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I will, like most others here, preface this by saying I love Obsidian's games, I love the love that Obsidian pours into their projects, and I have the utmost respect for the devs/writers/artists/everyone pouring their passion and effort into making these works of art.

 

But, however much I love the games Obsidian makes, I do have principles, and I tend to stick by them. In this cases it boils down these three, simple reasons:

  • I will not support Epic Games' exclusivity bullsh1t;
  • I will not support Microsoft's bid to break Steam/Valve in order to lock down PC gaming;
  • I will not support Tencent's efforts in building their Chinese spyware dystopia.

 

After Microsoft buying them, I was very much expecting MS to come up with some sort of non-Steam exclusivity on upcoming games (but tbh I was expecting a 100% Windows Live Store (or w/e) exclusive).

Edited by Oter2k
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I will, like most others here, preface this by saying I love Obsidian's games, I love the love that Obsidian pours into their projects, and I have the utmost respect for the devs/writers/artists/everyone pouring their passion and effort into making these works of art.

 

But, however much I love the games Obsidian makes, I do have principles, and I tend to stick by them. In this cases it boils down these three, simple reasons:

  • I will not support Epic Games' exclusivity bullsh1t;
  • I will not support Microsoft's bid to break Steam/Valve in order to lock down PC gaming;
  • I will not support Tencent's efforts in building their Chinese spyware dystopia.

 

After Microsoft buying them, I was very much expecting MS to come up with some sort of non-Steam exclusivity on upcoming games (but tbh I was expecting a 100% Windows Live Store (or w/e) exclusive).

 

 

Uhhhh what?

 

Microsoft is releasing HALO of all franchises on Steam and is generally cool with their games  on other plattforms under their new strategy. They don’t try anymore to win the exclusive wars.

Edited by C2B
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Microsoft these days don't care where their games are as long as they're making money.   They're even releasing some of their games on the Nintendo Switch.

I was shocked to notice Cuphead coming out on the Switch.

nowt

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Nope. This has nothing to do with selling to MS. In fact, had they sold themselves to MS earlier, this wouldn't have happened (MS can rightfully sneer at Epic's exclusivity bribes).

 

This is Obsidian signing yet another bad publishing deal where they don't seem to have any grasp of what's in the contract, or set any real limits on the publisher. Its another live demonstration that Obsidian -needs- to be owned by another party, else they'll keep shooting themselves in the foot.

 

If we're really lucky the MS ownership will also mean less tolerance for shipping games as buggy messes.

 

I'm curious.

 

Did you by some miracle see EGS being a thing 3 years ago? Why would you have clauses on the game being on sold Steam (for PC) when that was the only platform the publisher would be willing to sell the game at that point.

They sure as **** weren't going to give 30% to EA/Origin or Ubisoft/Uplay. Those were the other storefronts back then and keep in mind Take-Two does not publish games on GOG either. That leaves.... Steam as the only option.

 

Did you see Epic throwing money at publishers for exlusive deals? Deals that actually make sense for the publisher since they are being guarenteed an amount of money and more publicity in the actual store than they could ever hope for on Steam. While idiots like you are blaming the developer for this, when it's the publisher. Private Division isn't taking a hit, because gamers are just clueless twats.

 

Did you see Private Division and in some ways Take-Two make a test run on their 3rd party games (Ancients, TOW and others) and how well they sell and what is the reaction from gamers, so they know what to do with their own games (GTA, RDR)?

 

You should reconsider naming yourself Captain Hindsight.

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This is incredibly disappointing. I've been an Obsidian customer for years and just about any RPG you put out is an auto-buy, but this does it. Not a fan of Epic's software or their business practices, and I won't be forced into supporting either for Outer Worlds. So long.

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Nope. This has nothing to do with selling to MS. In fact, had they sold themselves to MS earlier, this wouldn't have happened (MS can rightfully sneer at Epic's exclusivity bribes).

 

This is Obsidian signing yet another bad publishing deal where they don't seem to have any grasp of what's in the contract, or set any real limits on the publisher. Its another live demonstration that Obsidian -needs- to be owned by another party, else they'll keep shooting themselves in the foot.

 

If we're really lucky the MS ownership will also mean less tolerance for shipping games as buggy messes.

 

I'm curious.

 

Did you by some miracle see EGS being a thing 3 years ago? Why would you have clauses on the game being on sold Steam (for PC) when that was the only platform the publisher would be willing to sell the game at that point.

They sure as **** weren't going to give 30% to EA/Origin or Ubisoft/Uplay. Those were the other storefronts back then and keep in mind Take-Two does not publish games on GOG either. That leaves.... Steam as the only option.

 

Did you see Epic throwing money at publishers for exlusive deals? Deals that actually make sense for the publisher since they are being guarenteed an amount of money and more publicity in the actual store than they could ever hope for on Steam. While idiots like you are blaming the developer for this, when it's the publisher. Private Division isn't taking a hit, because gamers are just clueless twats.

 

Did you see Private Division and in some ways Take-Two make a test run on their 3rd party games (Ancients, TOW and others) and how well they sell and what is the reaction from gamers, so they know what to do with their own games (GTA, RDR)?

 

You should reconsider naming yourself Captain Hindsight.

Did you see me making ANY of those claims? No.

 

I simply said this is a continuation of obsidians past behavior is making bad publishing deals. This doesn't require Epic or MS or China. It just requires basic familiarity with the company and how things went with them of the kotor2 and fallout new Vegas deals. They took bad terms and got shafted for it. That it happened again despite their experience with prior bad deals is indeed their own damn fault, just as much as the publisher taking advantage of their continued legacy of idiocy.

 

Most competent devs in the industry can develop congenial relationships with a publisher for more than two rushed games. That obsidian can't and instead still rush to bad deals (despite the MS buyout looming when they signed with take 2) speaks poorly of them. It doesn't mean other parties are somehow innocent, just that this is consistent with company history.

 

And frankly, no one sane signs a publishing agreement that reads 'the publisher can do whatever they like without consultation and agreement with the dev" which is what you are arguing.

Edited by Voss
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1) If there are DRM free games on Steam, there are also DRM free games on EGS. In reality neither is DRM free (and no, a fan wiki does not count for anything) as both require a proprietary app for download and install; and you can't just decide to ignore that form of DRM because you like Steam. And no Galaxy ain't DRM since it's optional and all you need for GOG is a browser and an account.

 

2) GOG is inarguably better than steam, even if you go by the incorrect definition of DRM free only about 1 in 20 Steam games don't require steam running- 99.95% of GOG games don't require Galaxy (with the one exception being always online by its nature). Centralised MP makes drm irrelevant, as you have to be online and connected to the company's servers, that's just how it works- ie you cannot be offline to play centralised MP. DRM on LAN or direct connection etc would be a valid complaint though.

 

3) You own games on EGS exactly as much as you own them on Steam, ie you don't. It's the same everywhere, hence End User License Agreement rather than End User Ownership Agreement. In some cases the licensing cannot be enforced- physical media, GOG installer downloads, local law saying something is a good not a service- but you only own them practically, not legally.

 

4) They are induced exclusives, they're just bought in kind rather than as a guaranteed minimum sale figure. All those 'free' features steam offers are inducements to exclusivity every bit as much as a lump sum, they're just a different approach to it.

 

...and that's what's happening if people don't read:

 

1) Exactly! I was replying to: "[Epic] already have a better product [...:] no DRM"

 

2) Okay, I'll give you that. They are clearly better in terms of DRM, although not perfect. Thanks for completely misreading my argumentation, though.

 

3) Exactly. I was replying to: "[Epic] already have a better product in that you actually own the games you purchase"

 

4) Not my point. OP used a tu quoque and your points don't change the fact that Valve, as far as we know and in all likelihood[1], never paid any publisher money not to offer their game on a competing platform. Doing so is a foul move in my opinion. Doubly so if you do it at the last minute.

 

[1] Because they never had to, of course.

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oh and say what you want, the upper Obsidian Management did know from the beginning.

 

That's literally impossible, since EGS didn't exist when they started working on TOW- Fortnite hadn't even been released, there was no money cow. EGS' aggressive push only started a few months ago.

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This is a complete betrayal of not just this community, but of PC gamers the world over. It's a direct attack on consumers, it's a direct attack on fair competition. And all of that for a proverbial suitcase full of cash from Epic Tencent.

 

Well congratulations Obsidian, you've shown yourselves to be precisely the same kind of greedy corporate entity as the likes of EA and Activision, perfectly willing to do anything so long as you smell profit.

 

I for one will never buy another Obsidian game again. I hope your new Chinese overlords made it worth it Obsidian...

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Disappointed to see this happen. Not a big fan of Epic or their store.

I have a huge backlog of games to catch up on including PoE 2 so I'll play catch up on them until the game comes out on Steam. (Unless the game turns out to be a dud in which case I'll pass... but it looks good so far)

 

That said I may wind up missing it out altogether... March 2020 is when Bloodlines 2 is meant to be coming out...

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oh and say what you want, the upper Obsidian Management did know from the beginning.

and devs becoming also a bigger cut in all of this EPIG 12% whatever BS? hrhrhrhrhrhr

 

sorry, rant is over now.

Prove it. That's my only requirement for believing that Obsidian knew. Provide some evidence.

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Well, add me to the list of not buying this game. I have nothing against Obsidian, and I'm not frothing at the mouth or raging.... but I've got to look out for myself as a customer too.

 

Being forced to use a inferior client, with questionable connections and a history of security breaches and super shady behavior is not benefiting me. It is literally bringing the worse parts of the console wars to the PC marketplace for no reason, well... aside from corporate greed.

 

So, my money goes to something else for now.

 

As for the devs, they should say something. Top of my head, what would probably get the community off of their backs would be an admission, hey... publisher sprung this on us and we hate it too. Second, if they really wanted to come out as the good guys, state that all sales of the game from the MS store can be transfered to steam at the end of the 12 month waiting period....

 

But those are just the thoughts of one former customer.

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What I find funny about all of this is, when Steam launched, I heard so many insane things about how bad Steam was and how anti-cosumer and just awful in every way Steam was, would forever be, and I was an idiot for preferring it to going into Gamestop and telling the employee what I wanted. They would stare at me like I had a second head, and then ask the second head if I wanted the game for one of the game consoles. Or, better, they would tell me that such a game did not exist. I would kindly tell them to look into their computer, they would snark off after they found it and I prepurchased it, and leave.

 

Steam was met with not a small amount of pushback, Steam was pretty well loathed for years by many people who are now regular users. I mean, when Steam started their big push they had The Orange Box so I could not only play my games on Steam but also give a free copy to Half Life 2 to people since I had already owned it. The entire rigmarole was trotted out, what happens when their servers go offline permanently, what happens when the sky falls, what happens when we get hit by a gamma ray burst... like a software platform can deal with literally everything.

 

I say more power to companies opting to go to the Epic Games store. Epic Games, while not the best storefront yet, is still in the stage where Steam routinely had the kinds of errors that made me avoid it for over a year until they gave me beta access to TF2.

 

I don't like splitting up my library any more than anyone else, but the thing is, the Epic store being a storefront that other companies want to sell their titles on means that potentially even those morons in charge of companies that decided just their company alone was worthy of a storefront that barely works and has no effort put into it. So far Epic's storefront hasn't caused me any major problems (or any problems at all that I've noticed tbh) and their software WORKS.

 

Meanwhile Bethesda got the "Boohoo they got mad at me for selling paid mods, this is your fault Steam!" affliction and rolled out Bethesda.net which is handily the worst piece of software for acquiring content that exists. Alt tab away from it and it pauses, because you WANT to watch that DL number get bigger. Shift tab into a browser window? It interpreted that as you backing out of the file you were looking at so now you just have to guess whether or not that file finished downloading. Lists of files being downloaded? What do you think this is? Some free software provided by modders(who BTW offered to currate Bethesda.net for free and were rejected)!?

 

My point is that the Epic games storefront isn't offensive, it's at worst a bit bland and they could probably use more servers to avoid congestion at peak hours, in other words the kind of growing pains every single storefront encounters.

 

To me all of this is just as laughable as everyone calling this an Epic exclusive when it has said in every single article that it is also going to be available at the Microsoft store as well as on M$' rival console. Exclusivity sure has changed since my day when it meant that you could only acquire the item in one location.

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I simply said this is a continuation of obsidians past behavior is making bad publishing deals. This doesn't require Epic or MS or China. It just requires basic familiarity with the company and how things went with them of the kotor2 and fallout new Vegas deals. They took bad terms and got shafted for it. That it happened again despite their experience with prior bad deals is indeed their own damn fault, just as much as the publisher taking advantage of their continued legacy of idiocy.

 

Most competent devs in the industry can develop congenial relationships with a publisher for more than two rushed games. That obsidian can't and instead still rush to bad deals (despite the MS buyout looming when they signed with take 2) speaks poorly of them. It doesn't mean other parties are somehow innocent, just that this is consistent with company history.

 

And frankly, no one sane signs a publishing agreement that reads 'the publisher can do whatever they like without consultation and agreement with the dev" which is what you are arguing.

 

 

Yes that is what you said. Which is why I asked, did you see a competitor opening up Steam that would gobble up games and piss off people left and right while doing so?

 

Kotor2 and FNV deal have nothing do with this. And if you are citing FNV deal as bad deal because there was a metacritic clause... Bethesda put that in there when there could have been none. From what has been said, Obsidian didn't try to negotiate on that bonus. They were happy for the work, that they desperately needed to keep the company from going under.

 

How many Obsidian sized indie crpg developers do you know that exist. As of recenty only Larian was as big as Obsidian. Rest are owned by someone. It's a niche market and the publishers aren't really dependent on the actual developer. In the recent years we've seen less and less bigger scope crgps hitting the market. You really think Obsidian has some leverage in these deals when hardly anyone has been looking to publish crpgs?

 

I never said that the publisher can do anything they like or that the contract would be written like that. It's a legal document, there will be loopholes and any legal document will be binding.

 

The contract would say that the publisher is responsible for getting the game out on PC, PS4 and XBOX etc. Because there was not any actual other platform to put it out on, it does not specifically say that the game has to come out on Steam. They've agreed to publish in on all 3 platforms on the same day (because Obsidian fanbase is heavily on PC). Even that could easily have been first on consoles, later on PC if you look at how Take-Two normally operates. There will be rules and clauses on the release dates and such, but at the end of the day. Publisher will be left with the option to take the game to EGS if they want to, unless someone has seen this coming years ago and added a clause that specifically says the game has to be released on Steam on the same day as on PS4 and Xbox.

 

Why would Private Division care about Obsidian at this point and their relationship with them? It's one game and then they are done with them due to the MS ownership.

Either way, whether the contract is bad or not, Obsidian is a subsidiary of Microsoft and don't control their own fate in this. Those talks are between Microsoft and Private Division.

 

Hate the living, love the dead.

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As for the devs, they should say something. Top of my head, what would probably get the community off of their backs would be an admission, hey... publisher sprung this on us and we hate it too. Second, if they really wanted to come out as the good guys, state that all sales of the game from the MS store can be transfered to steam at the end of the 12 month waiting period....

 

 

Non Disclosure Agreement. They can't say **** publicly about this until the NDA runs out.

 

Would Microsoft ever agree on such transfer of games? I seriously doubt that.

Hate the living, love the dead.

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Well Chris Avellone says that this sort of behaviour is exactly what he would have expected from Obs. CEO. Obviously, there is some bad blood here, but he says the devs are the last to know, and that the upper management would have most likely been part of this decision, so it probably wasn't a publisher surprise. 

 

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1108967939451940866

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What I find funny about all of this is, when Steam launched, I heard so many insane things about how bad Steam was and how anti-cosumer and just awful in every way Steam was, would forever be, and I was an idiot for preferring it to going into Gamestop and telling the employee what I wanted. They would stare at me like I had a second head, and then ask the second head if I wanted the game for one of the game consoles. Or, better, they would tell me that such a game did not exist. I would kindly tell them to look into their computer, they would snark off after they found it and I prepurchased it, and leave.

 

Steam was met with not a small amount of pushback, Steam was pretty well loathed for years by many people who are now regular users. I mean, when Steam started their big push they had The Orange Box so I could not only play my games on Steam but also give a free copy to Half Life 2 to people since I had already owned it. The entire rigmarole was trotted out, what happens when their servers go offline permanently, what happens when the sky falls, what happens when we get hit by a gamma ray burst... like a software platform can deal with literally everything.

 

I say more power to companies opting to go to the Epic Games store. Epic Games, while not the best storefront yet, is still in the stage where Steam routinely had the kinds of errors that made me avoid it for over a year until they gave me beta access to TF2.

 

I don't like splitting up my library any more than anyone else, but the thing is, the Epic store being a storefront that other companies want to sell their titles on means that potentially even those morons in charge of companies that decided just their company alone was worthy of a storefront that barely works and has no effort put into it. So far Epic's storefront hasn't caused me any major problems (or any problems at all that I've noticed tbh) and their software WORKS.

 

Meanwhile Bethesda got the "Boohoo they got mad at me for selling paid mods, this is your fault Steam!" affliction and rolled out Bethesda.net which is handily the worst piece of software for acquiring content that exists. Alt tab away from it and it pauses, because you WANT to watch that DL number get bigger. Shift tab into a browser window? It interpreted that as you backing out of the file you were looking at so now you just have to guess whether or not that file finished downloading. Lists of files being downloaded? What do you think this is? Some free software provided by modders(who BTW offered to currate Bethesda.net for free and were rejected)!?

 

My point is that the Epic games storefront isn't offensive, it's at worst a bit bland and they could probably use more servers to avoid congestion at peak hours, in other words the kind of growing pains every single storefront encounters.

 

To me all of this is just as laughable as everyone calling this an Epic exclusive when it has said in every single article that it is also going to be available at the Microsoft store as well as on M$' rival console. Exclusivity sure has changed since my day when it meant that you could only acquire the item in one location.

 

I have zero problem with competition. I'd actually think the market would be great with more competition, but I'm not naive enough to think this is it. This isn't competition, this is a company with deep pockets bullying its way into the marketplace in a massively anti-consumer fashion.

 

Their client, simply put, isn't ready to be a major marketplace. Its broken, gets breached at what feels like a regular fashion.... but it doesn't matter to Epic, nor their CEO. He's goes on stage and says that customer opinions do not matter, a working product (thier store) does not matter... the only thing that matters is them being able to snag exclusive publishing deals that will force the customer base to their store. That is not working in my best interest as a customer. Full stop.

 

So what? I'm suddenly supposed to be cool with it, trust them that they have my best interests at heart? Yeah, no. Like I said, I'm not naive enough to believe that. You want to compete? Make a product that is worth my money, worth my time, worth my download, instead of  leveraging a game I want to play in order to force me to use it. The market is crowded, which means you need to make something that stands out, buying exclusives to float your vanity project is getting exactly the backlash it deserves.

 

Like I said before, this is literally bringing the worst parts of the console market to the PC. This kind of timed exclusivity only exists because one publisher gave another publisher a big enough bag of money for them to be cool with it. I doubt Obsidian will see much, if any, of the money Take2 made off of this deal.

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As for the devs, they should say something. Top of my head, what would probably get the community off of their backs would be an admission, hey... publisher sprung this on us and we hate it too. Second, if they really wanted to come out as the good guys, state that all sales of the game from the MS store can be transfered to steam at the end of the 12 month waiting period....

 

 

Non Disclosure Agreement. They can't say **** publicly about this until the NDA runs out.

 

Would Microsoft ever agree on such transfer of games? I seriously doubt that.

Yup, unfortunately the side effect of this happens to be that they get to eat **** till someone talks about it "anonymously".

 

Read your contracts before you sign them people, maybe question the clause that says we as a publisher reserve the right to pull your game off of the marketplace at our whim. Its called cover your butt 101. You might also want to include a clause of your own, where a publisher sabotaging your release, your brand, your reputation gives you access to certain actions, recompense, etc....

 

Pretty basic stuff really.

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Well Chris Avellone says that this sort of behaviour is exactly what he would have expected from Obs. CEO. Obviously, there is some bad blood here, but he says the devs are the last to know, and that the upper management would have most likely been part of this decision, so it probably wasn't a publisher surprise.

 

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1108967939451940866

Except he backtracked immediately. Just scroll ONE tweet down.

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Well Chris Avellone says that this sort of behaviour is exactly what he would have expected from Obs. CEO. Obviously, there is some bad blood here, but he says the devs are the last to know, and that the upper management would have most likely been part of this decision, so it probably wasn't a publisher surprise. 

 

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1108967939451940866

 

Yes, Avellone is totally legit and beliavable source when it comes to Obsidian and the partners. Oh, wait. He isn't.

Avellone uses every opportunity to strike at Feargus & co. Doesn't have to be true, if someone believes him he has achieved what he was looking for.

Hate the living, love the dead.

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I'm goin to wait a year for the exclusivity deal to end, then buy it on Steam. Heck it might even come with a 50% sale at that point. It fills me with great sadness that I have to do this, as I was seriously looking out for another good RPG. But there is no way in hell I'm spending money on a half-baked launcher that barely has any service or support. I hope many people will follow suite on this matter. I 100% understand why they do it, but I dont think they understand why it is so anti-consumer to do this. So I sadly think that Obsidian too, will find out how hard their customers will push back and boycot the sales of this.

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