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So... the loot kinda sucks


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#101
bringingyouthefuture

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It looks like OP wants gear useful only for tank. Disengagement immunitie useless, perception immunitie useless, might immunities worthless... My last char wears Skaen Robe, solo PotD +DD. Guess I am doing something wrong...

 

Affliction immunities are never useless.  I will say that I'm not so sure about having a disengagement immunity (or was it just a very high disengagement defense bonus?) on heavy armor doesn't strike me as the most  valuable thing going.  Not that there's anything wrong with disengagement buffs.  It just seems to me that a disengagement buff would be more valuable for someone wearing light or perhaps medium armor, rather than heavy armor.

 

I have some problems with the loot/booty in a very different way.  I have to admit that I kind of like the old school paradigms or tropes when it comes to fantasy stories and games.  And that carries over into items in the game for me.  I wish that there were more items that seemed aimed at different types of characters.  Not exactly specific classes, but did play to the tropes.  Such as staffs that feel like they're wizard staffs.  Or robes that felt like robes for, well, mostly wizards.  I suppose that one could argue that the Chromatic Staff is sorta-kinda a wizardly staff, but to me, not enough.  If it was a true wizardly staff, it should probably have the skill  that buffs up certain staff abilities be Arcana rather than Metaphysics.  

 

Also, a number of the proc'd special abilities seem to be a bit too corner cased and difficult to use.  Like the "True Love's Kiss" dagger which has its special proc'ing on stealth attacks, which basically means you can only use it once per encounter, and only if you have exceptional Stealth.  I think that it would have been better if the special was more like other specials where the size of the buff increased with the value of the skill.  At least this way, you don't end up with an exceptionally narrow set of circumstances where the ability can proc.

 

And honestly, I don't really like all the item upgrades.  I wish that the devs had spent that time and effort on creating additional unique weapons, armor, and shields, particularly weapons in types that are rather short in numbers.

 

 

I could be wrong too but the Lover's Kiss is kind of built for a Roque so not sure I agree totally with your post... playing an assassin there is numerous ways to go back into stealth and backstab and potentially get the added bonuses from the dagger ... unless I am totally wrong what it means by stealth, and haven't tested but it could also stack with raw damage you are already doing as a Rogue with Deep Wounds :)

 

Here is where I think the upgrades really shine ... it allows you to adapt the item to your playstyle, and character.  I think the difference between POE and say old school D&D fantasy tropes, is that POE is even more nuanced for certain builds and characters - its actually the exact opposite of not having unique items for characters, they are just not as general.

 

As for why I like stripped down weapons and stat buffs ... it makes you not rely on weapons and stat buffs - plus I think I dig crafting weapons, which I am just realizing now.

 

 

Dude, this dagger may be great for Assassin builds, but that's only a tiny percentage of all possible builds in this game.  And when there are only 2 unique daggers plus one soul-bound dagger (with limited class options), to me, this absolutely SCREAMS bad.  It's really stupid in my opinion to have such narrow usage weapons when there are so few to choose from in that specific type of weapon (in this case, daggers).

 

As for upgrades, I don't care about them because I would VASTLY prefer to have more unique weapons (and all items) in the game, rather than a smaller number with upgrades.  To me, the upgrades only served to require time, money, and other resources that could have been (IMO) better spent on creating additional items, particularly in those item types that are currently low in number.

 

 

hmm, but there are tons of cool Stilettos - and if you are looking for a fast weapons that does damage I really like the club ... But I guess I understand - if you want to play a fighter with a dagger ... wait a minute!? But that would be stepping outside of the tropes wouldn't it?  I disagree too about only fitting some builds, as you can multi-class a rogue with any build ... but honest what would a wizard get out of stabbing someone from stealth ... especially with a dagger ... unless said wizard is suicidal :)

 

I could see a monk using the dagger, but still not from stealth, unless the monk went Rogue than there you go.  I just don't agree with the argument about how the weapons only work etc ...  and as I stated before its fine to have the cool weapons, but its better to have somewhat cool weapons and awesome character choices to go along.  Plus you can mod any weapon you want ;)


Edited by bringingyouthefuture, 15 March 2019 - 05:44 PM.


#102
Verde

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I agree that some weapon categories need more uniques, like daggers. But some only have a few and they are game changes - like Thicket Green and Chromo Staff.

I feel like it's fairly obvious why Disengement Immunity is good - you can run around the battlefield freely. Now it's super heavy armor and a tank may not need it bc of Charge, but other characters, like a Druid or Priest can really benefit. Plus it has other benefits as well. It's a top tier armor for sure.

Looking at robes, for example, there are only a few uniques ones but they are really powerful and can enhance a playstyle. The one with poison and Dex affl immunity is amazing with a Druid MC bc of all the Hobbling poisonous plant spells covering the battlefield. By endgame you're creating forests. You just gotta get creative.

Edited by Verde, 15 March 2019 - 05:55 PM.


#103
Crucis

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It looks like OP wants gear useful only for tank. Disengagement immunitie useless, perception immunitie useless, might immunities worthless... My last char wears Skaen Robe, solo PotD +DD. Guess I am doing something wrong...

 

Affliction immunities are never useless.  I will say that I'm not so sure about having a disengagement immunity (or was it just a very high disengagement defense bonus?) on heavy armor doesn't strike me as the most  valuable thing going.  Not that there's anything wrong with disengagement buffs.  It just seems to me that a disengagement buff would be more valuable for someone wearing light or perhaps medium armor, rather than heavy armor.

 

I have some problems with the loot/booty in a very different way.  I have to admit that I kind of like the old school paradigms or tropes when it comes to fantasy stories and games.  And that carries over into items in the game for me.  I wish that there were more items that seemed aimed at different types of characters.  Not exactly specific classes, but did play to the tropes.  Such as staffs that feel like they're wizard staffs.  Or robes that felt like robes for, well, mostly wizards.  I suppose that one could argue that the Chromatic Staff is sorta-kinda a wizardly staff, but to me, not enough.  If it was a true wizardly staff, it should probably have the skill  that buffs up certain staff abilities be Arcana rather than Metaphysics.  

 

Also, a number of the proc'd special abilities seem to be a bit too corner cased and difficult to use.  Like the "True Love's Kiss" dagger which has its special proc'ing on stealth attacks, which basically means you can only use it once per encounter, and only if you have exceptional Stealth.  I think that it would have been better if the special was more like other specials where the size of the buff increased with the value of the skill.  At least this way, you don't end up with an exceptionally narrow set of circumstances where the ability can proc.

 

And honestly, I don't really like all the item upgrades.  I wish that the devs had spent that time and effort on creating additional unique weapons, armor, and shields, particularly weapons in types that are rather short in numbers.

 

 

I could be wrong too but the Lover's Kiss is kind of built for a Roque so not sure I agree totally with your post... playing an assassin there is numerous ways to go back into stealth and backstab and potentially get the added bonuses from the dagger ... unless I am totally wrong what it means by stealth, and haven't tested but it could also stack with raw damage you are already doing as a Rogue with Deep Wounds :)

 

Here is where I think the upgrades really shine ... it allows you to adapt the item to your playstyle, and character.  I think the difference between POE and say old school D&D fantasy tropes, is that POE is even more nuanced for certain builds and characters - its actually the exact opposite of not having unique items for characters, they are just not as general.

 

As for why I like stripped down weapons and stat buffs ... it makes you not rely on weapons and stat buffs - plus I think I dig crafting weapons, which I am just realizing now.

 

 

Dude, this dagger may be great for Assassin builds, but that's only a tiny percentage of all possible builds in this game.  And when there are only 2 unique daggers plus one soul-bound dagger (with limited class options), to me, this absolutely SCREAMS bad.  It's really stupid in my opinion to have such narrow usage weapons when there are so few to choose from in that specific type of weapon (in this case, daggers).

 

As for upgrades, I don't care about them because I would VASTLY prefer to have more unique weapons (and all items) in the game, rather than a smaller number with upgrades.  To me, the upgrades only served to require time, money, and other resources that could have been (IMO) better spent on creating additional items, particularly in those item types that are currently low in number.

 

 

hmm, but there are tons of cool Stilettos - and if you are looking for a fast weapons that does damage I really like the club ... But I guess I understand - if you want to play a fighter with a dagger ... wait a minute!? But that would be stepping outside of the tropes wouldn't it?  I disagree too about only fitting some builds, as you can multi-class a rogue with any build ... but honest what would a wizard get out of stabbing someone from stealth ... especially with a dagger ... unless said wizard is suicidal :)

 

I could see a monk using the dagger, but still not from stealth, unless the monk went Rogue than there you go.  I just don't agree with the argument about how the weapons only work etc ...  and as I stated before its fine to have the cool weapons, but its better to have somewhat cool weapons and awesome character choices to go along.  Plus you can mod any weapon you want ;)

 

 

 

1.  There are only TWO unique stilettos.  And one of them can seem impossible to get, i.e. Rust's stiletto.  If you're not as strong as him, he'll massacre you.  And if your part is strong, he just teleports out and runs away.  So, in reality, there's really only one.

 

2. As for the usefulness of daggers, sometimes someone might just want to use daggers for the role-playing feel.  But when one of the daggers is a soulbound one with limited class options, and another is one whose only ability is an extremely narrow corner case, this makes using daggers rather difficult unless you're willing to use generic ones.  About the best option one has is perhaps a dagger/stiletto dual wield.  But it's really lame to have so few dagger and stiletto options.

 

3.  We're not going to agree.  I think that you're wrong across the board. You probably feel the same about me.


Edited by Crucis, 15 March 2019 - 08:37 PM.

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#104
bringingyouthefuture

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It looks like OP wants gear useful only for tank. Disengagement immunitie useless, perception immunitie useless, might immunities worthless... My last char wears Skaen Robe, solo PotD +DD. Guess I am doing something wrong...

 

Affliction immunities are never useless.  I will say that I'm not so sure about having a disengagement immunity (or was it just a very high disengagement defense bonus?) on heavy armor doesn't strike me as the most  valuable thing going.  Not that there's anything wrong with disengagement buffs.  It just seems to me that a disengagement buff would be more valuable for someone wearing light or perhaps medium armor, rather than heavy armor.

 

I have some problems with the loot/booty in a very different way.  I have to admit that I kind of like the old school paradigms or tropes when it comes to fantasy stories and games.  And that carries over into items in the game for me.  I wish that there were more items that seemed aimed at different types of characters.  Not exactly specific classes, but did play to the tropes.  Such as staffs that feel like they're wizard staffs.  Or robes that felt like robes for, well, mostly wizards.  I suppose that one could argue that the Chromatic Staff is sorta-kinda a wizardly staff, but to me, not enough.  If it was a true wizardly staff, it should probably have the skill  that buffs up certain staff abilities be Arcana rather than Metaphysics.  

 

Also, a number of the proc'd special abilities seem to be a bit too corner cased and difficult to use.  Like the "True Love's Kiss" dagger which has its special proc'ing on stealth attacks, which basically means you can only use it once per encounter, and only if you have exceptional Stealth.  I think that it would have been better if the special was more like other specials where the size of the buff increased with the value of the skill.  At least this way, you don't end up with an exceptionally narrow set of circumstances where the ability can proc.

 

And honestly, I don't really like all the item upgrades.  I wish that the devs had spent that time and effort on creating additional unique weapons, armor, and shields, particularly weapons in types that are rather short in numbers.

 

 

I could be wrong too but the Lover's Kiss is kind of built for a Roque so not sure I agree totally with your post... playing an assassin there is numerous ways to go back into stealth and backstab and potentially get the added bonuses from the dagger ... unless I am totally wrong what it means by stealth, and haven't tested but it could also stack with raw damage you are already doing as a Rogue with Deep Wounds :)

 

Here is where I think the upgrades really shine ... it allows you to adapt the item to your playstyle, and character.  I think the difference between POE and say old school D&D fantasy tropes, is that POE is even more nuanced for certain builds and characters - its actually the exact opposite of not having unique items for characters, they are just not as general.

 

As for why I like stripped down weapons and stat buffs ... it makes you not rely on weapons and stat buffs - plus I think I dig crafting weapons, which I am just realizing now.

 

 

Dude, this dagger may be great for Assassin builds, but that's only a tiny percentage of all possible builds in this game.  And when there are only 2 unique daggers plus one soul-bound dagger (with limited class options), to me, this absolutely SCREAMS bad.  It's really stupid in my opinion to have such narrow usage weapons when there are so few to choose from in that specific type of weapon (in this case, daggers).

 

As for upgrades, I don't care about them because I would VASTLY prefer to have more unique weapons (and all items) in the game, rather than a smaller number with upgrades.  To me, the upgrades only served to require time, money, and other resources that could have been (IMO) better spent on creating additional items, particularly in those item types that are currently low in number.

 

 

hmm, but there are tons of cool Stilettos - and if you are looking for a fast weapons that does damage I really like the club ... But I guess I understand - if you want to play a fighter with a dagger ... wait a minute!? But that would be stepping outside of the tropes wouldn't it?  I disagree too about only fitting some builds, as you can multi-class a rogue with any build ... but honest what would a wizard get out of stabbing someone from stealth ... especially with a dagger ... unless said wizard is suicidal :)

 

I could see a monk using the dagger, but still not from stealth, unless the monk went Rogue than there you go.  I just don't agree with the argument about how the weapons only work etc ...  and as I stated before its fine to have the cool weapons, but its better to have somewhat cool weapons and awesome character choices to go along.  Plus you can mod any weapon you want ;)

 

 

 

1.  There are only TWO unique stilettos.  And one of them can seem impossible to get, i.e. Rust's stiletto.  If you're not as strong as him, he'll massacre you.  And if your part is strong, he just teleports out and runs away.  So, in reality, there's really only one.

 

2. As for the usefulness of daggers, sometimes someone might just want to use daggers for the role-playing feel.  But when one of the daggers is a soulbound one with limited class options, and another is one whose only ability is an extremely narrow corner case, this makes using daggers rather difficult unless you're willing to use generic ones.  About the best option one has is perhaps a dagger/stiletto dual wield.  But it's really lame to have so few dagger and stiletto options.

 

3.  We're not going to agree.  I think that you're wrong across the board. You probably feel the same about me.

 

 

Lol I take that back about tons, I maybe spoke too soon ;)  It's fine to disagree I think, maybe POE2 itemization is good personally because when I think of stiletto, dagger, club, flail - I look at the utility, you need a fast weapon for a skeleton - you don't want a dagger.  Honest, I have to change up my weapons so much due to PEN that I couldn't imagine trying to play the game with one weapon, or if I did pick a Devoted it might be like a War Hammer that does two types of damage.  I think because of that I have multiple types of weapons, and never feel that there isn't enough - and as stated in my previous post it doesn't interfere with my role playing style at all.  I do miss being able to enchant my ordinary gear with various types of benefits like fire, etc from POE1 - I would be happy if they brought that back, but it would depress me if they made a bunch of magic weapons and armor and added them like they did with the White March.  It really killed combat for me - except if it was story specific like Abydon's Hammer, that was pretty cool.  Honest in your defense I have said this before and I definitely am in the minority I think.  I just like to put it out there that there is some of us that prefer the game with the powerful cool equipment that is available, and prefer it to the way other games treat magic weapons. 



#105
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1. Is not correct though. Rust is fairly easy to beat down with a full party. And once he teleports away to the entrance to the narrows you just have to follow him. Then a hand-drawn-sheet-based mini-adventure follows where you have to track him through the narrows (which is easy) and then kill him in a final showdown. So all in all it's fairly easy to get such a powerful weapon so early. I guess you just missed the opportunity to follow him into the narrows - which is understandable sice it's not so obvious that you can do this.

Azure Blade's ACC bonus kind of always works by the way. Either it's bugged or the radius is like 20m or so. Either way: it's like a permanent +15 ACC bonus.

Together those two are pretty awesome. But it's only two unfortunately.

I agree that some weapon groups came with too many uniques while others are too few. But that's also a result of the crowdfunding. Lots of people who pledged for the weapon tier insisted on creating a sword or a great sword.

Also the system of uniques and enchantments (lash on everything etc.) from PoE was criticized heavily. "Every weapon is the same in PoE!!11!11" stuff. So the devs went and invented this new system where every unique has its own unique enchantment tree. This - naturally - requires a lot more work and can only lead to less uniques compared to the old, more uniform system.

Edited by Boeroer, 15 March 2019 - 09:51 PM.

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#106
bringingyouthefuture

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I watched this video about the old SSI Gold Box games on some bloggers site ... the first D&D crpg games really limited weapons heavily.  I think Thieves couldn't use longswords, Mages couldn't use short swords, Priests couldn't use bladed weapons.  Everyday I have gratitude that these games have come so far :blink: I am definitely more a Gandalf with a cool flaming sword, than Elminster with just a staff.


Edited by bringingyouthefuture, 15 March 2019 - 10:43 PM.

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#107
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I find itemization also rather unsatisfying. Telling how an item will work out is hard since it rarely comes down to a simple inequality. In DND you have the simple +N system for weapons and armors which gives you a simple mean to recognize the quality of a weapon. This is somewhat lost in PoE II since you can raise the enchantment of most unique weapons. Also the side effects are often circumstantial and intricate in design making it very hard to tell how it will work out without actually testing it. 
 
I don't know how some people get all their knowledge about the mechanics, but i certainly have not such an understanding, even after finishing PoE II twice. Perhaps the system is more rewarding and fun if you like tinkering and testing, but one can find the system rather cumbersome and irritating if you are not that invested in the mechanics. I prefer a more straightforward system with linearity and some side effects which are clear cut. BG1/2 and IWD1/2 did that well in my opinion.
 
I think this also creates the feeling that there are no great items in the game, since there is rarely a clear cut improvement going from one unique magical item to the next. I miss that in PoE II but i would not say that one approach is better than the other, it mostly depends on personal preference and expectation.
Perhaps a solution can be found that satisfies both ends of the spectrum in PoE III.

Exactly how PoE2 loot system made me feel. I'd also like to add that the whole metagameplay, testing and tinkering seems to be completely at odds with a roleplaying game as a concept. Namely, if I had to narrow down the core principles of the RPG genre (although this is debatable), I would say that they are the characters, choices and consequences. Now whether you agree with this classification or not, you still have to ask yourself where are your characters when you can just throw some gold to the innkeeper and magically transform your nerdy alchemist to an athletic jock? Where are the choices when if you want to get the benefits of that shield for your warrior, he has to have high athletics instead of what you imagined him when you created him? And lastly, where are the consequences to your choices when you are constantly loading/reloading various builds so that you can test them extensively? If there were true consequences, once you spend those 60000 gold to upgrade your weapon, that gold would be gone forever! You wouldn't be able to just reload and try another item. Also, how much of a choice is it really to build your characters from a guide or an excel-sheet instead of doing it by your gut and sticking with your choices even if you make a few mistakes down the line?

As I said in the beginning, whoever made these design decisions when it comes to PoE2 loot seemed to have had only one type of person in their mind - the kind that likes to play around with various builds and tinker with the numbers, which is why I hope that was an interesting experiment on their part and not a conscious design philosophy. Because if it is the latter, I really hope that person stays as far away from loot and RPGs as possible.

Edited by RedKnight, 16 March 2019 - 04:06 AM.


#108
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That would be Josh Sawyer. I don't think he will do that. I also think he didn't create this system on a whim.

He had this problem in mind:

You play the game and started as a Swashbuckler with Rapier and feathered hat. Suddenly you find a very good two handed axe. The longer you play the more you realize that you won't find a Rapier that is just half as good. You are frustrated.

Balanced loot will prevent that. You will still find stuff that may be better than the stuff you opted for - but it will not give you the feeling that you took the supergimpy way.

A very reasonable approach in my opinion. It also works well as far as I am concerned. I never had the "oh crap I'm not a paladin" moment that I had when I found stuff like Carsomyr +5 in the loot of the dragon I just defeated.

You won't have to retrain just in order to free yourself from a trap choice when it comes to loot. You can retrain - however - if you feel you want something else from your character (for whatever reason). Both is there to prevent frustration with the route you took - not to cater to powergames who like to try out builds. That's only a side-effect of balanced loot.

Edited by Boeroer, 16 March 2019 - 04:20 AM.


#109
Crucis

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1. Is not correct though. Rust is fairly easy to beat down with a full party. And once he teleports away to the entrance to the narrows you just have to follow him. Then a hand-drawn-sheet-based mini-adventure follows where you have to track him through the narrows (which is easy) and then kill him in a final showdown. So all in all it's fairly easy to get such a powerful weapon so early. I guess you just missed the opportunity to follow him into the narrows - which is understandable sice it's not so obvious that you can do this.

Azure Blade's ACC bonus kind of always works by the way. Either it's bugged or the radius is like 20m or so. Either way: it's like a permanent +15 ACC bonus.

Together those two are pretty awesome. But it's only two unfortunately.

I agree that some weapon groups came with too many uniques while others are too few. But that's also a result of the crowdfunding. Lots of people who pledged for the weapon tier insisted on creating a sword or a great sword.

Also the system of uniques and enchantments (lash on everything etc.) from PoE was criticized heavily. "Every weapon is the same in PoE!!11!11" stuff. So the devs went and invented this new system where every unique has its own unique enchantment tree. This - naturally - requires a lot more work and can only lead to less uniques compared to the old, more uniform system.

 

I didn't bother trying to run Rust down.  I just assumed that that was the game's way of giving the player a big bleep you.  

 

As for the crowd funding, that's just dumb.  They shouldn't have allowed that outcome to even be possible.  I don't care if there are exacctly the same number of unique weapons or armors of each type.  But there should have been at least, say, 3-4 for each type, with any beyond that being gravy.  This number probably shouldn't include pre-order items.  And frankly, shouldn't include items on those "revenge ships", I think someone called them.  I'm NOT fond of hiding items behind extreme corner case situations that players may never see.

 

As for the final paragraph, honestly, I don't give a flying firetruck about weapon/armor/shield crafting systems.  To me, they're a waste of time  that would be far better spent on MORE of those items.



#110
xzar_monty

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I can appreciate you not liking the crafting system, but I'm not sure if more items would be a good idea. I mean, there are already like way too many uniques in the game: you can only use a fraction and will most likely sell nearly all of them.

 

(I feel the overabundance of unique items in both PoE and Deadfire is a bit of a downer: you don't have to play very long before loot ceases to elicit any emotion, because there's just so much supposedly-unique stuff lying around that you don't know what to do with it.)


Edited by xzar_monty, 16 March 2019 - 05:34 AM.


#111
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I just explained how you get the stiletto reliably and why things might be the way they are - no need to get all cranked up. :)

I would have liked more "special" uniques which are not universially powerful but can give certain "twists". Like for example turning a Paladin's Flames of Devotion from Burn to Freeze (and maybe give it a slight bonus as well). That would be nice for me - while not breaking the game's balance.

Edited by Boeroer, 16 March 2019 - 08:25 AM.

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#112
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That would be Josh Sawyer. I don't think he will do that. I also think he didn't create this system on a whim.

He had this problem in mind:

You play the game and started as a Swashbuckler with Rapier and feathered hat. Suddenly you find a very good two handed axe. The longer you play the more you realize that you won't find a Rapier that is just half as good. You are frustrated.

Balanced loot will prevent that. You will still find stuff that may be better than the stuff you opted for - but it will not give you the feeling that you took the supergimpy way.

A very reasonable approach in my opinion. It also works well as far as I am concerned. I never had the "oh crap I'm not a paladin" moment that I had when I found stuff like Carsomyr +5 in the loot of the dragon I just defeated.

You won't have to retrain just in order to free yourself from a trap choice when it comes to loot. You can retrain - however - if you feel you want something else from your character (for whatever reason). Both is there to prevent frustration with the route you took - not to cater to powergames who like to try out builds. That's only a side-effect of balanced loot.

Well, if that was Sawyer's reasoning, then no wonder the loot feels so crappy.
1. If you can't find a rapier that is half as good as the axe, then the solution is to create a rapier that is good as the axe or at least close to it. The solution is not to create conditionals on pretty much every item and thus multiplying "Oh ****, I am not a paldin" moments. Case and point, finding a shield in PoE2 that is great only if you have a high athletics skill, thus creating "Oh ****, I don't have a high athletics skill" moment and forcing you to respec, which I already explained why is anthithetical to the RPG genre.
2. It is not clear to me that balance is something that players are really concerned about. These types of games have never been balanced and there were always classes and items that were just better then everything else. Considering the amount of variations and possible builds, that is unavoidable, I'm afraid. Even in PoE2 there are numerous builds/combinations that are just objectively better than others, so if he thinks he achieved balance - well he didn't. He just ruined the loot system.
3. Whether catering to powergamers was a side effect or the main goal is irrelevant. That is the actual result of his design philosophy and I think it does a lot more harm than good for the genre.

#113
Verde

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1. Is not correct though. Rust is fairly easy to beat down with a full party. And once he teleports away to the entrance to the narrows you just have to follow him. Then a hand-drawn-sheet-based mini-adventure follows where you have to track him through the narrows (which is easy) and then kill him in a final showdown. So all in all it's fairly easy to get such a powerful weapon so early. I guess you just missed the opportunity to follow him into the narrows - which is understandable sice it's not so obvious that you can do this.

Azure Blade's ACC bonus kind of always works by the way. Either it's bugged or the radius is like 20m or so. Either way: it's like a permanent +15 ACC bonus.

Together those two are pretty awesome. But it's only two unfortunately.

I agree that some weapon groups came with too many uniques while others are too few. But that's also a result of the crowdfunding. Lots of people who pledged for the weapon tier insisted on creating a sword or a great sword.

Also the system of uniques and enchantments (lash on everything etc.) from PoE was criticized heavily. "Every weapon is the same in PoE!!11!11" stuff. So the devs went and invented this new system where every unique has its own unique enchantment tree. This - naturally - requires a lot more work and can only lead to less uniques compared to the old, more uniform system.

I didn't bother trying to run Rust down. I just assumed that that was the game's way of giving the player a big bleep you.

As for the crowd funding, that's just dumb. They shouldn't have allowed that outcome to even be possible. I don't care if there are exacctly the same number of unique weapons or armors of each type. But there should have been at least, say, 3-4 for each type, with any beyond that being gravy. This number probably shouldn't include pre-order items. And frankly, shouldn't include items on those "revenge ships", I think someone called them. I'm NOT fond of hiding items behind extreme corner case situations that players may never see.

As for the final paragraph, honestly, I don't give a flying firetruck about weapon/armor/shield crafting systems. To me, they're a waste of time that would be far better spent on MORE of those items.
Not following Rust was an incorrect assumption on your fault. It was more like the game telling you that you needed to work for the best stiletto and one of the best rogue weapons in the game. And in fact was an enjoyable sequence you missed out on. You can't blame the game for your decision.

Edited by Verde, 16 March 2019 - 07:12 AM.


#114
Verde

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That would be Josh Sawyer. I don't think he will do that. I also think he didn't create this system on a whim.

He had this problem in mind:

You play the game and started as a Swashbuckler with Rapier and feathered hat. Suddenly you find a very good two handed axe. The longer you play the more you realize that you won't find a Rapier that is just half as good. You are frustrated.

Balanced loot will prevent that. You will still find stuff that may be better than the stuff you opted for - but it will not give you the feeling that you took the supergimpy way.

A very reasonable approach in my opinion. It also works well as far as I am concerned. I never had the "oh crap I'm not a paladin" moment that I had when I found stuff like Carsomyr +5 in the loot of the dragon I just defeated.

You won't have to retrain just in order to free yourself from a trap choice when it comes to loot. You can retrain - however - if you feel you want something else from your character (for whatever reason). Both is there to prevent frustration with the route you took - not to cater to powergames who like to try out builds. That's only a side-effect of balanced loot.

Well, if that was Sawyer's reasoning, then no wonder the loot feels so crappy.
1. If you can't find a rapier that is half as good as the axe, then the solution is to create a rapier that is good as the axe or at least close to it. The solution is not to create conditionals on pretty much every item and thus multiplying "Oh ****, I am not a paldin" moments. Case and point, finding a shield in PoE2 that is great only if you have a high athletics skill, thus creating "Oh ****, I don't have a high athletics skill" moment and forcing you to respec, which I already explained why is anthithetical to the RPG genre.
2. It is not clear to me that balance is something that players are really concerned about. These types of games have never been balanced and there were always classes and items that were just better then everything else. Considering the amount of variations and possible builds, that is unavoidable, I'm afraid. Even in PoE2 there are numerous builds/combinations that are just objectively better than others, so if he thinks he achieved balance - well he didn't. He just ruined the loot system.
3. Whether catering to powergamers was a side effect or the main goal is irrelevant. That is the actual result of his design philosophy and I think it does a lot more harm than good for the genre.
So what swords did you collect that feel underwhelming to the first sword you crafted?

Edited by Verde, 16 March 2019 - 07:27 AM.


#115
RedKnight

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So what swords did you collect that feel underwhelming to the first sword you crafted.

I'm really bad with remembering names, so I'm afraid I can't just give you that information. But I was very thorough. It took me 180 hours to finish the game and I left no stone unturned. I visited all the islands and did pretty much all the quests. Either way, I had 4 or 5 rows of unique weapons in my inventory stash, so you can do the math yourself. I think it's fair to say that I found pretty much every unique weapon and armor in the game.

Of course, since I don't follow any guides, I might have missed a few. I do remember someone mentioning Voidwheel as beeing this amazing super weapon on these forums and I remember I definitely had that one. I even fully upgraded and tried it for a few encounters only to put it away after not finding much use for it. Similar experience with every other piece of equipment I found in the game.

In PoE1 every few hours I found a new piece of equipment that just brough a smile to my face. Here, after reaching max level (which I managed to do very early on), most items were just... "eh"... or "hmm... maybe..." or "meh"... or "well that would be cool if I had that skill"... or..."Hell no! Am not goona carry an injury for that bonus"... or "completely useless in comparison to what I already have".

Again, the only RPG that ever left me feeling that way and I played hundreds of RPGs through my life. I guess the only way they could have screwed it more is if the loot was auto-scaling to your level like in Skyrim or Divinity Original sin. But even there, at least the numbers are constantly going up, instead of loot just ending up in your stash, because you didn't find any use for it.

Edited by RedKnight, 16 March 2019 - 08:10 AM.


#116
Crucis

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1. Is not correct though. Rust is fairly easy to beat down with a full party. And once he teleports away to the entrance to the narrows you just have to follow him. Then a hand-drawn-sheet-based mini-adventure follows where you have to track him through the narrows (which is easy) and then kill him in a final showdown. So all in all it's fairly easy to get such a powerful weapon so early. I guess you just missed the opportunity to follow him into the narrows - which is understandable sice it's not so obvious that you can do this.

Azure Blade's ACC bonus kind of always works by the way. Either it's bugged or the radius is like 20m or so. Either way: it's like a permanent +15 ACC bonus.

Together those two are pretty awesome. But it's only two unfortunately.

I agree that some weapon groups came with too many uniques while others are too few. But that's also a result of the crowdfunding. Lots of people who pledged for the weapon tier insisted on creating a sword or a great sword.

Also the system of uniques and enchantments (lash on everything etc.) from PoE was criticized heavily. "Every weapon is the same in PoE!!11!11" stuff. So the devs went and invented this new system where every unique has its own unique enchantment tree. This - naturally - requires a lot more work and can only lead to less uniques compared to the old, more uniform system.

I didn't bother trying to run Rust down. I just assumed that that was the game's way of giving the player a big bleep you.

As for the crowd funding, that's just dumb. They shouldn't have allowed that outcome to even be possible. I don't care if there are exacctly the same number of unique weapons or armors of each type. But there should have been at least, say, 3-4 for each type, with any beyond that being gravy. This number probably shouldn't include pre-order items. And frankly, shouldn't include items on those "revenge ships", I think someone called them. I'm NOT fond of hiding items behind extreme corner case situations that players may never see.

As for the final paragraph, honestly, I don't give a flying firetruck about weapon/armor/shield crafting systems. To me, they're a waste of time that would be far better spent on MORE of those items.
Not following Rust was an incorrect assumption on your fault. It was more like the game telling you that you needed to work for the best stiletto and one of the best rogue weapons in the game. And in fact was an enjoyable sequence you missed out on. You can't blame the game for your decision.

 

 

Sorry, but I will blame the game.  I was willing to engage in a big nasty fight to get the dagger.  But when I see a character run away like that, my automatic assumption is going to be that it's the devs flipping me off.  Imagine how a one time only player is going to see it.    It was a silly decision to do it this way.



#117
xzar_monty

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So what swords did you collect that feel underwhelming to the first sword you crafted.


Again, the only RPG that ever left me feeling that way and I played hundreds of RPGs through my life. I guess the only way they could have screwed it more is if the loot was auto-scaling to your level like in Skyrim or Divinity Original sin. But even there, at least the numbers are constantly going up, instead of loot just ending up in your stash, because you didn't find any use for it.

 

 

There aren't hundreds of RPGs in existence. If you can get the number up to one hundred, great. But at that point you aren't even halfway there, going by the most charitable definition possible.



#118
Verde

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180 hrs? Wow I didnt even realize there was that much content lol. My completionist playthroughs are about 80 hrs but I dont have SSS dlc installed.

I mean you're entitled to your opinion, personally I felt similar to you on my first playthrough and then realized the upgrades really made certain builds. Now I always give Eder Bardatto's Luxury with Con affl immunity and if I'm a rogue I start out with Duskfall and eventually move onto the Flails (weird I know). Honestly it's not so much your opinion but the way you presented it ;)

#119
Verde

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1. Is not correct though. Rust is fairly easy to beat down with a full party. And once he teleports away to the entrance to the narrows you just have to follow him. Then a hand-drawn-sheet-based mini-adventure follows where you have to track him through the narrows (which is easy) and then kill him in a final showdown. So all in all it's fairly easy to get such a powerful weapon so early. I guess you just missed the opportunity to follow him into the narrows - which is understandable sice it's not so obvious that you can do this.

Azure Blade's ACC bonus kind of always works by the way. Either it's bugged or the radius is like 20m or so. Either way: it's like a permanent +15 ACC bonus.

Together those two are pretty awesome. But it's only two unfortunately.

I agree that some weapon groups came with too many uniques while others are too few. But that's also a result of the crowdfunding. Lots of people who pledged for the weapon tier insisted on creating a sword or a great sword.

Also the system of uniques and enchantments (lash on everything etc.) from PoE was criticized heavily. "Every weapon is the same in PoE!!11!11" stuff. So the devs went and invented this new system where every unique has its own unique enchantment tree. This - naturally - requires a lot more work and can only lead to less uniques compared to the old, more uniform system.

I didn't bother trying to run Rust down. I just assumed that that was the game's way of giving the player a big bleep you.

As for the crowd funding, that's just dumb. They shouldn't have allowed that outcome to even be possible. I don't care if there are exacctly the same number of unique weapons or armors of each type. But there should have been at least, say, 3-4 for each type, with any beyond that being gravy. This number probably shouldn't include pre-order items. And frankly, shouldn't include items on those "revenge ships", I think someone called them. I'm NOT fond of hiding items behind extreme corner case situations that players may never see.

As for the final paragraph, honestly, I don't give a flying firetruck about weapon/armor/shield crafting systems. To me, they're a waste of time that would be far better spent on MORE of those items.
Not following Rust was an incorrect assumption on your fault. It was more like the game telling you that you needed to work for the best stiletto and one of the best rogue weapons in the game. And in fact was an enjoyable sequence you missed out on. You can't blame the game for your decision.
Sorry, but I will blame the game. I was willing to engage in a big nasty fight to get the dagger. But when I see a character run away like that, my automatic assumption is going to be that it's the devs flipping me off. Imagine how a one time only player is going to see it. It was a silly decision to do it this way.
You were willing to engage under your terms, if it was a 5v1 easy fight. Sounds like the game outsmarted you haha.

Edited by Verde, 16 March 2019 - 08:29 AM.


#120
Boeroer

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Well, if that was Sawyer's reasoning, then no wonder the loot feels so crappy.

Only speak for yourself. Enough people already stated that they don't feel this way.
 

1. If you can't find a rapier that is half as good as the axe, then the solution is to create a rapier that is good as the axe or at least close to it.

That's exactly what happened. "Balanced" loot so that you are not forced to use those few superweapons.
 

The solution is not to create conditionals on pretty much every item

This is extreme hyperbole. Go to the wiki and collect the items with "conditionals" and you'll only end up with a few that have any conditional at all. Unless we define "conditional" in different ways. Like "subject to, implying, or dependent upon a condition". I guess you mean stuff like carrying an injury to unlock a bonus - that kind of stuff (by the way there are only three itms that do this and they are all part of a set that is themed around a Barb named Rekvu who got even stronger if she got injured - which is pretty cool I think).
 

finding a shield in PoE2 that is great only if you have a high athletics skill, thus creating "Oh ****, I don't have a high athletics skill" moment and forcing you to respec

But in reality you can find several shields in Deadfire that work equally well without having to skill Athletics. You are speaking of Cadhu Scalth which can scale with Athletics and Metaphysics. Two things here: 1. the shield works very well even without any skillpoint in Athletics or Metaphysics. Because those enchantments start at certain value (not 0) and only scale moderately even when you dump all skillpoints into it. And 2. there are enough large shield alternatives that don't use skills for scaling, such as Bronlar's Phalanx, Shining Bulwark and Akola's Apex Ward - and that's only the large shields. And none of them is that much more powerful than the others but all have their unique enchantments that can be very useful.
 

2. It is not clear to me that balance is something that players are really concerned about.

That's unfortunate. But apparently there are enough gamers who care. Even in this forum you are in the minority so far. I strongly believe that game developers know their custmers better than a random individual player with no access to telemetry, market research, a network of fellow developers and developing experience. I am concerned about balance and I know at least 5 active, resourceful and reasonable board members who do care a lot about balance.
 

These types of games have never been balanced and there were always classes and items that were just better then everything else. Considering the amount of variations and possible builds, that is unavoidable, I'm afraid. Even in PoE2 there are numerous builds/combinations that are just objectively better than others, so if he thinks he achieved balance - well he didn't. He just ruined the loot system.

That's only your opinion. The goal was not to totally equalize all loot and builds. The goal was to prevent trap builds and choices like the old infinity games had a ton of. That goal was achieved and in my opinion it was achieved elegantly. Also the multiclass system was designed with this premise and it turned out really well I think.
 

3. Whether catering to powergamers was a side effect or the main goal is irrelevant. That is the actual result of his design philosophy and I think it does a lot more harm than good for the genre.

That might be your believe, but I see no evidence nor even a hint that the loot of Deadfire harms the RPG genre at all.
 

In PoE1 every few hours I found a new piece of equipment that just brough a smile to my face. Here, after reaching max level (which I managed to do very early on), most items were just... "eh"... or "hmm... maybe..." or "meh"... or "well that would be cool if I had that skill"... or..."Hell no! Am not goona carry an injury for that bonus"... or "completely useless in comparison to what I already have".

Besides the repeated unneccessary hyperbole this is highly subjective and also not a correct observation. The loot of Deadfire is much more differentiated than the loot of PoE. That's in the nature of new tree-like enchantment system. The new non-uniform enchantment system alone ensures that unique items cannot develop the same features like they did in PoE (like: having a lash, being legendary and being durgan-refined/reinforced). One of the fiercest criticism of PoE was that the loot felt undistinguishable and bland because all weapons and armors could be enchanted in the same way which many players described as boring. I don't agree - but that's the overwhelming feedback Obsdian got. So... somehow something's not matching if you compare PoE's to Deadfire's loot system and claim that the first one is a lot more interesting that the second's. It surely isn't an objective point of view since so few players agree with you. This criticism wasn't brought up a lot since the release of Deadfire. Lots of complaints about PEN/AR, story, difficulty and whatnot - but I didn't read a lot of complaints about loot.

You can of course feel that way - but don't act as if your aversion is a confirmation that a) the designers did a poor job and b) the loot system of Deadfire damages the RPG genre.

Edited by Boeroer, 16 March 2019 - 09:07 AM.





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