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6 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Ok, please repeat again (as simple as you can): what's the problem with Vanishing Strike?

Vanishing Strike gives you an invisibility that doesn't break when you attack. So every attack roll will get Backstab bonus. That means an AoE weapon will produce lots of Backstabs.

Old Backstab: not a huge problem because AoE hits have very low base damage. Old Backstab uses base damage (+100%).

New Backstab adds flat damage (20 raw) and is not based on weapon base damage.

Now if you do 10 AoE hits they all will add 20+ raw damage. No matter how low their base damage is. And you can repeat that as long as Vanishing Strike is active. 

 

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Vanishing Strike gives you an invisibility that doesn't break when you attack. So every attack roll will get Backstab bonus. That means an AoE weapon will produce lots of Backstabs.

Old Backstab: not a huge problem because AoE hits have very low base damage. Old Backstab uses base damage (+100%).

New Backstab adds flat damage (20 raw) and is not based on weapon base damage.

Now if you do 10 AoE hits they all will add 20+ raw damage. No matter how low their base damage is. And you can repeat that as long as Vanishing Strike is active.

Ok, and what are you suggest?

Edited by Phenomenum
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2 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Ok, and what are you suggest?

Nothing yet. I just asked if that's a problem for you guys or not.

One solution could be that Backstab only works on the initial target. On the other hand we already have the 2m-rule which prevents too much AoE cheese. And you told me that blunderbusses only trigger Backstab once (not 4 times).

So now I lean to "All cool - sorry for interrupting"? ;)

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Oh and by the way I will be on vacation again from Fryday till Monday. Just if you wonder where that annoying Theorizer is. 😛

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8 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

One question: have you tried to fight against an enemies with 2 or more arquebuse rogues on low-mid levels? I bet you will be one-shotted with 200% bonus.

No, but I have tested an arquebus assassin and an arquebus holy slayer seperately with the 200% bonus (which the holy slayer won't have access to in the community patch release due to PL) in high level encounters - keep in mind that I wouldn't expect +200% at low-mid level, only at PL 10. It takes about 3-4 shots from stealth to kill most enemies (you can actually abuse red hand's two shots by hitting smoke veil right after the first), but of course there are some enemies with low armor that you can score harder hits on. Even so, +200% isn't that much better on an arquebus than +150%, and since you don't feel the full benefit until later levels it really doesn't feel OP. Most of my tests have been at level 16-20.

For me, the unmodded assassin is underpowered (exception: assassin/evoker, but that doesn't make much use of backstab) when compared to other single-target DPS classes, slightly less so once vanishing strike is available. But that's quite late game and usually only nets 2 backstabs unless you're using light weapons, and those don't benefit much more from the extra +50%. If 200% seems too high compared to 150%, what about giving a backstab bonus to assassins only the way tricksters get a unique sneak attack malus?

This is probably getting a little too creative for the confines of the poll, but what about tying sneak attack and backstab to subclass? Assassin > Debonair > Streetfighter/Vanilla > Trickster? It's late, I'm probably giving it too much thought 😅

All I can say is that I've tested +200% on a level 20 assassin using dual sabres, axes with modal, and arquebus - and it feels right for both the level and the class role compared to other martials/martial multis at the same level. If you have time to test it out, I'd love to hear what you think.  

 

Edited by Purudaya
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Now a question regarding a special priestly trinket (which I currently write):

We talked about how it would be cool to have Inspiring Radiance/Aggrandizing Radiance/Brilliant Radiance as well as Painful Interdiction and Empowered (it's the PoE name!) Interdiction back.

My question now: how do we want to do that (mechanically)? In PoE they were passive talents that upgraded your Holy Radiance and Interdiction abilites. So you could upgrade Holy Radiance with Inspiring Radiance (+10 ACC AoE buff) AND Aggrandizing Radiance (caster stat buff) AND Brilliant Radiance (damage buff) for example.

Solution A: If I would simply add Inspiring Radiance etc. as additional spells that would not allow to combine those effects as in PoE. You could either cast Inspiring Radiance OR Aggrandizing Radiance at one time. You couldn't have both effects in one spell cast. But it would be the simplest solution.

Solution B: I could add those abilities as passives to the trinket, but then you would get them ALL as soon as you equip it - which also doesn't feel right.

Solution C : I don't know if that's actually possible, but maybe the best way would be to unlock those passives that upgrade Holy Radiance and Interdiction at certain Power Levels. So for example get the passive "Inspiring Radiance" as soon as you reach PL2, get Aggrandizing Radiance at PL 3 and Brilliant at PL 4 and so on. Is that even possible to mod?

Can you help me? @Phenomenum, @MaxQuest? I need to know what's actually possible before I waste a lot of time... :)

Edit: just realized Solution D could be a thing:

Give spells at certain Power Levels that just do the same as the spell at lower PLs plus a new upgrade. So for example:

  1. Interdiction
  2. Inspiring Radiance (like Holy Radiance but adds a +10 ACC AoE buff)
  3. Empowered Interdiction (like Interdiction but has +10 ACC)
  4. Aggrandizing Radiance (like Inspiring Radiance but adds +2 to all stats for the Priest)
  5. Painful Interdiction (like Empowered Interdiction but adds Weakening)
  6. Brilliant Radiance (like Aggrandizing Radiance but adds burn damage)

Wouldn't that be the easiest/best solution? 

 

Edited by Boeroer

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If the PL-based unlocking is on the table, it gets my vote.

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Solution D is also not bad: you'll have way more spells at your disposal. So you can choose to only cast Interdiction (PL1) but also Painful Interdiction (PL5).

With unlocking passives you'd only have that one Interdiction spell to cast (max twice per enc.).

I made this quick draft to illustrate:

-----------------------------------------------

Name: Building on Solid Foundations

Appearance: journal 

Description: This essay refers to the well known book „Daily Affirmations of Focus and Efficiency“  that is very popular among followers of Abydon. It describes certain excercises and techniques that allow priests to improve and refine some of their basic abilites.  

Contained spells

  1. Interdiction
  2. Inspiring Radiance (Holy Radiance +10 ACC AoE buff)
  3. Empowered Interdiction (Interdiction +10 ACC bonus)
  4. Aggrandizing Radiance (Inspiring Radiance with +2 to all caster‘s stats)
  5. Painful Interdiction (Empowered Interdiction +weaken)
  6. Brilliant Radiance (Aggrandizing +burn damage)
  7. Intimidating Interdiction (Painful Interdiction +frighten)
  8. Reviving Radiance (Brilliant Radiance +revive like Revive the Fallen, but AoE)
  9. Anathema (Intimidating Interdiction +disoriented)

------------------------------------------------

 

Edited by Boeroer

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Works for me :)

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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54 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Solution C : I don't know if that's actually possible, but maybe the best way would be to unlock those passives that upgrade Holy Radiance and Interdiction at certain Power Levels. So for example get the passive "Inspiring Radiance" as soon as you reach PL2, get Aggrandizing Radiance at PL 3 and Brilliant at PL 4 and so on. Is that even possible to mod?

This.

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Ok, nice. But is this preferable to Solution D where you actually get the same - but more spell variety?

So basically:

C -->

  • one cast max of Holy Radiance per encounter; upgrades with passives, competes with nothing
  • two casts max per encounter of Interdiction; upgrades with passives, competes with other PL1 spells

D -->

  • one cast of Holy Radiance per encounter; doesn't upgrade, competes with nothing
  • two casts of Interdiction; competes with other PL 1 spells
  • two casts of Inspiring Radiance; competes with other PL 2 spells
  • two casts of Empowered Interdiction; competes with other PL 3
  • and so on

If C is y'alls' preferred method than I'm totally fine with it. Just want to make sure everybody understood what Solution D means. :)

Edited by Boeroer
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30 minutes ago, Boeroer said:
  • two casts of Inspiring Radiance; competes with other PL 2 spells
  • two casts of Empowered Interdiction; competes with other PL 3

Too many cats. Casts. Trinket should just upgrade spells effects like it was in PoE 1

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So I'm not actually sure if you understand what I mean.

Solution D would not add those spells as additional casts but like Grimoires: as bonus spells which you "can" cast - but it costs a spell use like any other spell.

So... what do you mean with too many casts? It's 2 casts per PL as always with priests.  You wouldn't get more casts out of your priest but would have to choose between upgraded  Interdiction/Radiance and the other spells of that PL.

Wasn't the whole point of trinkets to add more spell choice? ;)

But as I said: if the passive version is preferred that's also fine. Is more like PoE. But it doesn't help with the "spell railroading" that we wanted to remove with trinkets in the first place. Just saying...

 

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10 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

So I'm not actually sure if you understand what I mean.

Maybe) Was too busy with Frermas icon. Ok, i understand.

Technically, i can add a hidden keyword to Radiance and Interdiction attacks. Then add ability to Trinket with "Attack target on event" type status effect, which contain a Radiance/Interdiction keyword. Next, when you are using Radiance/Interdiction with Trinket equipped, this status effect triggers additional attack, which apply additional status effect.

Every ability adds additional status effect. For example:

Aggrandizing Radiance is PL 2 ability, and triggers +2 All Attributes SE
Inspiring Radiance is PL 4 ability and additionally triggers +10 Acc (so we have +2 All Attributes and +10 Acc)
Bla-bla-bla Radiance is PL 6 ability and additionally triggers something else (so we have +2 All Attributes and +10 Acc and "Something Else")

This is what i can do. So there's some technical limitations regarding implementation of this upgrades. Understand?

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3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Can you help me? @Phenomenum, @MaxQuest? I need to know what's actually possible before I waste a lot of time... :)

A. I'm ok with this approach. The idea that you would cast a specific upgrade depending on situation is nice. But I don't yet know how to make the OR part in: "ou could either cast Inspiring Radiance OR Aggrandizing Radiance at one time"

B. Indeed, doesn't feel right. Unless the trinket provides just 1 radiance upgrade.

C. I'm ok with this approach. But I don't know if this is possible. On the other hand can imagine some sort of upgrade where the trinket itself is substituted with a better version; although... don't know how to trigger it. Edit: if Pheno knows how to implement it: great)

D. I like this approach less than C, but at least know how to do it.


P.S. There could be also a lazy option E: Radiance gets a single upgrade X. Interdiction gets a single upgrade Y (e.g. painful).
P.P.S. Also... such upgrages could be added to priest talents table.

Edited by MaxQuest
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I see the ease of adding all of these to one trinket or as passive talents, but I actually think putting different passive improvements to these on several trinkets is preferred. Imagine multiple priest trinkets adding a different effect to radiance or interdiction. You would have to choose between them (no stacking), but if the bonuses fit the flavor of the trinket, I think that's a cool choice. It also simplifies the other design choices around trinkets, because we wanted some passive effects that weren't just bonus spells. 

Passive talents creates a worse problem for the priest in terms of railroading, since there are even fewer points to spend on less desirable spells. 

I don't think bringing back all of the PoE1 talents is needed, either. Some of them were pretty bland. +ACC on interdiction, for example. 

Trinket 1 - Condemnation   

  • Gain 2-4 Condemnation spells at various levels
  • Condemnation spells gain +3 PL
  • Interdiction becomes per encounter and now also Weakens
  • Inspiration spells cast at -5 PL

Trinket 2 - Inspiration

  • Gain Inspiration spells at various levels
  • Inspiration spells gain +5 PL (since it's only duration here, no healing or DMG, right?)
  • Holy Radiance gives +10 Acc for 8 seconds 
  • Condemnation abilities have reduced accuracy -10

Trinket 3 - Selfish Priest

  • Holy Radiance now gives +4 all stats to Priest, but does not heal others, 15 sec duration
  • +25% healing received for duration of buff (including Holy Radiance heal)
  • -50% area of effect for all Inspiration and Restoration spells for duration of buff

Trinket 4 - Punishment

  • Holy Radiance now also deals burn DMG to all enemies (more to vessels)
  • Gain bonus Punishment spells
  • +2 Punishment PL
  • -50% healing done
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If you'd gain a passive via trinket you wouldn't need to put a point into it. It would work as soon as you switch to that trinket. So no raillroading problem. Also it's no problem to put  some additional (like Holy Meditation and whatnot) spells to that trinket.

You trinket examples are good. But as you said the downside is that you'd never be able to combine Inspiring with Aggrandizing Radiance. Most likely you wouldn't even cast two of them in one encounter since it would be the same spell (level) basically.

So in terms of "power" this would be one of the weaker solutions. 

As MaxQuest said: another approach would be to actually add those things as "real" passives - but then what you said becomes true: would take away even more points from spell selection. 

So I'm for C or D at the Moment. Leaning a bit to D because C's implementation sounds a bit fiddly and not so trivial while D is just adding some new spells per Copy&Paste and altering them.

Edited by Boeroer

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That's my bad - I understand the options better. If it's simply a passive that comes with the trinket, that's great. I don't like the idea of having a passive added to the trees that you have to spend a point on. 

I'm with you on the power aspect, and I'm on board for one trinket that really juices up radiance or Interdiction. I think option D is pretty good and I wouldn't be upset if that's how we do it. Needing to use a spell cast from another spell level feels a little off to me, though I'm with you in it being a simple implementation. I understand the experience and power level of getting all the upgrades in 1 cast at higher levels, but if it uses a spell cast, we then have to design these to compete with other spells at that level. If it isn't compelling, then it won't be used, if it's too compelling, then it causes a similar problem as the current "too good" priest spells. Designing "new" abilities feels out of scope for this mod vs. updating existing ones. 

Something I like about Radiance is that it's per encounter and can be used every encounter without costing the use of something else. It's balanced around that, but with some investment in talents in PoE1, it could become really strong. In this case, with some investment in a trinket, it can become stronger, but doesn't cause the extra problems of competing with other casts. If we can turn interdiction into a similar ability, I think that's worth it's own trinket. 

What about something more like the Undying Burden, in terms of granting another cast of the same per encounter, but also juicing up all casts? Would that be too powerful? Choose two of these to keep?

Glowing Sermon Page (St. Rumbalt flavor text)

  • Brilliant Radiance: your Holy Radiance now deals a small amount of fire DMG to all enemies (Vessels hit are knocked down) 
  • Gain ability: Aggrandizing Radiance - once per encounter, duplicates almost all the effects of Holy Radiance (including burn DMG, disposition check, etc.), but grants +4 to each attribute to the priest for 10 seconds and does not heal allies. 
  • Gain ability: Inspiring Radiance - once per encounter, duplicates almost all the effects of Holy Radiance (including burn DMG, disposition check, etc.), but gives allies +10 Acc for 8 seconds

For Interdiction, I think a separate trinket is better. It's always been a talent choice, and it fits with a different style of priest than Holy Radiance. We can combine the PoE1 traits along with some "style" boosts to similar abilities via PL buff. 

Singed Scrap of Cloth (flavor text around Durance)

  • Searing Words: +5 PL with Condemnation spells, your critical hits with Condemnation spells lower target Burn AR by 4. 
  • Gain ability: Painful Interdiction - once per encounter, as interdiction, but also Weakens targets, +5 Accuracy (10 total with PL boost)
  • Rough around the edges: -5 PL with Inspiration and Restoration spells and abilities
Edited by Ivanfyodorovich
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