Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Deadfire Polishing Thread

polishing balance bugs

  • Please log in to reply
253 replies to this topic

#141
thelee

thelee

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1731 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Deadfire in general seems to shy away from stackable accuracy buffs in general, which considering they've also flattened enemy deflection a lot is probably a fair thing.
 
Also re cipher: let's be honest, the class needs a ground up redesign that turn--based is only going to make more apparent. It basically only shines in the vancian challenge mode and POE1's vancian world for a reason; the capability to self-buff/self heal at least would work around that in terms of giving them more things to do than hope to stack enough focus to cast a level 9 power that's worse than ryngrim's terror after a few rounds of grazes. If focus is going to keep working the way it does at the very least either costs are too high or their spells need to be dropped down in cast times across the board.


I can't speak for turn-based, but in terms of RtWP I fully disagree with this characterization of the cipher. People keep talking about Ryngrim's spell and all that tells me is that that spell is way too good for AL5 (my best guess is that it was a direct import from PoE1 and they forgot that terrified in Deadfire is way more powerful than in PoE1). Ciphers already have pretty fast cast times, btw.
 

I'm not sure it's been brought up in here and I figure it's not necessarily the purview, but every class with flat additive damage sources, the devs massively overvalue them; weapon mastery's +15% is definitely not worth two talents on fighter, and conversely trickster only giving up 10% on sneak attacks without otherwise affecting how they scale with PL makes it really hard to pass up trickster if neither streetfighter nor assassin seem interesting; I think it's the same with biting whip.


It was raised on earlier pages, but my general perspective is "overvalued compared to what?" There's not a lot of ways to boost damage via talents, so much like the relative sparsity of accuracy in Deadfire, the damage boosts become comparatively better. Unconditional (or close to unconditional) damage boosts are extremely uncommon, and you don't need a lot to make a notable difference. I think the trickster "only" giving up 10% is bad not because 10% (unscaling) isn't worth much, but because the trickster gains back way way way way way way more than that in new capabilities or higher sneak attack uptime. Even if the penalty scaled, the trickster would still be utterly worth the trade-off, and heck they could completely lack sneak attack and the trickster would be a viable class.

I think I can get on board with the fact that the +5% fighter damage boost is unnecessary. Linear returns means additional same% boosts are worth relatively less, so it really seems like they could have had both talents provide +10% and the "intrinsic diminishing returns" (MaxQuest's turn of phrase) takes care of balancing out the higher-end talent that *requires* this earlier talent to pick up...

Edited by thelee, 26 March 2019 - 05:37 AM.

  • Ophiuchus likes this

#142
Phenomenum

Phenomenum

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 727 posts
  • Location:Russian Federation, Saint Petersburg
About Trickster Sneak attack. Hohestly, i think this is a very gentle penalty. Since SA scaled by +5% each PL, this -10% penalty became far less noticeble with character progression. -20% at least should make some difference on low-mid levels.

And no, penalty is not scaling. It's implemented as dedicated status effect "Trickster Sneak attack" with Damage multiplier = 1.2, instead of 1.3.

Edited by Phenomenum, 19 March 2019 - 08:45 AM.


#143
thelee

thelee

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1731 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

About Trickster Sneak attack. Hohestly, i think this is a very gentle penalty. Since SA scaled by +5% each PL, this -10% penalty became far less noticeble with character progression. -20% at least should make some difference on low-mid levels.


ironically, this -10% penalty is less severe than when the trickster had much worse bonus spells (and more expensive, to boot). i think this is a rare case of where they overcompensated and tuned something up too much, TBH

(trickster did in fact use to have -20% penalty pre-1.2)

Edited by thelee, 19 March 2019 - 08:47 AM.


#144
Phenomenum

Phenomenum

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 727 posts
  • Location:Russian Federation, Saint Petersburg
In addition: Devoted penalty is also too soft. Not in terms of value itself, but in terms that it's not works - Devoted use one weapon most of the time, with HUGE pen bonus without any drawbacks, and -10 Acc for other weapons it's like a joke.

#145
Phenomenum

Phenomenum

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 727 posts
  • Location:Russian Federation, Saint Petersburg
(trickster did in fact use to have -20% penalty pre-1.2)

Hm. Strange. Too much love for Tricksters from someone in Obsidian))

Can we revert it to -20%? What do you think?

Edited by Phenomenum, 19 March 2019 - 08:59 AM.


#146
DubiousNixie

DubiousNixie

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 14 posts
Ciphers already have pretty fast cast times, btw.

Fast cast and long recoveries makes ascended a huge trap option in turn-based for one; by the time you have access to disintegrate, ascending gives you 3 rounds to cast 3 disintegrates (which are slow casts on a class that has basically no way to get concentration outside of Soul Blade melee kills) at +1 PL, the focus cost however would be enough to cast 4-5 of them on another spec.

 

If anything I'd say it doesn't make it a trap option as much as it shows how much of one it already is, it just makes the structural issue of the concept more blatant.

 

That said I realize that you seem to be fine with the fact that cipher's literal only niche is charms, which makes me wonder how did you not see the problem against Intellect immune and resistant enemies.

 

 

 

Too much love for Tricksters from someone in Obsidian))

Honestly it's more that they went from not worth taking to worth taking too much; the same patch that toned down their penalty also gave them illusion self-buffs on even levels AND reduced casting guile costs across the board. Two of those would have been okay, all three is just absurd.

 

Also my opinion on devoted is that it's actually one of the harshest spec penalties; -10 accuracy on everything that isn't fists and your devoted weapon is a huge deal when you're literally never going to be able to pick up something else. The spec basically requires some metagame awareness from the get-go to realize that the most likely best options for that spec are going to be great swords, short swords or sabres by virtue of ease of gearing.


Edited by DubiousNixie, 19 March 2019 - 09:44 AM.


#147
thelee

thelee

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1731 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

Ciphers already have pretty fast cast times, btw.

Fast cast and long recoveries makes ascended a huge trap option in turn-based for one; by the time you have access to disintegrate, ascending gives you 3 rounds to cast 3 disintegrates (which are slow casts on a class that has basically no way to get concentration outside of Soul Blade melee kills) at +1 PL, the focus cost however would be enough to cast 4-5 of them on another spec.
 
If anything I'd say it doesn't make it a trap option as much as it shows how much of one it already is, it just makes the structural issue of the concept more blatant.
 
That said I realize that you seem to be fine with the fact that cipher's literal only niche is charms, which makes me wonder how did you not see the problem against Intellect immune and resistant enemies.

 

 
TB-mode is its own balancing problem and I suspect (or hope) that they address the cipher. If we're focusing in on ascendant, a single class ascendant with minimal metagaming can still get huge efficiency out of ascendant status at least in real-time-with-pause. It's not a trap option. (The ascendant also has huge focus generation, so even if you're not gunning for ascendant status and can eat the PL penalty without problem, you get huge quantity over quality)
 
But I disagree with TB just accentuating cipher's structural problems. A cipher gains structural problems because TB mode really upends the action economy, which was fairly carefully balanced over basically many years (including PoE1) and backer betas (Deadfire BB which reduced cipher cast times across the board).
 

That said I realize that you seem to be fine with the fact that cipher's literal only niche is charms, which makes me wonder how did you not see the problem against Intellect immune and resistant enemies.


Ciphers excel at charms and are literally the only player-accessible class that can dominate, but that is far from their "only niche."

 

Ciphers are not in my top-played class (priest is def #1, probably followed closely by rogue or wizard) but at this even point even I have to ask "bro, do you even cipher?"


  • Phenomenum and Ophiuchus like this

#148
Phenomenum

Phenomenum

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 727 posts
  • Location:Russian Federation, Saint Petersburg

Fast cast and long recoveries makes ascended a huge trap option in turn-based for one; by the time you have access to disintegrate, ascending gives you 3 rounds to cast 3 disintegrates (which are slow casts on a class that has basically no way to get concentration outside of Soul Blade melee kills) at +1 PL, the focus cost however would be enough to cast 4-5 of them on another spec.

 

If anything I'd say it doesn't make it a trap option as much as it shows how much of one it already is, it just makes the structural issue of the concept more blatant.

 

That said I realize that you seem to be fine with the fact that cipher's literal only niche is charms, which makes me wonder how did you not see the problem against Intellect immune and resistant enemies.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that it's better to leave TB balance to Obsidian for now. It's not right to make any suggestions, based on beta. And more that that - it's not right to suggest rebalance half of the cipher spells for TB.

So it's better be close this topic (cipher dpells i mean) until TB release.

 

About Devoted. Yes, it's meta-class, but you can pick Devoted Monk with Swords and Fists and have all three damage types with high Pen bonus with no penalty.


  • thelee likes this

#149
Taudis

Taudis

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 91 posts

 

Ciphers already have pretty fast cast times, btw.

Fast cast and long recoveries makes ascended a huge trap option in turn-based for one; by the time you have access to disintegrate, ascending gives you 3 rounds to cast 3 disintegrates (which are slow casts on a class that has basically no way to get concentration outside of Soul Blade melee kills) at +1 PL, the focus cost however would be enough to cast 4-5 of them on another spec.
 
If anything I'd say it doesn't make it a trap option as much as it shows how much of one it already is, it just makes the structural issue of the concept more blatant.
 
That said I realize that you seem to be fine with the fact that cipher's literal only niche is charms, which makes me wonder how did you not see the problem against Intellect immune and resistant enemies.

 

 

It's super easy to get Ascended to hit 4 rounds, and quite possible to get it to hit 5. It's also +3 PL iirc and Ascending is so easy in most fights that it's basically a free bonus.

 

The whole "niche" thing also puts the burden of proof on Ciphers. Like, what niche does a Wizard have? Nuking? Druids arguably nuke better. So do some Priests, TBH. Self-buffs? What self buffs do they have that're better than a Cipher's +20 everything in Borrowed Instinct? Are they better at self-buffs than a Fighter/Trickster or a Priest of Wael? Debuffing? Only if you don't count single target, because every martial class beats them there. Versatility? Can you call that a niche in a system so friendly to multiclassing? I of course think Wizards are quite potent with any of these things as their "niche" but the point is that they're not actually niches. Cipher being the clear best at Charms might actually have them as the only class that does have a niche.

 

Ciphers also do have a bunch of individually powerful abilities. Disintegration has got to be at least top 3 for action-time-spent-to-total-damage-done if it isn't straight up the best in that area. Borrowed Instinct is one of the best self-buffs (+20 everything!) and it adds a fairly unique debuff on top of that for just 0.5/4.0 seconds cast time. Psychovampiric Shield is another potent self-buff/stackable debuff that's also a source of concentration and is cheap and fast enough to open combat to all but guarantee your other abilities don't get interrupted (EDIT: Mixed up what Steadfast and Resolute do). Hammering Thoughts and The Empty Soul are strong unique passives. I could go on.

 

I don't really understand the issue with ciphers and TB either. I actually think they feel more natural to play in TB - you tend to only do one round or two rounds of focus gen, allowing you to be mostly a caster if you want to. Is that the 0.5/4.0 cast time powers are effectively nerfed to last 6.0 seconds?

 

 

Trickster stuff

 

I don't really have a big issue with -20% sneak attack damage (Tricksters would still be good enough even with that penalty) but -10% is currently fine for putting them solidly in their role of "rogue subclass where defensive tricks and debuffs are the focus over damage". Plus the actual penalty of a Trickster is sustain. Even being fairly cheap, their spells eat through Guile like crazy and compete with abilities that are the reason to be playing a Rogue and not a Wizard. It's way too close to "not broken, so don't fix it" IMO.


Edited by Taudis, 19 March 2019 - 04:39 PM.


#150
DubiousNixie

DubiousNixie

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 14 posts

By the time you get Borrowed Instinct (which you can only open a fight with at level 18) a wizard can chain cast enough self buffs in your recovery time to stack more nspirations at the time when it actually matters 99% of the time, namely the opening of a fight. Llengrath's Martial Mysteries literally makes a completely unoptimized mage better at cipher's striker role than a cipher. Even taking into account that Citzal's Martial Mysteries is PL7 and Borrowed Instinct is PL5 most of the useful mage melee buffs are still lower level than both, and by the time a single-class wizard gets CMM, a cipher is still gong to be unable to open a fight with Borrowed Instinct for a couple levels.

 

Seriously the striker designation (which I will remind is the only thing it's designed for besides CC according to the game, not support) is utterly misleading for anything but a multiclass annihilation battery and most of the striker toolkit there comes from focusing on **** that isn't actually cipher.

 

Gripes aside: Borrowed Instinct and Psychovampiric shield don't seem to be considered proper afflictions on the target which seems backwards.


Edited by DubiousNixie, 19 March 2019 - 04:39 PM.


#151
Taudis

Taudis

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 91 posts

By the time you get Borrowed Instinct (which you can only open a fight with at level 18) a wizard can chain cast enough self buffs in your recovery time to stack more nspirations at the time when it actually matters 99% of the time, namely the opening of a fight. Llengrath's Martial Mysteries literally makes a completely unoptimized mage better at cipher's striker role than a cipher. Even taking into account that Citzal's Martial Mysteries is PL7 and Borrowed Instinct is PL5 most of the useful mage melee buffs are still lower level than both, and by the time a single-class wizard gets CMM, a cipher is still gong to be unable to open a fight with Borrowed Instinct for a couple levels.

 
Level 18+ can be like half the game's content if you don't have a slow XP mod. How fast you can hit level cap is a whole different can of worms wrt game balance but as long as you can play a good chunk of the game at level 20, things being at their best at high level can't be regarded as a serious barrier.
 
A Wizard emptying half their spellbook on Inspirations (from spells that often don't even cleanly stack) is not really comparable to a Cipher casting a single powerful buff that also debuffs an enemy and stacks with all inspirations/afflictions. Nor is Citzal's Martial Power a reasonable comparison to Borrowed Instinct, considering it shuts off your casting for 30 or more seconds and takes long enough to cast that it's interruptable. I basically don't agree with what you're saying here, and you're not providing actual numbers/concrete examples to back it up. You're essentially looking at small parts of the two classes in a vacuum, which is a useless way to evaluate them in a party/multiclass game.

 

Seriously the striker designation is utterly misleading for anything but a multiclass annihilation battery and most of the striker toolkit there comes from focusing on **** that isn't actually cipher.

 

Hammering Thoughts, Soul Whip, and Soul Annihilation I'd say contribute plenty to a striker toolkit, and that's before potential Cipher buffs/debuffs.



#152
DubiousNixie

DubiousNixie

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Hammering Thoughts, Soul Whip, and Soul Annihilation I'd say contribute plenty to a striker toolkit, and that's before potential Cipher buffs/debuffs.

 

I fully agree, they're great. As a multiclass, it's okay if amazingly boring, pity that it's a use case where you're better off taking as few cipher abilities as possible.

 

They also don't work as single class strikers. They have no mobility, their self defences are less powerful than mage spells of equivalent power level especially once you account for wizard buff casting times and durations most of the time (borrowed instinct is a high-level exception), they have no way to recover from messing up which even rogues get even if they don't get self healing. It's deeply lacklustre.

 

At the very least non-charm CCs in the first game made it possible to get around that.

 

"But it's a striker for advanced players" just confirms my impression, that just means you need to do a lot of working around core class problems to get the same effect as something better like, say, any kind of rogue besides maybe assassin.


Edited by DubiousNixie, 19 March 2019 - 05:44 PM.


#153
Phenomenum

Phenomenum

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 727 posts
  • Location:Russian Federation, Saint Petersburg

@DubiousNixie

 

I think, i'll express the general opinion, that we all tired of your whining. Please, stop. Cipher is ok. If you feel any troubles or discomfort playing cipher, i suppose it's only yours personal problems. Create a mod according to your tastes and be happy. No one (neither here, and of course, nor in Obsibian) will don't do anything, becose one's poor Nixie can't play single class cipher as self-buffed damage dealer. :verymad:



#154
Rangerpetheaven

Rangerpetheaven

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Someone has probably already said it but Corpse Eater needs a change. Thematically a cannibalistic warrior in a South Seas inspired setting is great but mechanically it is not quite there. A passive on kill effect would be a simple fix but it would be a shame to waste the animation/concept of eating the corpse. Maybe add a further power level buff on eating a corpse?



#155
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 15266 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Or take away the higher Rage cost through the board (which is the main problem) and give him another penalty. Universal Power Level gain on eating a corpse is also a nice idea though. Eating kith meat (and food made from it) only gives PL bonuses for Barb abilites unfortunately.  



#156
Rangerpetheaven

Rangerpetheaven

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 8 posts

The current Corpse Eater could have no penalty and wouldn't even be that much stronger than the generic barb, just give him -5 reflex  :grin:



#157
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 15266 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Unfortunately there's no Charisma stat. Would be the perfect thing to put a penalty on. ;)

Edited by Boeroer, 21 March 2019 - 08:49 AM.


#158
Taudis

Taudis

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 91 posts

A penalty to Diplomacy and Bluff would be kind of like a Charisma penalty. That's basically non-existent as a penalty on a hireling, though.

 

Or you could remove the recovery from Flesh Communion, that might be enough of a buff.



#159
Verde

Verde

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1661 posts
  • Steam:DragonSoundxSG
The idea of eating a corpse during battle is odd. I think they should be able to create consumable food from corpses after battle for use in the next battles.

Edited by Verde, 23 March 2019 - 03:39 PM.


#160
Rangerpetheaven

Rangerpetheaven

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 8 posts

 Imagine some sort of heart extracting Mortal Kombat style fatality on near death enemies, letting you get on kill effects and giving you rage, I would accept abilities costing 2 more rage in exchange for that. Maybe in POE3.....

 Something else that I think could be improved is the ship combat, a greater accuracy penalty for shooting outside cannon ranges and a reduction in crew injuries would make things more fun for me. 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: polishing, balance, bugs

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users