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I wonder if gray area is fair for something like Trickster SA - it's IMO the most blatant nerf being proposed and I think the threshold for a nerf ought to be lower than a buff. Really need some sort of control group measure for a thing like that.

 

How would the 25% pass apply to keywords? Currently they all pass but they had a lower response rate and there was no option to disagree with all of them. Given that not clicking them was the disagree, and that they have a lower total response rate, it's very possible that at least one participant out of the total 81 simply disagreed with all the keyword changes and didn't click any to express that. It would push a couple of the Priest's 75.9% keywords into the gray zone if the theoretical complete keywords disagreer had been marked in the total.

 

I should have thought of that when I was critiquing the poll structure - there are a few different ways to avoid the "non-participation is indistinguishable from total disagreement" dilemma.

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I'm surprised there's so much unanimity behind the suggestion to add trinkets for Priests and Druids. I understand the motivation, but Grimoires feel like the Wizards' differentiating characteristic: if that becomes shared then they're quite a bland class relative to the others. My perspective would be to enhance the unique aspect Priests (free spells from other classes based on deity) and Druids (shapeshifting) already get rather than simply sharing the Wizards' aspect.

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I'm not sure how many voters it influenced but in the discussion thread the stance on trinkets was that they would do stuff like give +2 Condemnation PL or an extra spirit shift use rather than be an exact copy of grimoires. Some limited extra spells too but I don't think anyone wanted the full 1-9 on a single trinket.

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Correct. Expand the spell portfolio a bit (what grimoires do which makes wizards so much more flexible - but to a lesser extend). Could also be from different classes or entirely new ones. And then some more unique stuff like a bonus spells use here and a PL bonus there.

Like a Prayerbook that contains only prayers and litanies and gives a fitting bonus to them and so on.

 

The whole discussion is that the big drawback of Priests and Druids compared to Wizards is that you are kind of forced to forgo certain situational spells if you don't want to gimp yourself. In PoE you didn't have that problem because Priests and Druids got all their spells unlocked at once while the Wizard had to learn them at level up. The Wizard compensated with a lot bigger selection of spells and grimoires.

 

In Deadfire all three have to learn them BUT wizards get grimoires ALTHOUGH they don't have a disadvantage anymore. They keep the enormous spell selection and at the same time Priests and Druids lose their advantage. And then the grimoires allow you to not even pick a single spell at lvl-up and not be gimped at all as soon as you get some grimoires. That indeed seperates them from the other two - but it's also highly unbalanced and unfair - now that P&D lost their advantage of PoE's "auto-learn".

Edited by Boeroer
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Correct. Expand the spell portfolio a bit (what grimoires do which makes wizards so much more flexible - but to a lesser extend). Could also be from different classes or entirely new ones. And then some more unique stuff like a bonus spells use here and a PL bonus there.

Like a Prayerbook that contains only prayers and litanies and gives a fitting bonus to them and so on.

 

The whole discussion is that the big drawback of Priests and Druids compared to Wizards is that you are kind of forced to forgo certain situational spells if you don't want to gimp yourself. In PoE you didn't have that problem because Priests and Druids got all their spells unlocked at once while the Wizard had to learn them at level up. The Wizard compensated with a lot bigger selection of spells and grimoires.

 

In Deadfire all three have to learn them BUT wizards get grimoires ALTHOUGH they don't have a disadvantage anymore. They keep the enormous spell selection and at the same time Priests and Druids lose their advantage. And then the grimoires allow you to not even pick a single spell at lvl-up and not be gimped at all as soon as you get some grimoires. That indeed seperates them from the other two - but it's also highly unbalanced and unfair - now that they lost their advantage of PoE's "auto-learn".

 

Although certainly a step down from automatically learning all spells at level-up, Priests and Druids do still get the advantage of a free spell at each level, somewhat of their choice due to deity selection. But I take your point, Wizards certainly have the edge in flexibility via Grimoires.

 

But isn't that the crux of the class? If the problem is overall class power, I'm sure there are other ways to make Priests and Druids stronger without giving every caster access to all class spells at most points in the game. It certainly feels bad to choose spells over passives, for obvious reasons, but that seems like the choice the developers wanted players to make. Flexibility versus strength.

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Well the point is not exactly power.

It's the "railroading" in spell choice that Priests and Druids face now. There are always certain spells on a Power Level that are not as generally useful as others - and thus there's nearly zero motivation to take those inferior or more situational spells. Wizard completely circumvents that with grimoires which gives him a huge advantage in Deadfire. Those single bonus spells you get as a Priest and Druid hardly balance the whole grimoire mechanics out. While they are nice, they simply can't.

So, giving the Priest a trinket with some (few) situational "themed" spell selections may enable you to have themed builds (see Prayerbook) - without gimping them - seems like a good idea. It's still not the versatiltiy of a Wizard. But combined with the bonus spells from deity it's enough.

 

Especially one thing motivates me to oush trinkets: the fact that devs wanted to give special trinket mechanics to every class but couldn't do so because they ran out of time. Well this hurts Priests and Druids the most.

So the main point is variety of char development options, roleplaying and building interesting stuff that's not always the same-same in order to be good.

The fewer "bonus" spells on such a trinket and the other bonuses instead (like power level bonus or spell uses and whatnot) are there to make them distinct from grimoires. Because you are correct that it would be a little bland to simply copy them.

But at the same time we should keep it simple enough.

Edit: my stupid phone's douchy autocorrect is killing me.

Edited by Boeroer
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I wonder if gray area is fair for something like Trickster SA - it's IMO the most blatant nerf being proposed and I think the threshold for a nerf ought to be lower than a buff.

After a discussion with Phenomenum, there is an idea to create a mod that would have two versions: Conservative and Extended. Extended version will include this Trickster nerf.

 

I should have thought of that when I was critiquing the poll structure - there are a few different ways to avoid the "non-participation is indistinguishable from total disagreement" dilemma.

That was the point behind the preliminary poll. To spot the potential missreads and stuff like that.

 

That said, I've included a note at the begining of the poll, that you can ignore a suggestion if you don't have a strong opinion on it.

Also, let's say if someone has voted at least for one priest keyword and didn't check any other priest keywords, the poll would treat those unchecked as votes against.

 

How would the 25% pass apply to keywords?

Those 25% were my personal oppinion on a threshold for general and class-specific suggestions, that could be used to "spot"/prioritize really welcomed suggestions.

 

Keywords is a different domain. I'm ok with results, and leave it to Phenomenum's discretion since he's been into that topic for quite a while.

 

I'm surprised there's so much unanimity behind the suggestion to add trinkets for Priests and Druids. I understand the motivation, but Grimoires feel like the Wizards' differentiating characteristic

Every grimoire is a trinket. But not every trinket is a grimoire)

 

Also, I am still interested in detailed examples of what trinkets do players want to see in the game.

Edited by MaxQuest
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i'm not a big fan of this priest/druid trinket idea tbh... those 2 classes feel bad in deadfire because their initial design for poe1 was to have a lot of situational support spells, but as you unlocked everything as you leveled up, it wasn't an issue and you ended up with a class that had a lot of options for different situations.

 

In deadfire, the spell pool is almost the same (RIP prayers), but we have to select only a few of them, while having in mind that we went from a "per rest" to "per encounter" system, meaning each spell selected has to be useful in most situations, which basically means goodbye situationnal spells, and is miles away from the initial class design (from low spell usage frequency / high impact to using a spell every action).

 

people say they want trinkets for these 2 classes because they want PoE1 options back, but on a flawed fundation... it's a bandage. I think druid and priest need a larger rework than just trinkets...

Not only their ressource/available spells, but also the spells themselves...

 

I mean yes trinkets would give those classes more spells and make those classes "better" (which litteraly anything would do considering their state), but to me it feels like a cheap fix compared to what a proper rework could bring.

Edited by anishar
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Example for trinkets:

 

Priest:

  • Sermon of Punishment and Redemption
    • Appearance: scroll, book or bulla
    • Description: Saint Rumbalt was among the first of the Eothasian pilgrims to take up the Emperor's offer of resettlement in the distant territory of Readceras. A dedicated priest of the Shining God, Rumbalt was regarded as a leader in his community, known both for his unwavering dedication to his congregation and his stern vigilance against lapses in doctrine. What survives of his sermons reflects this duality, for he emphasized the redemptive power of the faith even as he warned against the dire punishments awaiting those who rejected Eothas' beneficence.
    • Effects:
      • +1 PL to all Punishment spells
      • contained spells:
        1. Barbs of Condemnation
        2. Pillar of Faith
        3. Divine Mark
        4. Shining Beacon
        5. Searing Seal
        6. Pillar of Holy Fire
        7. Storm of Holy Fire
        8. Symbol of Eothas
        9. Light of Eothas
  • Dyrwooden Prayerbook
    • Appearance: book
    • Description: <bla>
    • Effects:
      • +3 PL to Prayers and Litanies (possible? Else +1 PL to all Protection Inspiration <after correction of keywords> spells)
      • contained spells:
        1. -
        2. Prayer for the Body
        3. Prayer for the Spirit
        4. Litany fot the Body
        5. Litany for the Spirit
        6. -
        7. -
        8. -
        9. His Heart Did Fill With the Light of the Dawn
  • Finger of Death
    • Appearance: a skeletal finger
    • Description: A remnant of Lord Raedric. During your rule in Caed Nua, a peasant brought you this piece of finger bone and insisted that it's the finger of the Deathguard Lord Raedric whom you slew twice. 
    • Effects:
      • - 5 CON, +5 RES
      • gives the wearer the passive ability "Come Sweet Winds of Death"
      • contained spells:
        1. Kalakoth's Sunless Grasp
        2. -
        3. Necrotic Lance
        4. -
        5. Death Ring
        6. -
        7. Touch of Death
        8. -
        9. Cloak of Death
Edited by Boeroer
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I mean yes trinkets would give those classes more spells and make those classes "better" (which litteraly anything would do considering their state), but to me it feels like a cheap fix compared to what a proper rework could bring.

You are right - but the thing is that we don't try to discuss complete overhauls and "proper" reworks here - that's something for PoE3. We try to find solutions for Deadfire that help to solve a problem but at the same time are very easy to implement. Else there is zero chance that it will be a) adopted by Obsidian (if there is a chance in the first place) or b) be moddable without too much fuzz.

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The +3 PL with prayers and litanies could be done by adding new keywords: Prayer, Litany. Although that will conflict with other mods that change keywords for these spells. The rest is also doable.

 

P.S. I like the concept of Finger of Death. Would fit nicely some sort of Forbidden Fist of Woedica who maxes resolve. And thematically is great for Vatnir as well. But I guess the AoE of soft winds can be decreased from 4m to 2.5m? And it should not count towards phrase gathering?

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Haven't been here for a while.

 

The main problem with games like Deadfire is the new generation caring less about our beloved genre, preferring something like Fortnite / Apex Legens etc...

 

As a result -> no real money support for the devs -> no real support for the game.

It's frustrating a bit to see how the whole D&D legacy is slowly dying, but I hope it will keep living in our hearts.

 

Would you be so kind to quick update me - is turn based Deadfire still with crucial bugs / glitches?

Done this with Moon Godlike Wizard

q22yrpP.png

Perebor steam

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^ The v4.1 has added the Turn Base mode. And we are still waiting for v4.2 that would bring TB out of beta and fix the newly introduced bugs; and hopefully even some of more lasting ones.

Edited by MaxQuest
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^ The v4.1 has added the Turn Base mode. And we are still waiting for v4.2 that would bring TB out of beta and fix the newly introduced bugs; and hopefully even some of more lasting ones.

Thanks, seems I'll have to wait for that v4.2 to give it a full dedicated run.

Done this with Moon Godlike Wizard

q22yrpP.png

Perebor steam

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The +3 PL with prayers and litanies could be done by adding new keywords: Prayer, Litany. Although that will conflict with other mods that change keywords for these spells. The rest is also doable.

 

P.S. I like the concept of Finger of Death. Would fit nicely some sort of Forbidden Fist of Woedica who maxes resolve. And thematically is great for Vatnir as well. But I guess the AoE of soft winds can be decreased from 4m to 2.5m? And it should not count towards phrase gathering?

Soft Winds was just an idea. I thought of a Deathguard-like aura. And then I scanned the classes for death-like abilites. If it's no problem to just copy&paste the data of the original chanter phrase, then tweak the values and apply it as a modal or passive aura - cool! :)

 

+3 PL to Prayers and Litanies sounds like too much fuzz then. I just also realized that if you get those spells via the trinket you will not pick them at level up. So why give +3 PL for Prayers and Litanies if you could just adjust the PL of the contained spells (like - mod them as 3 PL lower so they profit more from PL scaling than the original ones)? Wouldn't that be smarter? You could communicate this with a description like "the prayers and litanies (or simply "spells") from this book gain +3 PL".

 

 

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I suggest to hire Boeroer as our items designer. For food of course)

 

+3 PL to Prayers and Litanies sounds like too much fuzz then.

 

All Prayers and Litanies will be under Ispiration keyword. So i suggest do not add new KW for them. And for anything. Too much hustle

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Yes - as I said: one could simply alter the starting Power Levels of the contained abilites. Only to achieve a sort of "build-in" PL bonus and only for the spells in the trinket.

Since you would need to alter all "alien" spells (that are not part of the Priest class) anyways - for example place the correct priestly keywords - this would be too much trouble?

 

Or just a +1 or +2 bonus to all Inspirations (because the book is so inspiring ;)).

 

PS.: I would really like to play a "Champion of Berath" now: Priest of Berath, Voidwheel, Blackened Plate/Helm and the Finger of Death now!  :dancing:

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Yes - as I said: one could simply alter the starting Power Levels of the contained abilites. Only to achieve a sort of "build-in" PL bonus and only for the spells in the trinket.

Since you would need to alter all "alien" spells (that are not part of the Priest class) anyways - for example place the correct priestly keywords - this would be too much trouble?

 

Or just a +1 or +2 bonus to all Inspirations (because the book is so inspiring ;)).

 

PS.: I would really like to play a "Champion of Berath" now: Priest of Berath, Voidwheel, Blackened Plate/Helm and the Finger of Death now!  :dancing:

 

Totally forgot. "Houston, we have a problem". The problem name is Xoti Lantern, which gives +2 PL to Inspiration and Restoration KW and might be equipped as shield. I'm curious, if it will stack with trinkets? If not, then nothing to worry about.

 

And a second thing (just in case):

 

All class specific spells is a NATIVE priest's spells.

For example, Xoti have a Vile Thorns spell, but this is not a Level 1 druid spell, as you can imagine - it's a copy of druid's spell, named "Vile_Thorns_Gaun" with new ID and it's Level 3 spell with respective PL scaling. Same for all class specific priest's spell. That's why i was able to freely add priest-specific KW's to all "Wizard" and "Druid" spells for priests - it's will never affect on original Wizard and Druid spells.

 

In other words, Priests have their own spells, and Wizards/Druids have their own, even if concurrent names.

 

Just for the record (Max don't ever knew about this Obsidian trick until our recent chat).

Edited by Phenomenum
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I guess it does. All items buffs around Power Level seem to stack (Stone of Power's Power Surge for example).

 

But where's the harm? I mean if the trinket gives +1 to Inspiration there wouldn't be that much of a problem. +3 instead of +2 is not gamebreaking. Inspirations only gain duration with Power Levels, don't they?

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I guess it does. All items buffs around Power Level seem to stack (Stone of Power's Power Surge for example).

 

But where's the harm? I mean if the trinket gives +1 to Inspiration there wouldn't be that much of a problem. +3 instead of +2 is not gamebreaking. Inspirations only gain duration with Power Levels, don't they?

 

Yes, just we don't know exact PL bonus we will put on trinkets. If it will be +2 PL, then +4PL seems like "on OP edge". Becose i belive all trinkets should be accessible in the first 1/3 of game.

Edited by Phenomenum
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Soft Winds was just an idea. I thought of a Deathguard-like aura. And then I scanned the classes for death-like abilites. If it's no problem to just copy&paste the data of the original chanter phrase, then tweak the values and apply it as a modal or passive aura - cool! :)

Not a complete copy-paste.. but sort off)

And there is also Blackened Plate as inspiration, with it's Death in Life and Life in Death.

 

+3 PL to Prayers and Litanies sounds like too much fuzz then. I just also realized that if you get those spells via the trinket you will not pick them at level up. So why give +3 PL for Prayers and Litanies if you could just adjust the PL of the contained spells (like - mod them as 3 PL lower so they profit more from PL scaling than the original ones)? Wouldn't that be smarter? You could communicate this with a description like "the prayers and litanies (or simply "spells") from this book gain +3 PL".

Uhm, not quite.

 

There are two situations in this case:

1). Existing prayers and litanies get +3PL. Trinket contains references to these existing prayers and litanies.

- priest with that trinket: will benefit from those +3PL

- priest without that trinket: will also benefit from those +3PL (if he learns the spells)

 

2). Existing prayers and litanies are kept as is. For each one there is a copy created, with +3PL. Trinket contains references to these copies.

- priest with that trinket: will benefit from those +3PL. And if he also learns any of these, he will have duplicates in his action bar (one prayer with +3PL, one without)

- priest without that trinket: is unaffected

 

In either case there are problems; and in order to avoid them, I think it's easier:

 

- either to go for new keywords (Prayer, Litany) and let the trinket provide +3PL with those keywords. But that's a fuss with translation, and potential compatibility with keyword mods that also edit those prayers/litanies.

- or, just give +1 PL with all inspirations, as you have alternatively suggested. And I don't think there will be balance related problems due to +PL stacking (with Xoti's lantern, and so on), because it's just inspirations and not DoTs or some evoker stuff.

Edited by MaxQuest
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Yes, just we don't know exact PL bonus we will put on trinkets. If it will be +2 PL, then +4PL seems like "on OP edge". Becose i belive all trinkets should be accessible in the first 1/3 of game.

I agree. Else you can't really improve your basic char idea with them.

 

Bonuses will have to be tweaked of course. +4 really sounds a bit much even if it's only duration for Inspirations themselves and not much else. But there might be spells with the Inspiration keyword which have additional effects attached - which will then profit more from that PL boost. So we need to be extra careful not to accidentially create some OP stuff. Let's see...

 

For example: the "newly keyworded" Triumph of the Crusaders would have Restoration + Inspiration.

 

This means you could stack PLs from Restoration + Inspiration on Triumph otCs and the healing aspect would gain the same PL bonuses as the inspiration.

 

Let's say Xoti's Lantern + trinket = +2 to Restoration and +2 to Inspiration and the trinket +1 to Inspiration. TotCs has both keywords and thus would gain +5 PLs, right? That means that both the healing and the inspiration of TotCs gain the full scaling of 5 PLs (since PL bonuses on abilities don't seem to seperate between multiple effects). 

 

That sounds indeed too powerful. We have to be supercareful not to add too many keywords to a single ability - even it they seem to make sense - to prevent too much PL stacking AND we need to watch out when giving out PL bonuses with trinkets.

 

So I guess it's better to scale down the entry-PL of trinket-abilities if you want to give them a PL boost - instead of giving the trinket a PL boost to a keyword.

 

For example if you put a copy of  Prayer for the Body onto a trinket, better lower its "Entry-PL" from 2 to 0. That way it automatically has an "internal" +2 PL bonus. No entangling with other bonuses though. And while we are at it: they could also get new names like "St. Gormund's Prayer for the Body" - or something like that. :)

Edited by Boeroer

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2). Existing prayers and litanies are kept as is. For each one there is a copy created, with +3PL. Trinket contains references to these copies.

- priest with that trinket: will benefit from those +3PL. And if he also learns any of these, he will have duplicates in his action bar (one prayer with +3PL, one without)

- priest without that trinket: is unaffected

I think this is quite nice if you also give the copies a different name - like I wrote in my post above. Maybe even tint the icon a bit so that it has a different color (although that might be not so obvious for colorblind people). Or alter the icon slightly. But this may be too much work actually. Maybe it's not even possible to alter icons? But anyway: you would then have the learned spell "Prayer for the Body" and "St. Pumuckl's Prayer for the Body" side by side. While this might seem a bit odd, it wouldn't be much of a problem I think. Players would just ask themselves "Why should I ever use the worse one? Why did I even pick it in the first place?" ;)

 

And since I wrote above: we have to be supercareful with PL bonuses because of multiple keywords on one ability.

 

So maybe the "cleanest" and easiest solution is to put something else as bonus instead of Powerlevel.

 

Another question: if we would give Prayers and Litanies a "secret" keyword that we would invent... something like "123365_fsdfsdfdsf" - and hide it from the player but only use to boost PL of individual abilities - would that solve the problem which you mentioned (interfering with other mods that want to affect Prayers and so on)?

Edited by Boeroer

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