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Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

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1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

our insistence on voting for most qualified and admirable candidate must be difficult to accept if you are so invested in subverting the dominant paradigm that abilities and character is secondary issues.

 

 

So, how did that work out in '16? Voting for the most qualified and admirable candidate? Did you just skip the Presidential box on your ballot? Write a name in? Because if you checked any box at all you screwed the pooch on that one.


“I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” 
― Henry David Thoreau

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1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

So, how did that work out in '16? Voting for the most qualified and admirable candidate? Did you just skip the Presidential box on your ballot? Write a name in? Because if you checked any box at all you screwed the pooch on that one.

our choice in no way made gary johnson a better candidate, and investing libertarian dollars in a hopeless national campaign when money and effort woulda' been far better spent on winnable local and state offices don't make your defense any better.

that said, if in 2016 we were in a battleground state and we voted gary johnson 'stead o' clinton, chances are we woulda felt sick. clinton were almost equal on the skeevy scale compared to trump, but of those choices available, she were the most competent.

a clinton Presidency mighta' been an ideal situation for the Court as well. with a republican senate, only genuine qualified and moderate appointees by clinton woulda' won approval.  sure, the appointees woulda' been a bit more activist than we prefer, but again, competence and character, eh?  instead, a few o' the fed judges being lightning approved by the senate is having dubious qualifications and/or character. 

clinton, from day 1, woulda' been a virtual lame duck, which would be gd's ideal President as far as we can tell. republican senate and house woulda' prevented any meaningful changes domestic. 

so with clinton we would necessarily get competent and unimpeachable (figurative) appointees as well as functional greater state influence as fed influence dwindled while exec and legislature worked at cross purposes... or found limited room for bipartisan common ground. 

our dislike o' clinton could be described as approaching loathing, but am forced to consider the possibility a kodos win woulda' been better for america.

HA! Good Fun!


"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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Meh, six of one, half dozen of the other, I'm pretty pleased with Goresuch for the most part.


“I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” 
― Henry David Thoreau

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well some people have pricimples and some don't.  for example you are this guy Gromnir:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

Meh, six of one, half dozen of the other, I'm pretty pleased with Goresuch for the most part.

am also pleased with gorsuch. is already the third best writer on the Court. unfortunate, am embarrassed by  the kavanaugh circus.  the thing is, we woulda' also been satisfied (if less pleased) with merrick garland even if we don't share his legal philosophy. moderate. competent. character? am not certain what senate woulda' uncovered, but considerable time passed after obama tabbed garland for the scalia vacancy and the worst thing anybody discovered 'bout him is that he had an extensive comic book collection, which he sold to help pay for law school. tutored elementary school kids in spite o' his busy schedule.

oh well. 

as for chill... anybody may click the links. check list o' Gromnir posts. check yours. let'em decide. compare us to neville chamberlain? 

...

okie dokie.

HA! Good Fun!

  • Haha 1

"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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In this US, there is no ideal voting strategy. Options are limited. Either you vote with conviction and encourage everyone to strive for their ideal. Or you compromise and vote for the lesser of evils.

Well what people learned is that the earlier they compromise on their ideals, the better chance they get a their candidate through at the end. Doesn't help that the only two parties that matter run more or less private primaries.

I honestly think I'm starting tap out of the whole "meta-politics" over how other people should be casting their votes. "Don't split, split, don't split, split."

Plus the President is dual role figure head and leader of the world's largest military. Just imagine finding someone that is the best fit for that role... all while half the institutions that matter run circles around congress with lobbyists and do whatever they want regardless of what the Prez be doing.

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8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

 

Crimea was Russian ethnicity being 'protected' rather than Russian citizens per se. Crimea also had a big naval base (which was to have the lease to Russia cancelled and then be leased to... NATO) and a history of not wanting to be part of Ukraine per their votes to leave in 1991 and 1994-5.

[and since I mentioned it yesterday, the leaked engineering report on the Douma chlorine attack showing the cylinders were not dropped but were placed has been confirmed as genuine by the OPCW. Who, being a proud independent institution, are investigating it being leaked; and not it being suppressed in the first place...]

Yes, yes Zora as long as you dont use your normal approach of revisionist history and pseudo-geography to make the point that Crimea is part of Russia, its not. Its part of Ukraine and nothing will ever change that, so what Putin needs to do is return Crimea to Ukraine and stop thinking he can carve up countries to create some unnecessary " USSR " border because he is insecure about perceived NATO encroachment 

Failing that Russia will never get the important sanction relief they need to help there failing and weak economy, the Russia bear needs to respect international laws ...you know how it works ;)


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

 

as for chill... anybody may click the links. check list o' Gromnir posts. check yours. let'em decide. compare us to neville chamberlain? 

...

okie dokie.

HA! Good Fun!

I had to laugh at the Neville Chamberlain analogy, some comparisons people make of us to historical figures could be relevant but most  are tenuous at best but  egregiously inaccurate in most cases. This is one of them 


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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14 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Yes, yes Zora as long as you dont use your normal approach of revisionist history and pseudo-geography to make the point that Crimea is part of Russia, its not. Its part of Ukraine and nothing will ever change that, so what Putin needs to do is return Crimea to Ukraine and stop thinking he can carve up countries to create some unnecessary " USSR " border because he is insecure about perceived NATO encroachment 

Failing that Russia will never get the important sanction relief they need to help there failing and weak economy, the Russia bear needs to respect international laws ...you know how it works ;)

Ok, genuinely curious.... why exactly do you claim that Crimea belongs to Ukraine? What kind of justification would be behind that other than "Ukraine says so!"?

As for history and revisionism... It originally belonged to the Tatars and later Moscow until Ukraine claimed it at the dissolution of the Soviet Union 1991 (**** started hitting the fan when Ukraine forgot about their promises about Crimean autonomy in 1995 (in return for the Crimean's acknowledging the government in Kiev's sovereignty).


“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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7 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Ok, genuinely curious.... why exactly do you claim that Crimea belongs to Ukraine? What kind of justification would be behind that other than "Ukraine says so!"?

As for history and revisionism... It originally belonged to the Tatars and later Moscow until Ukraine claimed it at the dissolution of the Soviet Union 1991 (**** started hitting the fan when Ukraine forgot about their promises about Crimean autonomy in 1995 (in return for the Crimean's acknowledging the government in Kiev's sovereignty).

Very good question, I am really arguing the flawed referendum that Putin created to " decide if Crimea should be part of Russia". Its synonymous with a pattern of how Russia has created this old USSR border and carved up other countries like Georgia to suit them 

Here is a good article that summarizes this and highlights the legal argument but yes you  right, my historical argument is not the best way to make my point  

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/crimean-referendum-illegal-international-law

But just for interest, Tartars outside Ukraine were excluded from the vote. There were also only 2 choice and neither one was " stay part of the Ukraine " 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/crimeas-technically-flawe_b_4992908

 


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I had to laugh at the Neville Chamberlain analogy, some comparisons people make of us to historical figures could be relevant but most  are tenuous at best but  egregiously inaccurate in most cases. This is one of them 

is it so? Why? I think it pretty much demonstrate someone who was choosing 'lesser evil' to get bitten in the ass by it. If he would stand by morals there would not be WW2

Edited by Chilloutman

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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1 hour ago, Chilloutman said:

is it so? Why? I think it pretty much demonstrate someone who was choosing 'lesser evil' to get bitten in the ass by it. If he would stand by morals there would not be WW2

so weird. possible the first time we referenced neville chamberlain in 15 years on the board and very next day chill sees need to confront us with, o' all things, a wiki entry for chamberlain.

but chill is correct, in late 1980s, during a cpl playoff game, we did repeated stay back in our two-deep assignment rather than sneaking up to stop the run. team got torched multiple times for big ground gains late in a close game. we were so concerned 'bout giving up the big play that we got burned for multiple ten and fifteen yard runs... enough to set up game winning field goal for opponents as it turns out.

*insert shame-faced emoji here*

if chill sees parallel elsewhere, am baffled...

regardless, we do recommend folks clicking on the links we provided to see chill were not only wrong 'bout Gromnir frequency o' indulgence, but evidencing his own obvious hypocrisy.  momentary amusing, if tedious exercise.

serious though, neville chamberlain? 

HA! Good Fun!


"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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so funny


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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2 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

is it so? Why? I think it pretty much demonstrate someone who was choosing 'lesser evil' to get bitten in the ass by it. If he would stand by morals there would not be WW2

Well, might have been one, just a change of start date.  People compromise all the time, without that you end up having zealot v zealot like what the US is seeming like sometimes.


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/white-house-unveils-new-tool-to-report-censorship-by-social-media-giants

"Yet too many Americans have seen their accounts suspended, banned, or fraudulently reported for unclear 'violations' of user policies. No matter your views, if you suspect political bias caused such an action to be taken against you, share your story with President Trump."

Guess he wants to hear from every asshat edgelord about how they were banned from a forum :lol:

 

 

 


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Just watched a hilarious two year old video of our (now) vice chancellor and his party's floor leader sitting in a Russian owned villa on Ibiza discussing the acquisition of our largest newspaper, installing journalists that favor them and telling them freely of company and non-profit association constructs that would allow them to funnel funds into their party without them noticed - for bonus hilarity mentioning large companies and investors that already do (most prominent among them Glock apparently) - and promising overpriced construction contracts assuming the discussed funds and activities would land them an election victory resulting in them heading or being part of the government.

I'm not entirely sure why this wasn't released prior to our 2017 parliament elections instead of now a week before the EU ones but whatever gets these two grubby, greedy buttholes out of our government and ideally behind bars is all right with me.

I always knew these guys weren't the sharpest tools in the shed but discussing how to best use dirty money for six hours while being utterly embarassing in the process is more than a little sad. In German we have a really nice word for what I'm feeling right now: Fremdschämen. Meaning - literally - to be ashamed for/instead of someone else because these people obviously have no shame at all. Or any decency.

Hey Visegrád countries, you sure you want to be associated with these fumbducks? :p

Here be an English article in the Financial Times.

Edited by majestic
Added link.
  • Like 1

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3 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/white-house-unveils-new-tool-to-report-censorship-by-social-media-giants

"Yet too many Americans have seen their accounts suspended, banned, or fraudulently reported for unclear 'violations' of user policies. No matter your views, if you suspect political bias caused such an action to be taken against you, share your story with President Trump."

Guess he wants to hear from every asshat edgelord about how they were banned from a forum :lol:

 

 

 

I guess Sharpie is going to visit Trump to reveal the censorship of the obsidian forums.


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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7 hours ago, 213374U said:

Most Notre Dame pledges have not yet been honoured.

Anyone surprised? I wonder to what extent a donation pledge that isn't honoured entitles the donor to the tax breaks applicable under French law.

Most of the wealthy families will definitely commit to what they committed to  for several reasons 

I apologize if what I am about to say is offensive or condescending, I really dont mean to be, but the reason why you are cynical about this money is you dont  understand or care about  healthy patriotism or a belief in the importance of things that are historically significant

Notre Dame is France and France is Notre Dame, the money and tax breaks become meaningless if symbols like this cannot be restored because of a lack of money. France is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a rich and important history, Notre Dame is part of this. What is the point of having money if you will not spend it on your own families legacy

You would be correct if the French somehow didnt care about the future of there children and that doesn't make sense 😎🛒

 

 

 


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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53 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

I guess Sharpie is going to visit Trump to reveal the censorship of the obsidian forums.

"Yet too many Americans have seen their accounts.. "

Sharpie ain't american, so he'll have to visit Bolton or Eliot Abrams and try to get a coup organised instead.

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5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

bovine excrement

bluh bluh

pony up or stfu, uncle scrooge

  • Hmmm 1

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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14 hours ago, 213374U said:

Most Notre Dame pledges have not yet been honoured.

Anyone surprised? I wonder to what extent a donation pledge that isn't honoured entitles the donor to the tax breaks applicable under French law.

For a second, before I checked the link (and also saw GDs post), I thought you meant the college and was a bit confused. Just me being tired here  

Would be useful if the article said what pledges weren’t being honored. 

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10 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/white-house-unveils-new-tool-to-report-censorship-by-social-media-giants

"Yet too many Americans have seen their accounts suspended, banned, or fraudulently reported for unclear 'violations' of user policies. No matter your views, if you suspect political bias caused such an action to be taken against you, share your story with President Trump."

Guess he wants to hear from every asshat edgelord about how they were banned from a forum :lol:

 

 

 

I can see that backfiring on them, heh, what they really want are conservatives, but it’ll get flooded with both. 

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2 hours ago, 213374U said:

bluh bluh

pony up or stfu, uncle scrooge

Im unclear on what you suggesting in this post. My initial reading is I should, or my family should, contribute funds towards the  restoration of Notre Dame?

We are not French and my family in the UK  are English. Some of my family in the UK have donated  towards supporting important  UK  historical projects through NGO like maintaining  WW1 sites . For example this Delville wood memorial we have always assisted with maintaining through private funding as do many other South Africans  

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/somme/memorial-delville-wood.htm


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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