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Deadfire Polishing Thread

polishing balance bugs

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#41
Phenomenum

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Hello there! I desided to add another topic for discussion: Keywords.

 

In general, most abilities have proper keywords, with a few exeptions, but Priests spells is a mess. Looks like Obsidian wanted divide Priests subclasses in the same manner as wizards, then they dropped this idea, but spell keywords was not changed.

 

Yesterday i made a thoughtful inspection of all spells and made a conclusion about CURRENT rules:

 

Condemnation - spells with this keyword applies Afflictions and other debuffs. Seems logical.

Punishment - spells with this keyword deals damage - punish enemies. Logical too.

Inspiration - spells with this keyword grants Inspirations to allies of self. Fine.

Protection - spells with this keyword grants bonuses to ally's defences, summon creatures (for protection i presume), prevent death and reduses hostile effects duration.

Fire / Frost / Electr etc - this keywords used for damage/punishment spells with elemental damage.

 

Seems fine, but a lot of spells drops out of the general order. So here's my suggestions:

 

Priest general spells keywords:

Blessing: Protection >>> Inspiration (Grants Inspiration)
Iconic Projection: Restoration, Condemnation >>> Restoration, Punishment, Frost (Health recovery, deals Freeze damage)
Watchful Presence: Protection >>> Protection, Restoration (Health recovery when Near death)
Shining Beacon: Punishment, Fire >>> Condemnation, Punishment, Fire (Applies debuff on foes, deals Fire damage)
All "Prayers" and "Litanies": Protection >>> Inspiration (Grants Inspirations)
Triumph of the Crusaders: Restoration >>> Restoration, Inspiration (Grants Inspiration)
Champion's Boon: Condemnation, Inspiration >>> Inspiration (Grants Resolyte and Tenacious Inspiration - why is Condemnation here???)
Minor Intercession: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)
Ressurection: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection (Reviving, Health recovery, prevents death)
Sumbol of Wael: Inspiration >>> Inspiration, Punishment, Frost (Grants Inspiration to allies, deals Freeze damage to enemies in AoE)
Blessing of Wael: Inspiration >>> Protection, Condemnation (Grants bonus to all defences for allies, applies debuff on attackers)
Symbol of Eothas: Restoration >>> Protection, Punishment, Fire (Grants bonus to all defences, deals Fire damage)
Light of Eothas: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)
Call of Rymrgand: Condemnation, Frost >>> Condemnation, Punishment, Frost (Applies debuff on foes, deals Freeze damage)
Symbol of Berath: Punishment >>> Punishment, Condemnation (applies debuff on foes)
Hand of Berath: Punishment >>> Condemnation (applies debuff on foes)
Cleansing Flame: Condemnation, Cleansing, Fire >>> Condemnation, Cleansing, Punishment, Fire (Deals Fire damage, applies debuff on foes)
Symbol of Magran: Cleansing, Fire >>> Condemnation, Cleansing, Punishment, Fire (Feals Fire damage, applies debuff on foes)
Symbol of Skaen: Condemnation >>> Condemnation, Punishment (Applies debuff on foes, deals damage)
Spiritual Ally: Protection >>> Summon Creature Keyword, Protection (Summon ally for help and protect, attack have the same two Keywords but not Ability)
Incarnate spells: Punishment >>> Summon Creature Keyword, Protection, Condemnation (Applies debuff on self, summon allies for help and protect, attack have Summon Creature Keyword but not Ability)

Class specific spells:

 

Apreading Plague (Berath): Decay >>> Condemnation, Decay (Applies debuffs)
Rusted Armor (Berath): Decay >>> Condemnation, Decay (Applies debuffs)
Sunbeam (Eothas): Fire, Elements >>> Punishment, Condemnation, Fire, Elements (Deals Fire damage, applies debuff)
Fun of Flames (Magran): Fire, Evocation >>> Punishment, Fire, Evocation (Deals Fire damage)
Flame Shield (Magran): Fire, Evocation >>> Protection, Punishment, Fire, Evocation (Grants protection from Fire, Deals Fire damage)
Torrent of Flame (Magran): Fire, Evocation >>> Punishment, Fire, Evocation (Deals Fire damage)
Arcane Veil (Wael): Conjuration, Veil >>> Protection, Conjuration, Veil (Grants bonus Deflection)
Mirrored Image (Wael): Illusions >>> Protection, Illusions (Grants bonus Deflection)
Lliengrath Displaced Image (Wael): Illusions >>> Protection, Illusions (Grants bonus Deflection)
Confusion (Wael): Mind, Illusions >>> Condemnation, Mind, Illusions (Applies affliction)
Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment (Wael): Mind, Illusions >>> Condemnation, Mind, Illusions (Applies affliction)
Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment (Wael): Illusions, Gaze >>> Condemnation, Illusions, Gaze (Applies affliction)

 

Sounds like fun, eh? :dancing:


Edited by Phenomenum, 06 March 2019 - 12:59 PM.

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#42
thelee

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Hello there! I desided to add another topic for discussion: Keywords.

 

In general, most abilities have proper keywords, with a few exeptions, but Priests spells is a mess. Looks like Obsidian wanted divide Priests subclasses in the same manner as wizards, then they dropped this idea, but spell keywords was not changed.

 

Yesterday i made a thoughtful inspection of all spells and made a conclusion about CURRENT rules:

 

<snip>

 

This is a great gathering of info and suggestions, but the game really needs more things that cares about the priest keywords because otherwise all this hard work is close to a no-op. (This is why I wanted to piggyback on Boeroer's idea of trinkets for items that provide specific effects based on priest keyword.) off the top of my head the most I think I can think of like three items that care about priest-specific keywords (xoti's lantern, mundane shell, and aloth's scepter, and "Cleansing" is never referenced as far as I can tell). druids only fare slightly better item-wise, but their subclasses interact more strongly with their keywords.

 

edit - you left out cleansing :) i think only cleansing flame, magrans' might, and minor intercession have it.


Edited by thelee, 06 March 2019 - 01:10 PM.


#43
Phenomenum

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This is a great gathering of info and suggestions, but the game really needs more things that cares about the priest keywords because otherwise all this hard work is close to a no-op. (This is why I wanted to piggyback on Boeroer's idea of trinkets for items that provide specific effects based on priest keyword.)

 

I agreed. For example, a Xoti's Lantern (+2 PL for Inspiration and Restoration abilities): with current keywords mess the Inspiration bonus simply don't work, becose first Inspiration spell is Dire Blessing, and this is on PL 4, then again - no Inspiration spells until PL 8-9. And not all spells with Health regeneration gains bonus PL (Watchful Presence for example have only Protection keyword).

With this changes Lantern's enchants finally starts to work properly. So i'd want to see more trinkets/accessories like this.



#44
Phenomenum

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edit - you left out cleansing :) i think only cleansing flame, magrans' might, and minor intercession have it.

 

It's not a final list of course)

About Cleansing: maybe we should add a new general rule - Cleansing keyword for spells which reduces hostile/beneficial effect duration. Seems logical to me. Agreed.

 

Currently only 3 spells have Cleansing keyword: Cleansing Flame, Might of Magran and Symbol of Magran. Minor Intercession curently is only Restoration.

 

So +2 Cleansing spells in a moment (need to look at whole spells list again):

 

Minor Intercession: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection >>> Restoration, Cleansing (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)

Light of Eothas: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection >>> Restoration, Cleansing (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)

 

The main question is: substitute Protection keyword with Cleansing OR add Cleansing keyword in addition to Protection keyword? :huh:

Seem like i need to count all keywords uses) Becose if we substitute Protection, then will be a less spells with Protection keyword.


Edited by Phenomenum, 06 March 2019 - 01:37 PM.


#45
Taudis

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Suggested Polishes Review (Spoilered for length):

Spoiler

 

RE: The whole Priest/Druid thing:

I don't think they need to step on the toes of the Wizard and have a huge amount of spells accessible. Wizards being able to use books to expand their knowledge is thematic and fills a niche. The vancian casters all start to feel same-y (with each other not necessarily within their individual class) at the highest levels, and I think wider spell access for Druid and Priest would only expound on this problem.

 

I also feel like their spell access being off actually specifically a Priest issue. Druid subclasses actually have good auto-picks at every level and Druid spells in general (with one or two exceptions) aren't situational. Most of the CC has decent damage riders, and each spell is very good at what it's supposed to do. While I don't think one Fury is going to look very different from another Fury, it will look fairly different from a Lifegiver or an Ancient. An individual Druid will cast the same spells over and over of course but they don't step on the toes of other subs, which I think is a fairly successful design - you really shouldn't be able to use a trinket to rapidly change from being a Lifegiver into an Ancient. The only area Druids could use some buffing in is Shifting.

 

I think the Priest could use less situational spells and more passives. I'd love to see improvements available to Holy Radiance and possibly to have each subclass gain either a modified Holy Radiance or a similar 1/encounter thematic Power of the Deity ability. Some spell level rebalancing might be helpful too, I suppose. Priests definitely have certain levels that are underwhelming. IMO each level should have two strong damage options and two strong healing/buffing options. They could maybe also use some more Shock/Acid spells to justify having Spirit of Decay and Heart of the Storm.


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#46
thelee

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I'd love to see improvements available to Holy Radiance and possibly to have each subclass gain either a modified Holy Radiance or a similar 1/encounter thematic Power of the Deity ability. Some spell level rebalancing might be helpful too, I suppose. Priests definitely have certain levels that are underwhelming. IMO each level should have two strong damage options and two strong healing/buffing options. They could maybe also use some more Shock/Acid spells to justify having Spirit of Decay and Heart of the Storm.


Speaking in a personal capacity, I feel like these changes could make sense but are probably a bit out of scope for a "polish" set of changes since I don't think MaxQuest is looking to get ideas for completely new abilities or passives. Though, it unnerved me to no end in BB and release that Spirit of Decay and Heart of the Storm are in priest talent tree at AL4 but the former has literally 0 effect for anyone not a Berathian, and the latter has 0 effect until AL8 (Spark the Souls of the Righteous) due to broken hazard keyword handling. For a class I generally like and find well-balanced, they are clear trap choice talents. I reported this soooo many times... (I mean it makes as much sense as the ranger getting Scion of Flame and Spirit of Decay just because the arcane archer has an ability or two that benefit)

Edited by thelee, 06 March 2019 - 03:35 PM.


#47
Phenomenum

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due to broken hazard keyword handling.

 

What did you mean?



#48
thelee

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due to broken hazard keyword handling.


What did you mean?
Hazards aren't consistently affected by many things but the big one is keyword interactions (so wall of fire and warding seal don't benefit from Scion of flame or heart of the storm)

Edited by thelee, 06 March 2019 - 04:04 PM.

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#49
Phenomenum

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Hazards aren't consistently affected by many things but the big one is keyword interactions (so wall of fire and warding seal don't benefit from Scion of flame or heart of the storm)

 

Then it's clearly a bug, becose all these abilities have proper keywords (Punishment and Fire/Electricity) in both abilities.gamedatabundle and attacks.gamedatabundle. I guess something in the code prevents game from reading/using these keywords.

 

U can create a topic in Technical support and write about it. If someone haven't done it already...

 

P.S. Checked remaining spells of all casters. Interesting thing: i have no questions about Wizard's and Chanter's spells keywords, and only a few about Cipher's and Druid's. So Priest spells keywords is the most broken.

 

Cipher keywords:

Antipatetic field: Shred >>> Acid, Shred (deals Corrode damage)
Soul Ignition: Shred >>> Fire, Shred (deals Fire damage)
Ectophysic Echo: Echo >>> Echo, Shred (deals Damage)
Ringleader: Deseption >>> Deseption, Mind (Whispers of Treason and Puppetmaster have Mind keyword)
Time Parasite: Illusions >>> Illusions, Deseption

Druid keywords:

Wildstrikes: Add corresponding keywords (Frost, Fire, Acid, Electricity)
Cleansing Wind: Wind, Elements >>> Wind, Elements, Rejuvenation (Restores Health)
Nature's Bounty: Restoration >>> Rejuvenation (it's the ONLY druid spell with Restoration keyword, which generally used for Priest restoration spells)
Great Maelstorm: missed Frost keyword (also deals Freeze damage)
Aspect of Galawain: Beast >>> Beast, Summon Creature
Conjure Blights spells: add Summon Creature keyword.

 

Priest keywords:

 

+ Holy Radiance: Restoration, Condemnation >>> Restoration, Condemnation, Punishment, Fire (Restores Health, applies debuff, deals Fire damage)

EDIT: Minor Intercession: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection, Cleansing (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)

EDIT: Light of Eothas: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection, Cleansing (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)
 


Edited by Phenomenum, 06 March 2019 - 04:41 PM.


#50
Boeroer

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@thelee: Well, my examples that added 1 spell per PL were just examples. As I said I can totally see trinkets that only add one single spell - or two or three. Not necessarily one per PL progression. And als not necessarily at the usual PL. You could do a trinket that adds a PL 8 spell to your PL 6 or so... endless possibilities basically. ;)

A trinket named "Book of Prayers " that only adds the Prayer and Linany spells and gives them +1 PL could be a thing.

 

I also would like to add "unique" spells that only come with that trinket (I love the unique grimoires). That, added with some "special" features like bonus PL for certain keywords (+2 PL to punishment or whatever), bonus durations, bigger AoE, you name it - should solve the problem that some spell levels of the Priest and his spell selections are very narrow and motivate to use some spells that you normally wouldn't consider. Ot take a route with your build you didn't consider before. 

 

Same with Druids: no need to give them a 1:1 copy of the grimoire mechanics, but add some nice trinkets that are cool, fitting and help them a bit to develop more specific build ideas/routes that are fun. For example: currently there's not much motivation to build a Decay-Druid (not a single item with special Decay bonus afaik - besides Chromopr. Staff that does +1 PL to Acid) while Beast/Plant Druids (Spine of Thicket Green, Ancient), Healer Druids (Lifegiver, Spine of Thicket Green, diverse +healing items), Summons Druid (Ancient, Animancy Cat) and Elemental Druids (Fury, Fire PL bonus gear, Storms PL bonus gear, Shock PL bonus gear) get all the love. Hence my example ot the shrinkhead. 

 

Of course it would be nice if we could find a special approach for both class-trinkets that seperates them from each other (and grimoires) a bit but still keeps things consistent and kind of uniform.

 

 

@Phenomenum: great work!


Edited by Boeroer, 07 March 2019 - 09:21 AM.


#51
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Trinkets for other casting classes seems like a great idea for a mod, but not really "polishing" at this point.

 

 


1. please no. Riposte is already a weird ability in that it is either virtually useless or extremely powerful. Instead of leaning into this more by providing what is essentially a win-more effect, i'd rather flatten this variability (that basically mandates metagaming) and provide a % riposte chance on grazes as well (even if lower than the % riposte chance on miss).

 

Yeah, this is something I was thinking but wasn't sure how to verbalize. Riposte needs an on-graze effect if you're going to use it in anything other than a maximally tweaked deflection build. 

 

 

If we're talking other general mods we'd like to see added, I'd *really* like to see the addition of a mod that unlocked all subclass options for the named companions. Let Eder be unbroken / trickster if you want him to be, etc. Let Aloth be a blood mage. So forth. There are individual mods for a lot of combinations but an across the board one would be great.

 

The other mods I routinely use are

 

1) the one that reduces XP gain by 30%, pretty much a requirement if you're playing the DLC's

 

2) the one that makes all the "cosmic" command-line pets just appear on the beach at the start of the game so you don't have to type in the codes

 

3) there's an existing mod that attempts the keyword expansion above but it may not be complete. Cipher spells especially need elemental keywords added in many cases (acid, electric, etc.) 


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 07 March 2019 - 07:16 AM.


#52
MaxQuest

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it's a hack. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I end up doing hacks all the time in my day job. But fixing game issues by layering hacks on top of that does not make for a better game design, it makes for a more complicated game design, especially considering the realities of coding where you are likely also making it more fragile.

Also: seals can be cast out of combat and stick around for a long time; ever since PoE1 that has basically been their point. Warding Seal is not the best spell in later levels to cast in combat but remains a great spell to cast out of combat (even sometimes better than Searing Seal because Warding Seal's smaller aoe doesn't cause curious people to walk over it while you're sneaking). The only seal that I could see an argument for adjustment is Repulsing Seal, because laying a prone trap out of combat is extremely underwhelming and in-combat faces a tough competition to Pillar of Faith, which does damage and has a longer range. But in effect PL scaling already helps Repulsing Seal quite a bit because it gets +2 acc/PL on top of prone-ing on a graze, two benefits that do not accrue to Pillar of Faith. So... eh

I am not quite sure how to understand the word hack here. It has many meanings, and there is also a language barier.
But if you mean: a solution that is inconsistent with other spells... yeah, I can agree with that. And you have convinced me on this matter.

Just wanted to note that: isn't hazard - a spell or effect that is generally decoupled from it's owner? For example a character layed a trap or seal, and even if it deals shock damage, it doesn't factor his shock penetration talents, because it's a completely separate entity?

Taking this into account, what would you propose?:
- 1) leave these seal spells as they are
- 2) remove the hazard tag
- 3) change all hazards (such that they start benefiting from owners PL, penetration talents, etc). But there might be a risk of CTD in some scenes, if not properly implemented.
- 4) increase cast speed (e.g. from 4.5s to 3.0s) as compensation?
 

Imho, for a quick, yet already beneficial change, enabling just perception is enough. Because scrolls will stop missing that often; while high-ranked spells will still have a better accuracy.

This is my problem with unsystematic changes like this. I don't think you're broadening your perspective enough and combined with other comments it seems you might have a personal bias on making effects more consistent (e.g. accuracy/reliability) versus enabling a broad spectrum of options (the core PoE philosophy). You seem to be mostly just focused landing offensive effects.

It's not that I have some kind of prejudice. But I indeed do have a preference for binary effects being reliable (at least vs unnamed/regular enemies)

I mean, I am fine with damage sometimes missing, because I know that on average my dps is X, and if X suits me it's ok.
But I dislike when a binary effect that I count on, has a chance to do nothing. For example in PoE1: party priest lands painful interdiction, such that cipher can land paralyze, such that my melee dps'er won't get hit by that big (now disabled) guy, and also will have his attack resolution shifted right - which will increase his dps, because graze damage was sensibly reduced by enemy DR.
Now, if that paralyze misses - all this scheme crumbles. And I am pushed towards a safer/sturdier playstyle.


And it's not that I am fixated on hostile effects. I mean if my direct heals had a chance to miss, that would be unpleasant as well.

It still leaves might and intellect as dead stats for people who want to use non-hostile consumables, even though those stats are supposed to be otherwise universal. Enabling might and intellect on top of perception will not break explosives or potions, and will it make it more viable to split your skill points a bit more instead of basically having to invest everything into explosives or alchemy just to get enough PL scaling to use a poison or grenade decently in mid-late game. Yes, scrolls will probably need a rebalancing - frankly the fact that you get arcana/2 PL scaling on top of more powerful effects (that are already gated by a high arcana) is broken game design, but selectively enabling perception will meaningfully skew gameplay choices in the name of "reliability" (hellooooo scrolls of gaze of the adragan).

Completely agree on the dead stats argument. Not to mention that INT does add not only duration, but also area increase. And currently scrolls and bombs are stuck with default AoE.

But again, I would separate this problem in two parts:
1) is it worth to enable perception? And how much effort will it take?
2) is it worth to enable might and intellect? And how much effort will it take?

And speaking of perception, lets compare accuracy of scrolls vs spells, for the aforementioned Gaze of Adragan:
- spell_accuracy = 20 + 19 * 3 + (perception - 10) + class_power_level + power_level_bonus + ability_rank - 2
- scroll_accuracy = 20 + 19 * 3 + arcana/2 + power_level_bonus

With something like: 24 perception, 24 arcana, 9 class_power_level, 2 power_level_bonus, 6 ability_rank, which imo are quite plausible stats, this would be:
- goa_spell_accuracy = 77 + 14 + 9 + 2 + 6 - 2 = 106
- goa_scroll_accuracy = 77 + 12 + 2 = 91
And if scrolls benefited from perception, goa_scroll_accuracy would be: 91 + 14 = 105.
Sure, one could argue that arcana could be higher, but how much higher? 30? But that would add just extra 3 acc over 24 arcana.
Meanwhile enemy fortitude goes up to 189 for megabosses on PotD, and up to 129-150 for non-bosses.
So, does this look broken for a consumable of generally limited supply?
---

Now regarding might and intellect. I do agree that enabling them won't break most of explosives and potions.
But still, this have to be done very carefully.
- intellect has the ability to increase duration for up to x2.25; and area radius up to x1.87
- might has the ability to increase the direct damage for up to x1.75
- and together they can increase the total damage/healing of a periodic/dot/hot effect, by up to x3.93

So this will require the adjusting of all scrolls from PL0 to their matching counterparts. And even then, arcane/2 can go higher than class pl. And this gonna be a quite deep change. I am not sure if it can go under the 'polishing' tag.

P.S. I don't dislike this suggestion. I actually do like consistency. Just have little hope in that Obsidian will make a change that is not quick enough to implement.
 

Plus, no other heal in Deadfire scales with character level, it would still make the moon godlike effect stupidly good. In PoE1 the character scaling was an attempt to keep it relevant into the late game, and it was too good (and it wasn't unique; Holy Radiance also scaled with character level and combined with disposition scaling was stupidly good). With your suggested scaling you are supplanting PL scaling mechanism with character level scaling - adding more cognitive load about exceptions being made to systems that are allegedly universal

That's an argument.

Tbh I've been carried away, by it being so good in the early game, that wanted it to be at least half as good in the late game.
 

I disagree. If you were limited to the same abilities at level 1 when you got to level 20, then yeah, sure. But one of the consequences of getting higher level in a game like this is you get more options. So an AL1 restore or AL3 nature's balm do not need to scale proportionally to health as you get up to level 20 to still be useful at level 20 - instead of being your only heal, they increasingly becomes part of a larger toolkit of options.

Example with Restore is a good one.

But still something feels off. I mean AL1 Restore is not something I would be relying in the late game. But I would still rely on stuff like Elemental Endurance and Racial Resistances being as usefull as in the early game.

The good thing through, that aside from PL progression, character can aquire items that increase his might and healing done/taken during his journey, which can almost double the effective healing. So you are speaking about: 10 + 10% per PL, where PL is that of a single class, and benefits from potion of ascention, prestige and other PL bonuses?

Also iirc Silver Tide has no keywords atm, leave it at that?
Additionally: do you think having one racial is enough for them?
 

But let's take the Improved Critical and examine the "+10% Crit Damage" in 3 scenarios:
1). Fighter with 15 MIG, superb weapon, using Penetrating Strike. On crit that's: 2.05 damage coefficient that becomes 2.15. That's a +4.8% damage increase... which occurs only on crit.
2). Rogue with 10 MIG, superb weapon, sneak attack + deathblows, devastating blow vs 25%hp. On crit that's: 4.7 that becomes 4.8. And that's a +2% damage increase... which occurs only on crit.
3). Wizard with 18 MIG, 7 PL casting a rank 4 spell. On crit that's 1.64, which becomes 1.74. That's a +6% damage increase. But than again, what's your crit rate in a challenging encounter?

There's a couple of interrelated issues here. The first is that these are funges of math, because you're not actually looking at the net effect.

Case 1: a fighter with might 15, superb weapon, penetrating strike is better seen as having a graze/hit/crit coefficient of .87x, 1.85x, and 2.1x which become .87x, 1.85x, and 2.2x with improved crit. This can be as little as a +0% increase in net damage (in cases where you can never crit) to as much as ~3% (in cases where you always crit). So in this respect I think you're overstating the effect.

Rumble/grumble :)
2.2x/2.1x~= 1.047
2.15x/2.05~= 1.048
Or I am missing something?
 

Re: potent empower, I could maybe follow along that potent empower needs a buff or accurate empower needs a nerf because as it stands they are roughly in line with each other, but accurate empower is more generally useful than either potent or penetrating (or even lasting). I would probably advocate nerfing accurate empower a bit (+8 acc instead?) and making lasting empower effect durational effect instead of just afflictions/inspirations (many martial classes will have very few of these making this talent all the more marginal).

Sounds reasonable.
 

Fighter
1. Please do not adjust deflection bonuses. Deflection is already a weird stat because of its increasing returns and its general murk/meaninglessness for many non-optimized-for-deflection character builds. I don't think +4 -> +6 meaningfully makes this more generally useful and only helps out the high deflection builds all the more. If you want to make it more generally useful, maybe adding a hit->graze chance would be better (high deflection builds aren't going to be hit all that much anyway).
2. I think this is way too good. In even slightly metagamed scenarios this basically seems like it can mean a fighter is immune to crits. I also have to ask - what is the purpose of this change? Is it just trying to de-murk % chance of happening effects? Because this does not seem like it's explicitly intended as a nerf or a buff but rather a lateral change.
3. I think we should be really really careful about making it easier to regenerate class resources. Same with paladin Virtuous Triumph, and arguably this is an easier condition to meet/metagame. I don't see any systematic polish reason why these should be buffed - I personally argued for so long to make existing effects weaker over several patches.

1. Ok, point taken.
2. The purpose is to have a decent effect for rank 8 passive. And atm, Critical Defense is in a weird spot. If a fighter doesn't want to get critted, he rises defenses. And the higher defenses he has, the lower effect this Critical Defense provides. For example fighter has a 10% chance to get critted by enemy X. Taking Critical Defense does not cover this 10% window; but instead, will proc on 10% of cases on those 10% of attacks; effectively reducing the chance to be critted from 10% to 9%. Yay.
3. Regarding Virtous Triumph: resouce generation tied to onKill, is generally limited by amount of enemies. On average there seem to be 6-8 enemies in an encounter. If paladin delivers killing blow to each enemy, on average he will get 1.5-2 zeal. Now, the problem is, paladin in a party rarelly finishes even 50% of enemies (in my experience it is closer to 15%), plus killing the last enemy does nothing.
Although... there are some shenanigans with killing friendly summons. And imo, Virtuous Triumph should not work of those.
As for Bonus Discipline talent: what do your propose?

#53
MaxQuest

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1. please no. Riposte is already a weird ability in that it is either virtually useless or extremely powerful. Instead of leaning into this more by providing what is essentially a win-more effect, i'd rather flatten this variability (that basically mandates metagaming) and provide a % riposte chance on grazes as well (even if lower than the % riposte chance on miss).
2. What would Perplexing Sap do? I think Sap is fine as it is, Perplexing Sap is fundamentally broken though. I would and have happily taken Sap as a skill, but after one ugly run where I discovered just how borked Perplexing Sap is, I will never upgrade. (maybe Perplexing Sap should be a redesign and that redesign could mean knocking the opponent asleep and when they wake they are hobbled and confused. A developer noted on my reported bug for Perplexing Sap that this was on their list of abilities that need a revisit so they are aware that it is also broken, but I'm guessing they just can't spare the time to retool it.)
4a. (lol at paying special attention to the cipher interaction. not judging, i paid special attention to the priest suggestions.)
5. I actually don't think it's too big a deal that flanked suppresses low stacks of confounding blind (mentioned as such in the bug forum thread), but this change smells to me like another hack, because it's possible that the designer who implemented this ability forgot that flanked suppresses confounding blind's early effects (or maybe flanked was added into perception affliction later in design and the interaction here was forgotten). I don't have another good suggestion though unless we're willing to go really strong or change the effect altogether, because with the current flanked/perception afflction/stacking system the ability at its core just doesn't work. (Go really strong: make each stack -10 deflection, so the first hit is equivalent to flanked, and it's all upside from there, cap at like 5 stacks. Change the effect altogether: one stack is -1 AR. So the first hit is a no-op (since Flanked also provides -1 AR), and it's all upside from there, though less generally obscenely strong as the previous suggestion)

1. Sounds reasonable. Would you suggest a specific chance?
2. The same thing it did before. When the confused enemy hits one of his allies, that one becomes confused too. I am ok with redefign of it though.
4a. ^^ mindstalker is already squishy in terms of hp; coming closer + extra micro kinda should net some reward)
5. Iirc -1 AR from flanked stacks with active debuffs like Rending Smash and Rust Armor. I don't know yet, why -10 deflection doesn't behave as passively. Personally I am ok with it being left as is; set to passive; or have a faster stacking progression. Although I have a slight preference towards the last two options.
 

Wizard
1. I fully agree that Kalakoth is way too weak, but I prefer a less-murky debuff (to me it's murky because it's a bunch of effects that don't seem like they are connected) of just a deeper accuracy penalty.
2. Ghost Blades is fine as is. It is a party-friendly effect that also debuffs. It does not need a buff.
3. Probably better to shrink cast time. The effect and duration seem like in a good place for AL2, it is just weird that it has such a lengthy cast time considering basically every other wizard buff. I feel like this spell got missed in that one patch where they shrunk cast times for litanies/prayers and even Eldritch Aim.

1. Check
2. Check
3. Check

 
Btw, with all the feedback, here's the rev2 of the preliminary list:

Spoiler

P.S. Feel free to suggest/argument what to cut/add/edit next.

Edited by MaxQuest, 07 March 2019 - 08:50 AM.


#54
thelee

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Hazards aren't consistently affected by many things but the big one is keyword interactions (so wall of fire and warding seal don't benefit from Scion of flame or heart of the storm)

 
Then it's clearly a bug, becose all these abilities have proper keywords (Punishment and Fire/Electricity) in both abilities.gamedatabundle and attacks.gamedatabundle. I guess something in the code prevents game from reading/using these keywords.
 
U can create a topic in Technical support and write about it. If someone haven't done it already...

 

 
I've reported hazard issues sooooooo many times. And keyword interaction is just one aspect. All hazard effects do less damage than stated in tool-tip (which is odd considering tool-tips are auto-generated), they don't get PL scaling for damage, they don't get empower bonus for damage, etc. Hazards were also extremely weird and buggy in PoE1, you'd think they'd have learned their lesson for Deadfire, but... (From what someone else mentioned in one of my bug reports, it's not that the ability is missing stuff, it's that the ability creates a separate hazard effect, and it's that effect that is missing keywords or stat interactions).
 

@thelee: Well, my examples that added 1 spell per trinket were just examples. As I said I can totally see trinkets that only add one single spell - or two or three. Not necessarily one per PL progression. And als not necessarily at the usual PL. You could do a trinket that adds a PL 8 spell to your PL 6 or so... endless possibilities basically. ;)
A trinket named "Book of Prayers " that only adds the Prayer and Linany spells and gives them +1 PL could be a thing.
 
I also would like to add "unique" spells that only come with that trinket (I love the unique grimoires). That, added with some "special" features like bonus PL for certain keywords (+2 PL to punishment or whatever), bonus durations, bigger AoE, you name it - should solve the problem that some spell levels of the Priest and his spell selections are very narrow and motivate to use some spells that you normally wouldn't consider. Ot take a route with your build you didn't consider before. 
 
Same with Druids: no need to give them a 1:1 copy of the grimoire mechanics, but add some nice trinkets that are cool, fitting and help them a bit to develop more specific build ideas/routes that are fun. For example: currently there's not much motivation to build a Decay-Druid (not a single item with special Decay bonus afaik - besides Chromopr. Staff that does +1 PL to Acid) while Beast/Plant Druids (Spine of Thicket Green, Ancient), Healer Druids (Lifegiver, Spine of Thicket Green, diverse +healing items), Summons Druid (Ancient, Animancy Cat) and Elemental Druids (Fury, Fire PL bonus gear, Storms PL bonus gear, Shock PL bonus gear) get all the love. Hence my example ot the shrinkhead. 
 
Of course it would be nice if we could find a special approach for both class-trinkets that seperates them from each other (and grimoires) a bit but still keeps things consistent and kind of uniform.


yeah, I could be down with something like that. if Obsidian feels like doing some new content...



#55
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Ahh, I found some other suggestions I'd made in a different post, many of which would transpose well here:

 

https://forums.obsid...ches/?p=2087105

 

Game could still use a few more unique wands, the ones that exist are either late-game or build-specialized.

 

I'd replace miss-to-graze on flails entirely with a best of crush/slash damage -- it doesn't make a *huge* amount of sense but it's at least conceptually possible, there's a hole in the weapons that crush/slash could fit (warhammers being already crush/pierce), and miss-to-graze is so awful that it's basically not possible to make it good -- even at really high, like, 75% miss to graze bonus, you're still mathematically worse than any other weapon class bonus. It needs replacement not tweaking. 

 

I'd change the trigger to release the 'faction enemy" ships -- they're impossible for most people to see in most playthroughts due tot he weird way factions work. I would change them so they trigger and appear on the map when you have slain all unique named ships belonging to the respective factions.

 

I'd still like to see a unique Vailian jacket style armor.

 

I'd like the game to remember what speed I set the walking and the combat on when I  start up the game. 

 

I agree on the mental binding improvement. Maybe even up to 8 seconds. 

 

Haunting Chains needs a large AoE. Compare with tier 5 Wizard spell Enervating Terror (1.5 m radius terrify, weakened). For Haunting Chains to be worthwhile it has to be, at minimum, an AoE terrify with the same radius as Secret Horrors, which is a tier 3 power with a 2.5 m radius. 



#56
thelee

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@MaxQuest (boy this thread is getting hard to quote/parse, so here's some specific responses):

Riposte - currently it's 25% on miss, right? I propose something like a 15% chance on miss or graze. I think my original idea of having a separate chance for miss and graze is unnecessarily complicated. But maybe it's unavoidable considering TB's very huge graze range.

Sabre/Stiletto - I also strongly disagree with these changes. I also disagree with the assessment that the +50% recovery time penalty is not worth it for damage dealers. It is definitely worth it in most underpenetration changes. But I mostly disagree because not suffering a +50% recovery time penalty was something that was special to swords, and you're taking that away.

Perplexing Sap - in case you don't know, the reason why this ability is broken is because "confused" means that you don't distinguish between ally/enemy... including for the perplexing sap ability. So you actually end up basically confusing/hobbling the entire battlefield (yourself included) from this. It's awful and one should never upgrade Sap. That's why I'm proposing leaving Sap alone and re-designing Perplexing Sap to be something less stupid, because even Obsidian has acknowledged that Perplexing Sap is an ability they wanted to revisit.

Prone - I mentioned this in passing, but I strongly disagree with lengthening the actual prone-on-ground duration. Prone is not hard CC and we shouldn't blur the line with it. It's a stronger interrupt (+50% interrupt time on a perfect interrupt, can be conditionally much better against fast enemies). The only thing I would change about prone is to make the actual interrupt effect +3s instead of +2s like a standard interrupt (so you're proned for the same duration but the recovery time is now 3s instead of 2s) because it seems like an unnecessary complication/murk about interrupt vs prone.

Seals - I really don't think they need adjustment, I think they need bug fixing. By "hack" I mean "a fragile workaround". If hazard effects ever get fully fixed, I think seals become gangbusters (except for repulsing seal) and they definitely don't need a 3s cast time. I could get down with repulsing seal having a 3s cast time though, since the out-of-combat cast is pretty negligible, and the distinction between it and pillar of faith at AL2 is very murky in combat (raise your hands if you knew that repulsing seal prones on graze vs pillar's prone on hit, and hands up if you knew that repulsing seal gets +2 acc/PL instead of +1 acc/PL for pillar of faith) and so it would help differentiate it without being notably that much more powerful. (Note that everything I say about seals also applies to other hazard effects, which include some wizard walls and I think a druid effect or two).

Kalakoth - I actually don't think -10 acc and -10 reflex make it that much more usable. Again I reiterate that a stronger single acc debuff (-15 or -20) is more usable for AL1. edit - for that matter priest Barb's is only barely useable and has longer range and is -10 all defenses and wizards really should be better at this kind of effect than priests at this level I think.

Resource generation - given that there exists a paladin talent that unconditionally grants +1 resource and that costs an ability point, conditional resource generation seems gamely targeted at 0-2 resources for a typical fight with minor metagaming (hence me sayign so for Virtuous Triumph in a different comment). I would think that the current fighter talent is close to this range--albeit requires particular metagaming so you don't have an anti-synergy going on, and has higher potential upside than Virtuous Triumph. If there's one thing I would fix, it'd be the aforementioned anti-synergy - a Barbarian gets special "on-being-crit" effect because they actually are expected to get lower deflection on top of having low inherent deflection, whereas fighters have inherently high deflection and have a lot of passive boosters. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is a moon godlike-type effect where you get +1 discipline the first time you are dropped a health category. Maybe that's too good, but seems to me you limit the upside (like paladin Virtuous Triumph) and it's a little bit less anti-synergy and also a bit less murky (low probability odds for impactful events strikes me as murky).

Edited by thelee, 07 March 2019 - 09:12 AM.


#57
thelee

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Also, re: moon godlike scaling:
 

The good thing through, that aside from PL progression, character can aquire items that increase his might and healing done/taken during his journey, which can almost double the effective healing. So you are speaking about: 10 + 10% per PL, where PL is that of a single class, and benefits from potion of ascention, prestige and other PL bonuses?

 
Yeah, that's why I want to push for making things more integrated systematically into the game, instead of creating parallel effects. I think Bellower subclass showed just how poorly chanters are integrated into PL scaling to their detriment. If a Moon Godlike can improve their healing with improved might, Prestige, or Potion of Ascension or heck, the Heart-Chime Amulet (+1 PL for moon godlikes at night, seems like a perfect match), that seems to me a better scenario than either their current fixed 10 healing or a separate character-level scaling.

Like I said, ideally also chanter chants would also use some sort of PL scaling, so that PL scaling is more impactful for them (as befits a caster) and also doesn't create a weird situation where multiclass chanters can chant just as well as single-class chanters.
 
I'll probably add more responses throughout the day or two, but those are the big ones I wanted to mention real fast.

Edited by thelee, 07 March 2019 - 09:05 AM.


#58
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Reminder about Riposte: It had a 30% (!) chance to trigger on graze in PoE. 



#59
Phenomenum

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Reminder about Riposte: It had a 30% (!) chance to trigger on graze in PoE.

 

Yes, but in PoE 1 Minimum Roll to-Graze was 15 so it was far easy to land a Graze.

If we go for systematical approach then:

 

PoE 1: 20% when Missed, 30% when Grazed.

If Rogue Deflection higher than attacker Acc by 50 points (scenario when 100% of incoming attacks leads to Grazes or Hits and Riposte will have chance to trigger after every attack), then all incoming attacks have 30% chance to Miss and 70% to Graze.

Simple calculations will shows us, that Misses will trigger Ripost in 6% of all attacks: (30 * 0.2 = 6); Grazes will trigger Ripost in 21% of all attacks (70 * 0.3 = 21)

21 + 6 = 27% of all attacks will trigger Riposte (in scenario without Hits and Crits).

If Acc = Defl (15% Miss, 35% Graze, 50% Hit) then: (15 * 0.2) + (35 * 0.3) = 3 + 10.5 = 13.5% of all attacks will trigger Riposte.

 

So this is Ripost efficiency in PoE 1.

 

PoE 2: 30% when Missed.

In the same scenario (without Hits and Crits) all incoming attacks have 50% chance to Miss and 50% to Graze.

Simple calculations... :wowey:

Calculations... :wowey:

... :wowey:

... 15% of all attacks will trigger Riposte (in scenario without Hits and Crits).

If Acc = Defl (25% Miss, 25% Graze, 50% Hit) then: (25 * 0.3) = 7.5% of all attacks will trigger Riposte.

 

So this is Ripost efficiency in PoE 2.

 

 

Conclusion 1: Ripost in PoE 2 almost twice weaker and barely worth 1 ability point.

Conclusion 2: if we add +25% Miss to Graze for Ripost then total efficiency will be 27,5% (in scenario without Hits and Crits) - similar with PoE 1.

If Acc = Defl, then another 6,25% will be added >>> 13.75% of all incoming attacks will trigger Riposte - similar with PoE 1.

 

I'm done.

 

P.S. Reminder for MaxQuest: if some Ripost adjustments will be added in final list, don't forget to add this calculations. Or some another calculations. For Obsidian.


Edited by Phenomenum, 07 March 2019 - 08:03 PM.


#60
Ensign

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Stuff off the top of my head:

Resolve 3% duration -> 5% duration. I think we've seen this doesn't matter for min-maxed solo runs where you stack immunity anyway, but matters for nudging its value in parties and for less optimized parties. More relevant is how it would move resolve debuffs from +15% to +25% duration, increasing their importance. (Doesn't go through double inversion, irrelevant)

Swords and Greatswords - may just be me but they pay far too high a price for their two damage types. High pen type weapons only lose 1 pen for dual type (see mace vs hammer; estoc vs morningstar), but low pen types lose 1 pen *and* the additional bonus. I'd stick something minor (+3 / +5 deflection vs melee) here, it just irks me that the iconic weapons are under budget.

Cipher:

Biting Whip - like the raw lash suggestion. Would need to be at least a +30% marginal vanilla bonus for me to look at it.

Mental Binding is fine as is. A lot of power budget in the immobilize. Hard CC is strong yo.

Psychovampiric Shield: Steadfast -> Resolute. While interesting for the big stacking will debuff, would be an effective tool for tankier builds with a small change.

Fractured Volition: Hobbled -> Staggered. I look at this if it does -20 Fort.

Puppet Master: 4s recovery -> 3s recovery. Consistency with WoT, RL.

Body Attunement: additional -10 / +10 deflection.

Mind Lance: interrupt on graze, as suggested.

Wild Leech: I would just give it a 5m radius (foe), making it effectively a better Phantom Foes.  Back and forth if the inspiration should be AoE as well - how fast would that turn into a 'stack all the things' ability?

Mind Plague: 3c, 3r -> 0.5c, 4r. Underappreciated spell, but doesn't need to be slower than Secret Horrors.

Stasis Shell: 3c 3r -> 0.5c, 4r. Need to be able to react quickly, otherwise why not just Puppet Master.

Haunting Chains: 2.5m radius.

Agree on Defensive Mindweb not breaking on graze.

Time Parasite is fine. The debuff isn't very exciting and the speed buff, as good as it feels, loses a lot of its sheen once you price in the 5s cast and recovery.

Ranger:

Wounding Shot: +10 accuracy. Accurate Wounding Shot is a good skill, but the base version is a waste of resources compared to the other 1 resource attacks.

Heal Companion: 3c -> 0.5c, bond 2 -> 1, range 4m -> 6m, duration 6s -> 8s. Throw the kitchen sink at it. Healing your own pet should be at least worth considering over just offloading that job onto the party healer.

Revive Companion: 100 health. Again, should be more accessible and powerful than using a general purpose revive.

Hardy Companion: Hardy -> Robust

Vengeful Companion: Cannot die for 15s.

Master's Call: 4r -> 0r.

Play Dead: 4r -> 0r.


Good thread concept. More later.


Edited by Ensign, 08 March 2019 - 12:01 AM.






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