quaranyr]

Thank you all, especially MaxQuest.

I'm still deciding what exact build and game mode I like more but you advices are really helpful.  Through I like both Psyblade and Inquisitor. Btw Ascendant is propably not that good at turn-based, right?

How dangerous it is to dump any stat? (Other than dexterity in turn-based mode.) In the first game my character had 3 resolve - the biggest problem it gave me was constant stream of "not enough resolve" in dialogues. Is having lower than average resolve/constitution bring more problems here?

[omgFIREBALLS]

It's not as bad as in PoE1. Also, it's much easier to pump stats in Deadfire, so if you really want to pass a resolve check despite having dumped it, you can stack buffs for it without the (Suppressed) spam of Pillars 1. Long ago I saw someone post a guide for how to (temporarily, of course) go from 3 to 15 resolve to pass a certain check. It might be possible to go even higher, but 3 is the lowest you can have and 15 is what the check required, so they might have just stopped at +12 ^^

Edited May 10, 2019 by omgFIREBALLS

[MaxQuest]

5 hours ago, Quaranyr said:

Btw Ascendant is propably not that good at turn-based, right?

Yeah, Ascendant must be weaker in TB than in RTwP.

Because durations there are discrete, and speed bonuses don't allow you cast more than 1 power per round anyway, even if you have a ton of them.

 

Ascended state base duration is 15s, so it will last 2 rounds afaik. In order to get to 3 rounds - you need 14 INT, and for 4 rounds - 22 INT, right?

And ascendant in RTwP should be able to cast more than 4 powers in 24s. 

 

5 hours ago, Quaranyr said:

How dangerous it is to dump any stat? (Other than dexterity in turn-based mode.) In the first game my character had 3 resolve - the biggest problem it gave me was constant stream of "not enough resolve" in dialogues. Is having lower than average resolve/constitution bring more problems here?

I wouldn't dump CON below 5, as it increases the chance to be oneshot from focus fire.

As for RES, it's usually a good idea to either dump it completely, or max it to the roof (because increasing deflection and decreasing hostile effects duration is subject to increasing returns; also some builds might want to have high will vs Arcane Dampener). Just be aware, that if you need Magistrate's Cudgel mace you will need to pass 15 resolve check; or use console. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Quaranyr]

How is melee/ranged weapon combo supposed to work?

In turn-based it's usually "hack if target is close, shoot if not", through sometimes the character run in melee instead of shooting?

And in the real-time mode there were a few times when the character shot a (moving closer) enemy and than, without recovery time/reload animation, attacked it in melee?

[AndreaColombo]

AFAIK, it’s supposed to shoot distant targets and hack those in melee range. It is possible that the character would actively get to melee range if its A.I. was set to use an ability that is melee-only.

[Quaranyr]

I had it happen whwn I control the character, not AI. There were a few times when I simply clicked on the target and the character in question run to melee range and melee attacked in melee despite being able to shoot.

What about the times in real-time when the character shot and than attacked in melee without pause in between? It seems that it can happen when the target moves in melee range durung the character's shooting animation and he have melee weapon in the other hand but it doesn't happen always.